VA - Hannah Elizabeth Graham, 18, Charlottesville, 13 Sept 2014 - #13

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In virtually every serial predator/killer abduction case that I have researched in the past six years, there has been one common denominator that crops up again and again; meth/molly..jmo

Just an FYI:

What Is MDMA (Ecstasy or Molly)?
http://teens.drugabuse.gov/drug-facts/mdma-ecstasy-or-molly

Did not know that. But this is not yet a serial predator/killer case yet. For now it's a single person episode, IMO, most likely a pick up gone wrong, and the predator not backing off so that the victim has not come back and is ilkely both physically damaged and dead. THis sort of thing, one step from date rape, IMO, happens a lot. Pick up someone drunk or otherwise out of it, and resistance is low, so have sex. I'm sure a lot of times the victim might not even report it if memory is hazy. But my guess here is that something happened to bring it to the next level, and so Hannah was harmed or killed. Or he might have dumped her off somewhere after wards and someone else finished her off. Or she might still be alive.

You think meth was in this case? Think JM a user? I really don't know or have any thoughts on it. Would it make any difference in outcomes?
 
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No one needed to put anything in her drinks. It's been something that LE and others have freely said that she was likely to have been heavily intoxicated. UVA should be putting some pressure on those student "dinners" and other events that Hannah had left in that condition. She made herself vulnerable and flagrent breaking of underage drinking and/or other mind alterning substanced were in the picture. She and her friends put her in that confused state with alcohol and she under the legal drinking age. And yes, it's possible that she did have a drink or a smoke or take some drugs off tape at anytime. But it was a given that hse drank too much. Really those students at that party.....letting a drunk walk out on her own at that time of the night, There shoud be reprimand at very least for that. It's just that it pales, in the seriousness of what happened afterwards and what might have happened.

It happened to my daughter once at a frat party. For how smart they think they are, they are stupid. They don't realize implications involved. My daughter was distressed, crying unsure of where she was and thankfully called me. I settled her down, had her look at street signs and landmarks to get her back to dorm.
 
NANCY GRACE

Person of Interest in Missing UVA Student Case Disappears

Aired September 23, 2014 - 20:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Grainy surveillance video emerging after a teen co-ed seemingly vanishes into thin air. Tonight,

after combing through hours and hours of tape, a mystery man spotted following along with co-ed Hannah. He refuses to speak with police. And

still no sign of missing teen co-ed. As cops swoop in for a second search warrant in the last hours, will DA confirm Hannah last in a nearby

apartment? Tonight, where is Hannah, and who knows what happened? .....

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1409/23/ng.01.html
 
Thanks for reposting that JJW. I went to bed last night thinking about "intent to defile" and am still stuck on it this morning. Sorry if this has already been discussed. It is impossible to get caught up on these threads.

What proof could LE have that he intended to "defile"? It seems like for most of us defile=rape. So has some people mentioned, did he have pictures of her on his phone or a comment made in a text message. Or maybe they found some date rape drugs. I can't think of many things they could find that would indicate he intended to rape her.

But the definition is much broader. I interpret it as the intent to exploit or to use for personal gain in some way. IMO Sexual gratification is a form of personal gain. However, it could be they have evidence that he could have abducted her for some form of financial gain. Do they have information that connects him to prostitution, human trafficking or the sex trade?

There was a report of a possible sighting in Wilmington, NC. There has recently been a few news stories about some girls being held for human trafficking in Wilmington. It's a long shot, but if that is case it's a good thing for Hannah, it means there is hope that she is alive.

You're conflating two different crimes.

Abduction with intent to defile = Abduction with intent to sexually molest.

Abduction "of any person with the intent to extort money or pecuniary benefit" is a different crime from Abduction "with intent to defile."
 
Well after watching this last press conference and seeing the look on Longo's face and the dampening of his mood/manner, I am so sad for Hannah. I'm not what I would call a "lucky" person but if I had to "win" anything right now, I want to win at having her be tied up and waiting for rescue like someone posted earlier.

I know I can't speak for other people, but so many saw Hannah so very well intoxicated and stumbling, how difficult would it have been for some good people to stop her and sit her down and talk with her as they called the cops to get her home? It bothered me to see that group of guys walking and looking like they're laughing at her, I am reminded of the words of Brittanee Drexel's "guy friend" who said he wasn't anyone's babysitter.

Then I think about a couple of young men (teens I think) who, riding their bicycles, chased down a child abductor in the act and freeing the child. There are plenty of good people out there in our world! Although a very slim chance statistically, I hope for Hannah.

bbm

He tried to help but she said no. Of course he had no idea what was going to happen and probably feels like crap, even though he tried.

Late Friday night, investigators say Graham and a friend went to a party just a few blocks from her home.

"She had been drinking quite a bit," said Charlottesville Police Captain Gary Pleasants. "She told him that she was leaving and going home. He asked if he could walk her home and she said no she was fine. He stayed and she left."


http://www.wric.com/story/26539767/crews-continue-search-for-missing-uva-student
 
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It happened to my daughter once at a frat party. For how smart they think they are, they are stupid. They don't realize implications involved. My daughter was distressed, crying unsure of where she was and thankfully called me. I settled her down, had her look at street signs and landmarks to get her back to dorm.

Right. She CALLED you.........why did Hannah not even call anyone?? It's as if she wasn't lost or scared. JMO
 
I agree. At age 32 this wasn't his first rodeo. It's always been in the back of my mind as to why a 32 year old man is well known in an area where many younger students hang out. I pray they find him ASAP!

He drove a cab for a while, he hangs out , he's been there for a while, he's been working at the UVA hospital the last couple fo year. He's a big guy and doesn't seem to be a recluse. I don't see anything unusual about him until he crossed the line. He probably has picked up women, many likely in states of confusin from drink or substance abuse, or depressed and made moves successfully on them. ALong with a number of men. It's common practice and no big surprise. Hanpens a lot everywhere. Nothing new here. But a very firm line, unquesitonably a line was crossed here, when his prey did not come back alive.

Perhaps other women will step up and identify him as doing the same to them, but that they were let go, and chose not to pursue the matter because their memories of it all were not good, didn't want to go through the brutal gauntlet of a rape accusation, trial, etc. But LE and common data can tell us precisely how many such cases were reported in this area with someone of his scrip, and areas where he hung out. The ones that have been high profile have DNA in waiting, so if he was the perp there, it will be soon so identified..

What's different here, is that this victim did not come back home.
 
This connection between the Alexis Murphy case and the burnt orange car is important and has everything to do with the HG case IMO. There is only one person who knows if there is a connection JM. I would be so relieved to have a serial killer off the street. As someone said this morning, probable cause is a low bar to pass, but I think LE in this case have to pursue this suspect. The differences of opinion on this board alone suggest a fair trial is possible. (Me -55 y.o. female attorney in VA with 19 y.o. daughter at VCU).

Alexis Murphy's killer (and likely Samantha Ann Clarke's killer) is already off the streets and in jail.
 
I'm a newbie, so thanks in advance for your patience with me. IMO, with all the walking/running HG did, I think that probably helped to sober her up. I would think if I were as inebriated as is speculated she was, I'd have just sat down on the curb and given up on finding out where I was. My thoughts are by the time she reached the mall, she was coherent enough to be aware of her surroundings. I also think that HG, being intelligent and kind, was probably polite to whomever approached her. She may not have wanted to be outwardly rude or off-putting if she didn't initially feel threatened. Perhaps it was suggested she go into Tempo to have a drink (maybe even water), and after talking w JW, was comfortable enough to leave with him. She was tired after coming down from an evening of drinking then walking all over town. If he offered a ride home, she may have accepted. Maybe it's wishful thinking, but also in my scenario I think she got into his car, fell asleep/passed out, he may have decided to take photographs, then when they arrived near her apartment, she was still in a deep sleep and he didn't know what to do with her. Hopefully he dropped her somewhere, thought I guess by know she would have shown up. Having graduated from UVa and having a daughter who almost enrolled there as a first year this fall, this situation has made me a more nervous mother than I already was. I'm trying not to think about the worst case scenario.

Welcome Bearmama, I think it was likely something very much along these lines. Poor Hannah :(
 
Not everyone here is out with pitchforks and torches to get JM. The charge does not come as a surprise, no, because unfortunately things work out a certain way, in certain scenarios, and this is unfolding pretty much as typical. The odds from the get go, when Hannah was considered missing, sadly, was that someone abuducted her, picked her up and did her harm. That she was disoriented, confused, lost, in a haze and did not show up where she was planning to go and was in contact with friends at that destination giving signs she was trying to get there is a factor. So, it was no surprsie she was picked up by someone who might have wanted to take advantage of her situation. That it's been over a week since she's shown up makes it statistically likely she is not alive. I wish LE had been able to question JM earlier, just in case, he did drop her off alive, somewhere remote, If she was alive and hurt at then, time was of the essence. LE should have bent over backwards even at the expense of getting a conviction later on to get info on her whereabouts as it should have been all about Hannah. Maybe they did. I made some critical remarks that it did not so appear, but we may never know that part. I'd really be upset with LE right now if I were Hannah's family, because I do suspect that not all that could have been done with JM to get info was done. If Hannah is found and was possilby alive this weekend or later....well, I'd be upset.

Without a body, it's still going to be difficult to get a conviction for a murder charge in this case unless the forensic evidence as well as circumstantial is overwhelming as in the Alexis Murphy case. That JM seems to be neglgent, sloppy, messy from the way he keeps his car and his paperwork, there is probably a good chance, he was careless in clearing out evidence of having Hannah in his car. BUt he HAD to have known he was seen by a number of people with Hannah that night and by people who knew her. He HAD to know that LE had his car as a target with that search warrent. Yet, he did not behave cautiously. He has said very little to LE, in part to the legal advice he did get, and with an experienced attorney who already spoke to him and who is no doubt following this case with more inside info than we have, he is likely to say much of anything. He does not have to do so. That often is another reason not to charge a person--when you need info, it's easier to get BEFORE he is a suspect when Miranda rights kick in. Doubt JM will say much even at trial.

No doubt other possibliities will be presented such as consensual sex if there is forensic evidence of that activity. Attorney can maintain client did have consensual sex and then dropped her off at some locale and that she so insisted and seemed just fine. Until and unless body is found, it could be a possiblilty. BUt GPS features on phones and phone records are going to make certain scenarios impossible and highly unlkely. DA has to show proof beyond a reasonable doubt, not dot every i, cross every t and prove that it's the only possiblility to get a conviciton, but there may be men on the jury who pick up drunk girls all of the time, put the moves on her and often score, who may feel this was just another one fo those cases. And it might well have been, except Hannah never made it back. The charges might not even be there if Hannah had made it back. A line is crossed even beyond that of whether something is rape or not when the person disappears or is found injured, or dead.

As for the other cases, LE has DNA on file and that can be determined definitively. This forum has been good about not mixing the cases since it's just speculation at this point. For those case, it either is, or isn't , and hangs on a DNA match, not circumstantial evidence, liklihoods, looking like things. Hopefully posters refrain from overt discussion until and unless evidence shows the match.

This forum is really more for the victims and their loved ones, as it overtly says. I have to refrain from some of my opinions because I frankly am more an advocate for the rights of those accused, and am becoming increasingly concerned with how MSM and people, due the internet, social media are being whipped into frenzies before the facts are all in and the case is not clear. Looking at the facts carefully, I could not see anything other than a NOT GUILTY verdict for Casey Anthony, and unless i"m missing a lot of info, had I been on that jury, I'd have said the same It would have been a misstep in a justice system otherwise, looking at it objective and from the standoint of facts, not raw emotion. And I do believe personally that CA was in some way responsible for her baby's death. So, I agree that the DA still has an uphill climb to secure a conviction even with public opinion on his side.

GIven the released facts, I did feel there was a realistic chance that JM was not the perp. There had to be Hannah evidence with his things, and evidence of some sexual activity, IMO for those charges. Not just a "i gave her a ride, so yes, she was in the car" type of thing. Not just loose hairs, clothing, fibres. So at this point, it's hard to be a rationale person looking at the charges that LE put off making as long as they did, as convinced as they were that they had there man, to not assume that JM did not go down the typical path of these sort of cases.

And as far as any new development, for Hannah to be alive, is what I'd love to be next. Oh, how I so hope.

+1

This. Thank you for this.

/thread
 
Just a thought. I'm looking closely at JM's hair in new wanted poster. The top front inch or so and curly cue on top darker than the dreads. Quite a few black women use wigs. I'd like to ask those who know him and have seen him recently if they are sure it's all his hair. The front L looks like it's growing from the scalp. Bit the rest of it could possibly be attached. I bit but the color differences of hair caught my eye. I'm far from a dread expert.
:thinking:

I am far from a dread expert also, but my son does wear dreads. So for what its worth and my opinion only, the part of the hair that is dreaded is coated in something simular to wax, as new hair grows from the scalp it must then also be dreaded as it grows out. This might explain the difference in the 1 inch of hair being of a different texture and color. Hope that helps.
 
Right. She CALLED you.........why did Hannah not even call anyone?? It's as if she wasn't lost or scared. JMO

Apparently she was calling people. Maybe LE will release cell phone info. She was texting and calling. But Hannah was not in her right mind, had been drinking they say, and so likely were those she was calling. SOmeone should have told her to sit in a public spot and stay there and called campus security or the police,or someone with car go fetch her. BUt she might not have agreed, and there could have been repercussions she felt were important to avoid with LE or security getting involved because she was inebriated and underage. They would have likely run her in. Calling and talking though is not always the best thing in the wrong place, with the wrong people looking for prey. What happened to Hannah is really so typical that it's stereo typical. Getting picked up by the wrong person or abducted even. This happens a lot among young people, by the way. Usually no permanent harm done, but often enough some bad experience comes of it. Just usually not this exteme, though it's a possibility that always looms over this scenario. No one is surprised this happened. It was what was expected, sadly, that she got picked up, violated and ditched maybe not alive., probably not alive.
 
Maybe, but only the cctv footage, what's the point in circling the one in the news report? There has already been posters comparing this to JM's car, spoiler, placement of plates. It serves no purpose other than confuse.

Thanks. And sorry, I missed those posts. What makes the cctv footage more significant?
 
I was thinking earlier about the change in Longo. He looked fresh and enthusiastic at the start of this case. He looks exhausted now. I wonder if he's been able to switch off at all. I think it's amazing that he is so personally invested in this case and it reassures me that the officers under him will be giving 100% to get the correct outcome in this case. They don't want an easy conviction in my opinion. They want the RIGHT outcome, with Hannah found and the perpetrator locked up.
 
If I were the police I would be talking to JLMs old boss at the cab company and asking for his help in some of these out of the way areas he mentioned.

If all the cab drivers in the city of C-Ville got together and helped with the search while they were off duty they could cover an incredible amount of ground.

Not to mention the good publicity from such an act would go a long ways to erasing any negative connotation people may have about cab drivers due to JLM's association....no matter how tenuous.

Plus its the right thing to do if they have knowledge that can help the police in this case.

JMO
 
You're conflating two different crimes.

Abduction with intent to defile = Abduction with intent to sexually molest.

Abduction "of any person with the intent to extort money or pecuniary benefit" is a different crime from Abduction "with intent to defile."

Thank you for the clarification! I see it now. But I still wonder how they could know that he intended to rape her. What evidence could they have to prove it was rape and not consensual?
 
Here is a good link to read. Sorry I can't cut and paste it. http://books.google.com/books?id=zs...=difference intent to defile and rape&f=false

JMO

It is not illegal to pick up a pretty girl and take her home and have sex with her, as long as she consents it is fine.

Drunk people can not consent. Sex with a drunk person is considered rape. Hannah was very drunk.

Intent to defile could be:

He sent a txt to someone saying he had a drunk girl and he was going to have sex with her.

He purchased condoms after leaving Tempo.

He told a friend or the bartender that he was going to get laid that night.

LE found items of Hannah's clothing in his car or home, implying they had been removed for whatever reason.

LE found through his phone or computer that he is involved with pimps and prostitution and had abducted Hannah and passed her on to a pimp to be used as a prostitute.


I can't think of anything else that would fall under 'intent to defile'
 
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It happened to my daughter once at a frat party. For how smart they think they are, they are stupid. They don't realize implications involved. My daughter was distressed, crying unsure of where she was and thankfully called me. I settled her down, had her look at street signs and landmarks to get her back to dorm.

The key…SHE CALLED YOU! Great job mom! Thanks button wasn't enough.
 
I understand that some are really anxious to connect this case to others....but to make the connection, if there is one, we need to know what happened to Hannah. There are so many unknowns and no body has been discovered. If Hannah is discovered to be deceased,we need a forensic pathologist to tell us why and how she died. Perhaps, at some point thereafter there will be some fairly obvious connections to other cases. But using evidence from other cases (other than JM DNA) to solve Hannah's case is backwards, the way I see it. Let's stick to Hannah's investigation. JMO
 
This is important. I just confirmed police received the forensics report, which led to the defile charge Neal Augenstein via WTOP 7:56 PM yesterday

BBM. Another reason why Longo took no questions last night. I posted this on the last thread:

I think the "intent" charge means they found JLM's and Hannah's mixed DNA, specifically semen and vaginal fluid. I think the "abduction" charge is because he was last person to be seen with her and no one has seen or heard from her since, so it's highly unlikely that what they found resulted from consensual sex. While it's possible they did and she went on her way only to be abducted by someone else or met with an accident, those chances are pretty remote and so the CA feels he can now prosecute the case "beyond a reasonable doubt".

That is why IMO police have received at least preliminary results from DNA testing that show there was sexual contact between JLM and Hannah, but there is either no final result or they simply don't want to put that out there yet. Someone who works with noncriminal DNA posted on a prior thread posted these tests are done over and over to confirm final results.
 
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