VA - Nicole Lovell, 13, Blacksburg, 27 January 2016 #3 *Arrests*

[terracotta]

My son cannot even use shampoo or soap or toothpaste with gluten without hives and joint pain and swelling. The accidental exposure to gluten last week was through the makeup I was wearing.

People often say they are allergic to something when in fact, it just doesn't agree with them.

If it's a matter of discomfort for her only, I'm not inclined to be sympathetic for her one bit.


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Ugh I went through years of various symptoms. I had a high anti gladin...which is the protein in wheat. While I do not get the severe allergic symptoms, I do have many symptoms to make me feel very lethargic, brain fog, aches and pains like the flu, stomach pain, headaches etc. I don't have celiac. But since I had no help from any doctors I did much research and did my own elimination diet for a year. All the foods that I was sensitive to, were in the grass family. I had hives all over me and had allergy testing done when I was in college...I was allergic to grass and molds. They never even mentioned the food grasses (all grains are grasses).

There are many foods that are similar in their cell structures to wheat...such as coffee. So once you really get into studying and do food eliminations the whole thing put together starts to make sense.

Also wheat is in everything...cosmetics, soaps, shampoos, spices it is just crazy...you have to be very vigilant.


Many people have reactions to grains as they are genetically modified...the wheat today is not the wheat of 40 years ago.

Anyway O/T but no she can certainly eat the grains, but she just won't feel good. But it certainly would be difficult to even think of her discomfort....crickey....she planned a girls' murder

 

[Inthedetails]

bbm That's a true fact. With my oldest being a senior this year I see this going on so much with other kids and parents, especially. My DD has a pretty high GPA but I never realized how important a GPA is here in the US for college purposes. So I never cared or put pressure on her for it. She just got it because of her grades, and she got those because she actually loves to learn. I've never even put much of an emphasis on her grades either. I found it more important she was well rounded. She ended up (with) both. But it's really weird to see parents brag about their kids' GPA and straight A's and knowing the kid and you know they might be book smart but they're really not 'all that'. I'm just talking about a select few that are truly over the top and I'm not trying to humble brag or veiled brag about my kid but I'm seeing those kids and I'm just hoping they'll last in college.

Exactly. I've always seen grades and test scores as a side product of other things - like hard work, interest in the subject, self-discipline, love of learning. THOSE are the attributes that are worth cultivating....and then the grades will come. I'd rather have a student/friend/employee/co-worker who worked hard, was interested, had self-discipline, and loved to learned rather than someone who boasts about GPA.

An emphasis on grades is messed up. They mean next to nothing, imo. (Well, a D or an F tells me more than an A or B, so I guess that is useful in a way.)

 

[JeannaT]

Even if she did not actually committed the murder, IDK why wouldn't her charge be Murder 1 if she had a month to STOP all this, contact someone and save her life. A month is a long time to plan and execute a murder. Why is she not getting the same charge as DE?

You can't be charged with murder just because you believe strongly it's going to happen and you don't do anything to stop it.

If you help out, before or after, you can be charged as an accessory (as Natalie has been) but you can't be charged with the murder just because you believe someone is going to do it.

If the MSM articles are true, he's the one who killed Nicole and Natalie wasn't even present.

 

[Night-owl]

You can't be charged with murder just because you believe strongly it's going to happen and you don't do anything to stop it.

If you help out, before or after, you can be charged as an accessory (as Natalie has been) but you can't be charged with the murder just because you believe someone is going to do it.

If you were involved in the planning, you certainly can be charged with murder. I am going to speculate that kidnapping will be in the mix of crimes. And that makes it felony murder frosting on someone's gluten laden jail cake.

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[JeannaT]

I agree. While I would love to hear anything their peers have to say, it doesn't really help the situation. If they have something relevant to the case, they should tell LE.

A few years ago, someone in the media told me to only talk to the media if it served my purposes. If you need to get the word out about a missing person or a new business, talk to the media. In other words, use the media, don't let them use you. If there's nothing in it for you, nothing good can come of it - people will pick apart what you say and check you out online.

We have this great radio personality, Jeff Ward, who is ALWAYS amazed at people who want to grab the limelight and step in front of the cameras when something awful has happened. It never ends well, he says. This will not serve you. Shut thy face.

I agree. If some awful and lurid tragedy has happened and you have insider gossip or knowledge, keep it to yourself or spill it at a cocktail party but other than that, zip it.

 

[JeannaT]

If you were involved in the planning, you certainly can be charged with murder. I am going to speculate that kidnapping will be in the mix of crimes. And that makes it felony murder frosting on someone's gluten laden jail cake.

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I don't believe you can. You can be charged with accessory to murder, solicitation of murder, etc., but you can't be charged with murder if you weren't there. As I understand it.

edited to add: in some cases you can be charged if you weren't present, like in the case of poisoning if you planted the poison in the food but weren't there when it was ingested.

 

[thepeppers]

On December 13, NK posted a pic of that boy in front of the shower and called him BAE. The girl who says she talked to the RO commented, Your baby looks 25. NK said she was just trying to make "someone" jealous. Then the girl says "But yet you was dating a 20 year old."

NK eplies No I'm not I'm single and the girl responds "Honey I said "WAS"

I now remember seeing that exchange, I didn't realize the other girl was the one who claimed to have talked to the RO at school. That makes sense.

I really wish her parents had been more involved with checking her phone, I imagine they have an incredible amount of guilt and regret. I am also a mother of school age children, so I can understand not being up to date on the current tech trends of kids, and trusting that your kid is still a kid.

 

[wyome]

I am suspicious of these schools where like 80% of students have over 3.7 or whatever. It's been shown that the average GPA has risen significantly over the years. Did you know the average GPA in 1990 was 2.68, and now it's a 3.0? I think a lot of these kids are going to have a huge wake up call one day. Either in college (or the grade inflation might continue) or when they start looking for a job. Not that HS GPA matters at all after you enter college, but these young adults and their parents think they are "extraordinary" because of their ~straight A's~ and not all of them are.

So very true. College is a huge wake call for many students. My kid goes to an Ivy, and I remember getting a call from one of the university parents from our region prior to her first semester. It was mostly a welcome call, but she was very honest in gently warning us that the competition is fierce and that these students will see Cs and Ds on tests that they've never seen before, and that it will panic some children and to be prepared to support. Many kids don't know how to cope with the sudden slap that they're not all that anymore.

I wonder if DE stuggled with this. Someone mentioned that he was red shirted on the track team. Not sure what that means, but I don't think he was recruited or given a scholarship for running. Not sure what his grades were, but people sure weren't interviewing him weekly about what an amazing athelete he was. He was just another freshman in a large, isolated university, suddenly realizing that he's just not all that special. There are people smarter and there are better runners.

 

[JohnTate90210]

If you were involved in the planning, you certainly can be charged with murder. I am going to speculate that kidnapping will be in the mix of crimes. And that makes it felony murder frosting on someone's gluten laden jail cake.

From many years ago and the opposite end of the country, Charles Manson wasn't present at the Sharon Tate murder site but he was convicted of conspiracy to commit murder, if I remember right. It carried the death penalty. I'd think Virginia must have something along those lines otherwise you could hire a hitman and you'd only be an accessory.

 

[Night-owl]

No, you can't. You can be charged with accessory to murder, solicitation of murder, etc., but you can't be charged with murder if you weren't there. As I understand it.

I hire a hitman and race off to no where near. I'll still be charged with murder.

I drive the the car while my pal runs in to rob a bank. He kills a clerk. I'll be charged with murder.

I plan with someone how to lure a 13 year old out of her house (kidnapping) and where to hide the body. That's murder.

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[JeannaT]

I hire a hitman and race off to no where near. I'll still be charged with murder.

I drive the the car while my pal runs in to rob a bank. He kills a clerk. I'll be charged with murder.

I plan with someone how to lure a 13 year old out of her house (kidnapping) and where to hide the body. That's murder.

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Not likely. If you hire a hit, you'll be charged with solicitation of murder or conspiracy to murder.

I know in the case of the guy in the getaway care, some prosecutors are successful and some municipalities allow for charging everyone with the worst crime committed by the group, but that's unusual. Usually you get charged with what can be proven you did.

Which is as it should be. There are criteria that go with any legal charge, and when the criteria fit the behavior of the perpetrator, they should be charged with that. And not upcharged, because that rarely holds in court. The perpetrator is likely to get off scot free if the prosecutor tries to charge them for someone else's behaviors.

 

[Night-owl]

From many years ago and the opposite end of the country, Charles Manson wasn't present at the Sharon Tate murder site but he was convicted of conspiracy to commit murder, if I remember right. It carried the death penalty. I'd think Virginia must have something along those lines otherwise you could hire a hitman and you'd only be an accessory.

Manson is also guilty of murder in addition to conspiracy. Just looked it up. I'd say it's conspiracy only if not successful.

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[mayita]

Not likely. If you hire a hit, you'll be charged with solicitation of murder or conspiracy to murder.

IDK, like for example Charles Manson. He never actually killed anyone, he was not even there. Still went to jail for murder.

 

[thepeppers]

You cannot be charged with murder in Virginia if you are just an accessory, however often the sentencing for accessory to murder before the fact is the same as murder, 20 years TO life. So while the charge isn't the same, the penalty can be.

I am curious as to why the FBI is getting involved. I wonder if they are going to make a federal case out of this. In Virginia the two barely miss one of the capital murder qualifications, the murder of a 13 year old is a capital crime if the perpetrator is 21 or over. But that is state law. Since this involved a juvenile and they took the body over state lines, maybe that is where the FBI comes in. But sometimes when under state law you cannot get a capital crime or the death penalty, the feds step in. For example in the early 2000s when the DC/MD/Va area had the sniper killing people, Maryland wanted to try him first but they don't have the death penalty, so the feds threatened to take the case on federal charges unless Maryland agreed to let Virginia try him first as a capital crime for one of the Virginia shootings (I think the one in Fairfax), so if Virginia got him first he was found guilty of capital murder and sentenced to death. I'm just guessing here.

 

[Missoni]

Even if she did not actually committed the murder, IDK why wouldn't her charge be Murder 1 if she had a month to STOP all this, contact someone and save her life. A month is a long time to plan and execute a murder. Why is she not getting the same charge as DE?

I agree! If you plan or are a part of planning a murder and the murder happens surely you'll be charged with murder too? If I loaded a gun and gave it to you to shoot, surely I'm just as guilty?

MOO

 

[Hollzzz]

So very true. College is a huge wake call for many students. My kid goes to an Ivy, and I remember getting a call from one of the university parents from our region prior to her first semester. It was mostly a welcome call, but she was very honest in gently warning us that the competition is fierce and that these students will see Cs and Ds on tests that they've never seen before, and that it will panic some children and to be prepared to support. Many kids don't know how to cope with the sudden slap that they're not all that anymore.

I wonder if DE stuggled with this. Someone mentioned that he was red shirted on the track team. Not sure what that means, but I don't think he was recruited or given a scholarship for running. Not sure what his grades were, but people sure weren't interviewing him weekly about what an amazing athelete he was. He was just another freshman in a large, isolated university, suddenly realizing that he's just not all that special. There are people smarter and there are better runners.

Red shirting just means you don't play sports your freshman year--you practice but don't actually compete. It gives you an extra year to participate (5 years vs. 4) so maybe he was planning on taking longer than usual to graduate?

 

[danzn16]

Geez, why is info from the hearing today coming out in dribs and drabs?!?

Keepers described some of her problems in her own words.

Her father also was questioned, and he described her having an appendectomy sometime in the fall. He said fellow student 18-year-old David Eisenhauer took her to the hospital.

http://www.newscenter1.tv/story/31141164/the-latest-bail-denied-for-student-charged-in-girls-death

Keepers also said she's not getting her full medication and is gluten intolerant and can't eat jail food.

:violin:

If you have a special diet and allergies maybe you should try extra hard to never be imprisoned. You get what you get in prison, your body's dislike of it is just nature's way of punishing you further. Whatever!


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[mayita]

The FBI is involved because DE and NK crossed state lines when they dumped the body in NC from VA.

 

[Night-owl]

From Wikipedia, Contract murders
...
Furthermore, both the actual killer and the person who paid the killer can be found guilty of*murder. Indeed, the acts of merely negotiating and paying for a contract killing (that is never actually carried out) are themselves punishable as*attempted murder....



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[JeannaT]

I agree it does occasionally happen. It doesn't appear that Natalie's involvement will rise to the charge of murder, and she hasn't been charged with that yet.

I did try to find a case quickly on google that someone who drove the getaway car was charged with murder, and couldn't do it although I only spent a couple minutes. Someone who was driving a getaway car and struck and killed a baby in a stroller was charged with murder, but it was because he struck the child.