VA - Nicole Lovell, 13, Blacksburg, 27 January 2016 #6 *Arrests*

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I think both of you are right in that there was another motive. As other posters here, have identified, there are several factors that go way beyond the norm for similar situations. For example:

- If threatned with exposure, nearly all sex predators "run, hide and deny". Turning on the victim is very rare.

- When they do turn on the victim, they do it in a moment of panic: "She is turning me in, I need to take drastic action- tomorrow night!" DE and NK planned the murder over a three week period.

- Being the son of at least semi affluent parents, DE had plenty of options including good lawyers. He is articulate, almost a minor himself, has no prior criminal history, the victim presented herself as being older and the evidence could well of been "he said, she said". An active defense could well have resulted in no sex conviction for DE (probably a plea bargain to "Corruption of a Minor" type charges- if that.)

If convicted of a lesser charge, DE's spin for future employers is: "I hosted a party for some of my new college friends. An older looking cousin of a new friend came in an drank alcohol. I was uhmm.... shocked and appalled when they told me her true age."
Great insights.

Question:
If Eisenhower had simply had sexually explicit KIK chats with her and they has never met and there wasn't any exchange of naked images; would he be in violation of the law?

I ask because I agree with your hypothesis that there must be something more than a threat to tell on him. As long as there was no transmission of illegal images, if it came down to a he said, she said thing; it would be difficult to make an arrest if she told on him.

So I agree that there must be something bigger going on because all signs point to this being premeditated and not done impulsively. What that is, I don't know...
 
Great insights.

Question:
If Eisenhower had simply had sexually explicit KIK chats with her and they has never met and there wasn't any exchange of naked images; would he be in violation of the law?

I ask because I agree with your hypothesis that there must be something more than a threat to tell on him. As long as there was no transmission of illegal images, if it came down to a he said, she said thing; it would be difficult to make an arrest if she told on him.

So I agree that there must be something bigger going on because all signs point to this being premeditated and not done impulsively. What that is, I don't know...

Why do people think they never met? She could have been sneaking out of that window before for all I know.
 
Why do people think they never met? She could have been sneaking out of that window before for all I know.
You didn't read my post correctly, it began with a hypothetical question; not a statement.
 
It's interesting that the roommate did not mention NK. Maybe the press just didn't ask him if NK was a constant presence in the dorm room??? It does not sound like she was there much. Makes me think NK was there when the roommate wasn't, or they met outside the dorm - like at the restaurant, and FB contact.

I would go for your option "B"- they met mostly outside the dorm.

Though my college dorm days were long ago, it would have been difficult to minimize the constant presence of a girl, even if DE tried to. First and foremost, there were about 50 young men with "inquiring minds that want to know" regarding girls living in close proximity to each other on every floor of every wing. Espescially early in the year, girls visiting dorm rooms were quickly noted, and then were the subject of discussion and speculation.

On more practical notes, girls had to be signed in, and logs were kept. Though it was possible to sneak them in, there were dorm monitors assigned to each floor of each wing whose jobs included noticing violations of the rules regarding the presence of girls. In short, my guess is that had NK been there constantly, or even a moderate amount of time, her continued presence would have been noted by either the monitor, the roomate, one of the many "inquiring minds", or most likely, by all three.
 
Great insights.
Question:
If Eisenhower had simply had sexually explicit KIK chats with her and they has never met and there wasn't any exchange of naked images; would he be in violation of the law?

I ask because I agree with your hypothesis that there must be something more than a threat to tell on him. As long as there was no transmission of illegal images, if it came down to a he said, she said thing; it would be difficult to make an arrest if she told on him.

So I agree that there must be something bigger going on because all signs point to this being premeditated and not done impulsively. What that is, I don't know...

My understanding of the law is that sexual assault needs true sexual contact, Different states may define it different ways, but I think just engaging in explicit talk would support a Corrupting a Minor, or a Child Endangerment type charge, but not Sexual Assault. Likewise, receiving sexually explicit photographs of a 13 year old may technically constitute Possession of Child *advertiser censored* type charges, but I think most proscecutors would handle it as Child Endangerment unless there were extenuating circumstances such as the recipient being a documented sexual predator.

As for motive, as horrible as it seems, the primary motive might well be "thrill kill", perhaps under a thin veneer of "She might turn me in". My guess, and it is only a guess is that DE and NK "fed off each other" and awakened / developed latent fantasies in each other regarding the thrill killing of another person. As individuals, they may, or may not have been capable of such a crime. But, using each other as reinforcement and encouragement, they became capable when acting together. Then factor in that two violence inclined people can function as a miniature mob where it is psychologically easier to minimize individual actions. For example, I did not loot the store, I just broke the window. In the case of this crime, the line of thought might be: I did not actually kill the victim. I just facilitated the preperations and assisted later.
 
My understanding of the law is that sexual assault needs true sexual contact, Different states may define it different ways, but I think just engaging in explicit talk would support a Corrupting a Minor, or a Child Endangerment type charge, but not Sexual Assault. Likewise, receiving sexually explicit photographs of a 13 year old may technically constitute Possession of Child *advertiser censored* type charges, but I think most proscecutors would handle it as Child Endangerment unless there were extenuating circumstances such as the recipient being a documented sexual predator.

As for motive, as horrible as it seems, the primary motive might well be "thrill kill", perhaps under a thin veneer of "She might turn me in". My guess, and it is only a guess is that DE and NK "fed off each other" and awakened / developed latent fantasies in each other regarding the thrill killing of another person. As individuals, they may, or may not have been capable of such a crime. But, using each other as reinforcement and encouragement, they became capable when acting together. Then factor in that two violence inclined people can function as a miniature mob where it is psychologically easier to minimize individual actions. For example, I did not loot the store, I just broke the window. In the case of this crime, the line of thought might be: I did not actually kill the victim. I just facilitated the preperations and assisted later.
Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

I was really hoping that you wouldn't suggest that it was a "thrill killing" because that's the answer I feared the most; I guess it's really hard for me to acknowledge/accept that such evil exists and comes in the form of seemingly normal looking people. That being said, i tend to agree with your excellent comments.
 
Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

I was really hoping that you wouldn't suggest that it was a "thrill killing" because that's the answer I feared the most; I guess it's really hard for me to acknowledge/accept that such evil exists and comes in the form of seemingly normal looking people. That being said, i tend to agree with your excellent comments.
I agree, it is unnerving. The fact that both DE and NK do not appear to have shown blatant prior warning signs of evilness makes me wonder if they needed each other to "develop" and that if they had not met each other, the crime would not have occurred.

As a side note, I would not be surprised if they both gave some subtle warning signs, though nothing to indicate the magnitude of what they were capable of. For example, DE's aquantiances might describe him as being shallow, arrogant, etc. Likewise, there is video footage of him describing his sports and academic abilities in self centered terms. Then again, as you alluded to, the vast magority of arrogant people never commit murder and never even serioulsy harm anbody physically.

Ps. Thank you for the compliments regarding my posts. I must add, however, that other members have contributed to my ideas.
 
Special Report: Smart Phones, Bad Choices

Undercover FBI agents sat down with 10 On Your Side to talk about the growing trend. Every week they are seeing more and more cases of teens who end up victims, because they could end up talking with predators.
.....
Two recent Virginia cases stand out. In January police arrested two Virginia Tech students and charged them with killing 13-year-old Nicole Lovell. Officers say the suspects met the teen through popular messaging app called Kik.

A couple weeks later, Williamsburg police say Erick Martinez raped a 12-year-old girl he met on the same app.
......
The FBI calls Kik the most dangerous app out there. We’re told most of the cases agents are seeing start on that app.
.....
“You don’t have to have a birthday, you don’t have put in your email address, phone number or not even your true name,” FBI agents added.
.....
There is also software called “Teen Safe” which records everything a teen does on a phone. Parents can see deleted text messages, photos and apps.

http://wspa.com/2016/04/14/special-report-smart-phones-bad-choices/
 
http://www.roanoke.com/news/crime/blacksburg/nicole-lovell-case-defense-lawyers-request-their-own-photo-access/article_2c95499d-50ee-5577-b956-a8dafb3bcd4f.html?TNNoMobile

Thursday, April 14, 2016 4:42 pm | Updated: 4:43 pm, Thu Apr 14, 2016

Lawyers for one of the defendants in the Nicole Lovell case asked a judge Thursday to allow their own cameras in the courtroom during an upcoming hearing.

Kris Olin, one of the lawyers for Natalie Keepers, said they want to film the May 20 preliminary hearing so they could use the "video transcript" to point out possible inconsistencies in witness testimony at a later date.

Montgomery County Juvenile and Domestic Relations Judge Robert Viar declined to rule on the matter on Thursday, saying he needed more time to review the lawyers’ arguments.
 
Sounds like Keepers attorneys may have a flare for theatrics; they want to have a gotcha moment to show the jury on video. I bet their strategy will be to allege police misconduct or witnesses who are not credible.

The Court proceedings will be well documented by the court reporters transcript. I'd suggest Keepers attorneys concentrate on getting her the best deal possible or prove her innocence rather than waste time with useless filings.
 
Doubt the request for cameras will be granted. This is still in juvenile court and the rules are pretty strict. Hoping this gets transferred to adult court at this next hearing which would be open to the public then.
Wait. What?

Why is Keepers case in juvenile court? She was 17, almost 18 when the murder was committed; right?

All signs point to the murder being premeditated; right?

There's a plausible chance that it was Keepers who killed her.

This should not be in juvenile court.

<modsnip>

Hell, now I'm shocked that they didn't release Keepers on her own recognizance pending trial...
 
Wait. What?

Why is Keepers case in juvenile court? She was 17, almost 18 when the murder was committed; right?

All signs point to the murder being premeditated; right?

There's a plausible chance that it was Keepers who killed her.

This should not be in juvenile court.

<modsnip>

Hell, now I'm shocked that they didn't release Keepers on her own recognizance pending trial...

NK is 19, DE is 18...both adults.

The reason Pettit gave for this being started in juvenile court was because the victim Nicole was 13, a minor. She said it would eventually be transferred out of juvenile court.

I have always suspected this was also done because juvenile court is closed and information cannot be released. The only reason we heard so much was because of NK's bail hearing. Yes, another move done by this same attorney now requesting cameras in the May 20th hearing.
 
Wait. What?

Why is Keepers case in juvenile court? She was 17, almost 18 when the murder was committed; right?

All signs point to the murder being premeditated; right?

There's a plausible chance that it was Keepers who killed her.

This should not be in juvenile court.

<modsnip>

Hell, now I'm shocked that they didn't release Keepers on her own recognizance pending trial...
Virginia law requires cases where the victim was a minor to start in juvenile court, regardless of the age of the accused. It will be transferred to the adult court system.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
 
NK is 19, DE is 18...both adults.

The reason Pettit gave for this being started in juvenile court was because the victim Nicole was 13, a minor. She said it would eventually be transferred out of juvenile court.

I have always suspected this was also done because juvenile court is closed and information cannot be released. The only reason we heard so much was because of NK's bail hearing. Yes, another move done by this same attorney now requesting cameras in the May 20th hearing.

What is the lawyer thinking about requesting cameras in court? I thought that bail hearing was a disaster for NK. What good would televising the proceedings do for the defendant? Someone clue me in.
 
What is the lawyer thinking about requesting cameras in court? I thought that bail hearing was a disaster for NK. What good would televising the proceedings do for the defendant? Someone clue me in.

All I can think is trickery - they're up to something, somehow. JMO
 
Virginia law requires cases where the victim was a minor to start in juvenile court, regardless of the age of the accused. It will be transferred to the adult court system.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
Thanks for the info; appreciate it!

Is the Commonwealth unique with this bizarre case flow? Is it even possible for a defendant to invoke their right to a speedy trial in Virginia given the process to get the case to criminal court?
 
What is the lawyer thinking about requesting cameras in court? I thought that bail hearing was a disaster for NK. What good would televising the proceedings do for the defendant? Someone clue me in.

I found this request incredibly strange as well. I don't think I've ever heard of any lawyer requesting that before.
 
Thanks for the info; appreciate it!

Is the Commonwealth unique with this bizarre case flow? Is it even possible for a defendant to invoke their right to a speedy trial in Virginia given the process to get the case to criminal court?
Not sure if any other states do it this way, Virginia is the only one I've heard of, though.

The speedy trial shouldn't be an issue... basically, all it means is that the first few hearings are in juvenile, and it transfers as a matter of law at a certain point. I think after the preliminary hearing, but not positive.

Ok, found it...

Adults charged with committing felonies against children or family or household
members are brought into juvenile and domestic relations district court, after arrest, for a
preliminary hearing. This hearing is held to determine if there is probable (reasonable) cause to
believe that the accused adult committed the felony. If probable cause is found, the case is
transferred to circuit court; otherwise the case is dismissed.



www.courts.state.va.us › jdr › jdrinfo

ETA. I'm sorry, the quote is from a pdf and I can't get the link to work. If you Google virginia juvenile court adult it should be the first result.


Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
 
What is the lawyer thinking about requesting cameras in court? I thought that bail hearing was a disaster for NK. What good would televising the proceedings do for the defendant? Someone clue me in.

I agree about the bail hearing.

Here's the reason he gave for his request for the cameras:

Kris Olin, one of the lawyers for Natalie Keepers, said they want to film the May 20 preliminary hearing so they could use the &#8220;video transcript&#8221; to point out possible inconsistencies in witness testimony at a later date.

http://www.roanoke.com/news/crime/b...d-50ee-5577-b956-a8dafb3bcd4f.html?TNNoMobile

I have never heard of a request like this before.
 
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