GUILTY VA - Noah Thomas, 5, Pulaski County, 22 March 2015 #6

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Can you please provide the link where it states that the lid on Noah's property was NOT bolted down? I am having trouble finding it. TIA

But isn't this all rather irrelevant in the case of little Noah, considering it was reported that the lid of the tank he was found in was actually buried beneath sod?

Unless I missed it, I don't recall their being a definitive statement one way or the other on bolts or sod.

We read Orlando Salinas's statement that he spoke with two men who ran in to the backyard shortly after the 911 call while LE were still inside interviewing the parents before a real search had begun. The two men said the lid popped off like a tupperware lid. They did not mention bolts. If I am to take the story of these two men via Orlando Salinas at face value, I interpret that to mean it was not bolted down, but that story, nor any others actually tell us definitively if it was or not.

We had, IIRC, two statements, one from a reporter and one from (???) that said they saw a square of sod next to the septic lid, or as least as much as they could see from a distance after the tent had been set up and LE and workers were in the area. But I don't recall anything either from MSM or LE confirming that the lid was, in fact, buried.

Unless I missed something, I just don't recall any definitive statements that confirm for us that the lid was bolted down or that it was buried at any time. If I missed something, I apologize, but could you please provide a link! Thanks!


Edited to add: just saw AnnaGrace's post :) I want to go back and look at the picture but I still feel like we don't have any real confirmation. Thanks for mentioning the pic - I think I had actually forgotten about that!
 
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Deleted by me....best cross post ever, Thanks AnnaGrace!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Deleting once again...it's like you are reading my mind!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)
 
Unless I missed it, I don't recall their being a definitive statement one way or the other on bolts or sod.

We read Orlando Salinas's statement that he spoke with two men who ran in to the backyard shortly after the 911 call while LE were still inside interviewing the parents before a real search had begun. The two men said the lid popped off like a tupperware lid. They did not mention bolts. If I am to take the story of these two men via Orlando Salinas at face value, I interpret that to mean it was not bolted down, but that story, nor any others actually tell us definitively if it was or not.

We had, IIRC, two statements, one from a reporter and one from (???) that said they saw a square of sod next to the septic lid, or as least as much as they could see from a distance after the tent had been set up and LE and workers were in the area. But I don't recall anything either from MSM or LE confirming that the lid was, in fact, buried.

Unless I missed something, I just don't recall any definitive statements that confirm for us that the lid was bolted down or that it was buried at any time. If I missed something, I apologize, but could you please provide a link! Thanks!


Edited to add: just saw AnnaGrace's post :) I want to go back and look at the picture but I still feel like we don't have any real confirmation. Thanks for mentioning the pic - I think I had actually forgotten about that!

I don't think there is a credible link that states the lid was NOT bolted down. I believe the only report of that was made by Orlando Salinas and only posted on his SM page. The fact that he is no longer employed by WDBJ and that LE has not confirmed the information he reported, I am taking it with a grain of salt.


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I personally couldn't tell much about her weight... The only photo I saw of her was one in which she appeared to be wearing a too big, bulky coat. She appeared thinner to me today, but I think it was likely the coat.

Honestly, the only opinion I had when I saw her on the video was that I thought she looked too well for a mother who had just lost a child.


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I agree. Honestly, to me she looked like someone who has finally detoxes off heavy drugs. She did look pale but I'm really pale and so my skin tone looks like that too if I haven't had any sun
 
Do we know of other abuse and neglect cases, leading to the death of a child, where the parents were denied bond? It seems in Noah's case that bond isn't being considered until the toxicology report comes back. Is this normal if the parents simply left the child alone and an accident occurred that caused his/her death? Simply means if that is what the charge is based on. There is no justification for leaving a five year old and a six month old at home alone. IMO

Really good question. In the Heather Elvis case, the accused murderers were let out of jail because SC law says that the only way you can hold someone in jail before trial is if there is a risk of flight or danger to the community.

I'm going to look up VA bail law, but in the meantime, does anyone know if her attorney actually addressed the law during the hearing?

ETA, here is the VA law for anyone who wants to see it--I'm reading it now:

https://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+19.2-120
 
Either he took something himself and fell in the tank and drowned.

He was given something and fell in the tank and drowned.

He was given something and was put in the tank and drowned.

He was given something and died and his body placed in the tank.

He took something himself and was put in the tank and drowned.

He took something himself, died and his body was placed in the tank

He had some other accident and his body placed in the tank.
He was killed unintentionally as the result of some type of abuse and his body placed in the tank

He was killed intentionally and placed in the tank.

If Noah’s death is accidental, then this would be the general scenario:
Noah was unsupervised, wandered outside and fell in the septic tank. COD would be drowning. In this case, the lungs would be full of water, waste, sludge from the tank. If it were obvious by the presence of septic tank water in his lungs, then the tox reports would not be so important, we wouldn’t be “waiting” on them. Also, Ashley’s denial of bond and the judge’s assertion that it was “unthinkable” that Ashley should be around ANY child at this point, tells us that there is more to this than an unsupervised child falling into a septic tank just because he was unsupervised. If that were the case, why would Ashley potentially be a danger to her Uncle’s 11 year old daughter? She is not responsible for that child, so whether or not Ashley would supervise this child is a moot point. Plus, this is an 11 year old, not a young child likely to wander off and fall into a septic tank.
This is what effectively rules out the chances of Noah falling into the tank accidentally as a result of being unsupervised:
1.COD would be drowning – lungs filled with septic tank water, not just plain water, and easily determined at initial autopsy.
2.Ashley’s denial of bond twice, with the Judge’s statement about her not being around any child. Unsupervised children have accidents all the time. They are not usually held without bond, even after appeal, pending toxicology results.
Lid ON or lid OFF, it doesn’t even matter, the septic tank water’s presence or absence in the lungs would tell if this were accidental. And, they would be able to determine, based upon the alveolar changes/damage in the lungs, whether the septic tank water was inhaled during the course of a drowning, or if it seeped in post mortem.
The only possible thing they could be waiting for on the tox report, if the autopsy showed that the act of drowning took place inside the septic tank, would be to determine if he had drugs in his system when he fell in or was placed in

If Noah’s COD was determined to be drowning, but the water in his lungs that is responsible for the drowning itself was determined to be water from another location (pond, bathtub, etc.), then it is only possible that Noah drowned/was drowned elsewhere and then his body placed in the tank.
Again, it does not matter if the lid was on or off, bolted or not, covered in sod or not. They already know most of the story. We don’t yet, but there is a lot one can surmise by what we do know.
 
Either he took something himself and fell in the tank and drowned.

He was given something and fell in the tank and drowned.

He was given something and was put in the tank and drowned.

He was given something and died and his body placed in the tank.

He took something himself and was put in the tank and drowned.

He took something himself, died and his body was placed in the tank

He had some other accident and his body placed in the tank.
He was killed unintentionally as the result of some type of abuse and his body placed in the tank

He was killed intentionally and placed in the tank.

If Noah’s death is accidental, then this would be the general scenario:
Noah was unsupervised, wandered outside and fell in the septic tank. COD would be drowning. In this case, the lungs would be full of water, waste, sludge from the tank. If it were obvious by the presence of septic tank water in his lungs, then the tox reports would not be so important, we wouldn’t be “waiting” on them. Also, Ashley’s denial of bond and the judge’s assertion that it was “unthinkable” that Ashley should be around ANY child at this point, tells us that there is more to this than an unsupervised child falling into a septic tank just because he was unsupervised. If that were the case, why would Ashley potentially be a danger to her Uncle’s 11 year old daughter? She is not responsible for that child, so whether or not Ashley would supervise this child is a moot point. Plus, this is an 11 year old, not a young child likely to wander off and fall into a septic tank.
This is what effectively rules out the chances of Noah falling into the tank accidentally as a result of being unsupervised:
1.COD would be drowning – lungs filled with septic tank water, not just plain water, and easily determined at initial autopsy.
2.Ashley’s denial of bond twice, with the Judge’s statement about her not being around any child. Unsupervised children have accidents all the time. They are not usually held without bond, even after appeal, pending toxicology results.
Lid ON or lid OFF, it doesn’t even matter, the septic tank water’s presence or absence in the lungs would tell if this were accidental. And, they would be able to determine, based upon the alveolar changes/damage in the lungs, whether the septic tank water was inhaled during the course of a drowning, or if it seeped in post mortem.
The only possible thing they could be waiting for on the tox report, if the autopsy showed that the act of drowning took place inside the septic tank, would be to determine if he had drugs in his system when he fell in.
If Noah’s COD was determined to be drowning, but the water in his lungs that is responsible for the drowning itself was determined to be water from another location (pond, bathtub, etc.), then it is only possible that Noah drowned/was drowned elsewhere and then his body placed in the tank.
Again, it does not matter if the lid was on or off, bolted or not, covered in sod or not. They already know most of the story. We don’t yet, but there is a lot one can surmise by what we do know.

This.


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Great synopsis Courtney. You've covered everything I've been thinking about so eloquently. Thank you.
 
Really good question. In the Heather Elvis case, the accused murderers were let out of jail because SC law says that the only way you can hold someone in jail before trial is if there is a risk of flight or danger to the community.

I'm going to look up VA bail law, but in the meantime, does anyone know if her attorney actually addressed the law during the hearing?

ETA, here is the VA law for anyone who wants to see it--I'm reading it now:

https://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+19.2-120

WDBJ7

On Tuesday, White's court-appointed attorney tried to reassure a different judge that White would never be left alone in the home with the granddaughter, the she isn't a flight risk and isn't be a danger to herself or others. That's the only reference I've seen of that being addressed.

Thank you for the link on VA bail law. It would be very helpful if I really knew what I'm looking for.:thinking:
 
WDBJ7

On Tuesday, White's court-appointed attorney tried to reassure a different judge that White would never be left alone in the home with the granddaughter, the she isn't a flight risk and isn't be a danger to herself or others. That's the only reference I've seen of that being addressed.

Thank you for the link on VA bail law. It would be very helpful if I really knew what I'm looking for.:thinking:

I looked through it and it looks like the father can be held because he has had a past DUI. I've not read all of the posts, but I'm pretty sure that the mother did not have a past record, so she should be able to be released. Grain of salt, because IANAL.

Maybe gitana could weigh in when she gets free.

Maybe judge is thinking that the angry townspeople might harm her if she is set free? IIRC, that was some of the reasoning of why the Moorers were kept in for so long.
 
If the sod had not been removed from covering the lid recently for some sort of septic tank maintenance, then the absence of the sod covering the lid can only mean that it was recently removed in order to access the tank to place the body there. Noah would not have been able to remove the sod with a shovel before removing the lid and falling in.



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If the sod had not been removed from covering the lid recently for some sort of septic tank maintenance, then the absence of the sod covering the lid can only mean that it was recently removed in order to access the tank to place the body there. Noah would not have been able to remove the sod with a shovel before removing the lid and falling in.



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And I hate to keep going back to that picture from two days after Noah was found, but clearly the ground was uncovered in that small area near the white vent pipe. I assume that would be the a septic tank.
 
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The more time that passes without any official word about the lid/tank...the more I think LE was told there was something down there and either disregarded it or took a cursory look, until days later. Jmo
 
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