VA VA - The Colonial Parkway Murders, 1986-89

[Murder Inc]

Youd be hard pressed in a large metropolitan area then , Philadelphia for ex had over 600 homicides something like 300 in 2 neighborhoods alone

Yes but it's analogical fallacy to compare the densely populated city of Philadelphia to Colonial Parkway.

 

[Joe Snuffy]

Youd be hard pressed in a large metropolitan area then , Philadelphia for ex had over 600 homicides something like 300 in 2 neighborhoods alone

I need to locate a reputable site that has data the numbers in metro areas compared to cities or counties.

 

[Joe Snuffy]

Youd be hard pressed in a large metropolitan area then , Philadelphia for ex had over 600 homicides something like 300 in 2 neighborhoods alone

I need to locate a reputable site that has data the numbers in metro areas compared to cities or counties.

 

[Kell1]

What do you mean by exceedingly rare? I had to look it up during 1987 there were 138 SK’s given the population size, I'm certain that’s a small percentage. However, 2019 there were 2 which, I find odd. My question came from the Richard Evonitz out of Spotsylvania County, VA and at the same time you had the Route 29 And Shenandoah And investigators Mentioned not Having simultaneously Multiple killers.

I am on the Jim Clemente bandwagon; I find it problematic that it wasn't an SK. I going down the rabbit hole but is it possible for a person to use Interstate 64 as a hunting ground?

I came across Kimberly Jane Britts case on the Charley Project. What stuck out was her car “abandoned at on Interstate 64 east, at the Route 616 exit ramp”. It’s similar to the car found on 64 at the Rest stop exit ramp. Kimberly’s murder is one year before.

Also, there's the Julianne “Julie” Williams, and Lollie Winans case in the Shenandoah. It's circumstantial but nonetheless interesting.

In any given year Serial murder represents less than 1% of the total murders each year, its a very rare phenomenon, (and thankfully on the decline) and in many cases, crimes that look like the work of a serial killer , are not.

Its a very popular topic, and makes good stories and certainly makes headlines, but its not as prevalent as some would make it

That doesnt mean this case is NOT a serial killing, it certainly could be , but theres just too much that needs be answered before a linkage analysis could be done .

It has some interesting factors, some go nowhere

 

[Joe Snuffy]

Yes but it's analogical fallacy to compare the densely populated city of Philadelphia to Colonial Parkway.

Although surrounding the CP is Hampton Roads. Geographical it is very large and has significant crimes rates.

 

[Kell1]

Yes but it's analogical fallacy to compare the densely populated city of Philadelphia to Colonial Parkway.

Not the point, your point was that location trumps crime scene evidence , i've seen murders occur on the same block only feet from each other that weren't related at all .

Profiling has its place whether or not you personally buy into it , its still used.

 

[Murder Inc]

Not the point, your point was that location trumps crime scene evidence , i've seen murders occur on the same block only feet from each other that weren't related at all .

Profiling has its place whether or not you personally buy into it , its still used.

I did not say location trumps crime scene evidence. I said location trumps your presumptive psychological interpretations of an offenders actions. Population density is obviously a crucial factor in considering the location of a murder. I'm not sure how the fact that the pseudoscience of profiling is used frequently by law enforcement officers gives the theories it employs much credence. Hypnosis was also widely used by law enforcement.

 

[Kell1]

I did not say location trumps crime scene evidence. I said location trumps your presumptive psychological interpretations of an offenders actions. Population density is obviously a crucial factor in considering the location of a murder. I'm not sure how the fact that the pseudoscience of profiling is used frequently by law enforcement officers gives the theories it employs much credence. Hypnosis was also widely used by law enforcement.

Was

profiling still is, whether or not you agree with it , behavior is crime scene evidence

behavioral analyses are still used not only in LE but in other fields as well

because you dont beleive in it doesn't detract from its credibility, it doesn't require your belief for it to useful

 

[Murder Inc]

Was

profiling still is, whether or not you agree with it , behavior is crime scene evidence

behavioral analyses are still used not only in LE but in other fields as well

because you dont beleive in it doesn't detract from its credibility, it doesn't require your belief for it to useful

What I believe is irrelevant, however criminal profiling requires evidence of it's usefulness to be credible. https://eprints.lancs.ac.uk/id/eprint/49930/1/Snook_et_al._CJB.pdf
The Criminal Profiling Illusion
There is a belief that criminal profilers can predict a criminal’s characteristics from crime scene evidence. In this article, we argue that this belief may be an illusion and explain how people may have been misled into believing that criminal profiling (CP) works despite no sound theoretical grounding and no strong empirical support for this possibility. Potentially responsible for this illusory belief is the information that people acquire about CP, which is heavily influenced by anecdotes, repetition of the message that profiling works, the “expert profiler” label, and a disproportionate emphasis on correct predictions. Also potentially responsible are aspects of information processing such as reasoning errors, creating meaning out of ambiguous information, imitating “good” ideas, and inferring fact from fiction. We conclude that CP should not be used as an investigative tool because it lacks scientific support.

 

[Marshall Plan]

In any given year Serial murder represents less than 1% of the total murders each year, its a very rare phenomenon, (and thankfully on the decline) and in many cases, crimes that look like the work of a serial killer , are not.

Its a very popular topic, and makes good stories and certainly makes headlines, but its not as prevalent as some would make it

That doesnt mean this case is NOT a serial killing, it certainly could be , but theres just too much that needs be answered before a linkage analysis could be done .

It has some interesting factors, some go nowhere

Combined homicides in Hampton and Newport News 1970-2017:

http://www.trbas.com/media/media/acrobat/2018-03/96070531-02170907.pdf

Ok, there were roughly 20-30 murders a year in Hampton and Newport News for the years in question. If you count the surrounding communities of Poquoson, Williamsburg, James City County, and York County, then you are talking roughly another 5-15 murders. These years were a bit of an anomaly as 1990 and 1992 had over 50 just in the two major cities on the VA Peninsula. According to your mathematical formulation, how were the Texarkana Moonlight Murders even possible when the annual murders in the 1940s in that area ran from 1-5?

Texarkana Moonlight Murders - Wikipedia

Another issue is that I am convinced there were many more actual murders on the VA Peninsula at the time especially 1970-1990, but they were hidden by being classified as “suicides,” “drownings,” “boating accidents,” and “missing persons.” People showed up on the shores absolutely filleted, and they were written off as “swept out by the tide” or motorboat accident, when the last time they were seen was in their apartment or in a motel room late at night alone.

I hate to say it, but the 4 part series had some real problems with the presentation. There are at least 6 other murders that could be part of the pattern. The Williams and Winans murders in the Shenandoah NP in 1996.

The unsolved Williams and Winans camping murders in Shenandoah National Park — StrangeOutdoors.com

Brian Craig Pettinger disappeared in 1987.

“″We’re hoping maybe somebody else out there won’t end up like our family members,″ said Robert E. Fanton, father-in-law of Brian C. Pettinger, whose bound body was found in the James River in February 1988.”

Families Seek Solutions to Murders

This specific case was where the series really fell down on laying out the possibility of a serial killer. He was last seen roughly a few blocks where the 2nd couple Edwards and Knobling were last seen in public. In the series, the brother states that they were going to see a movie Dragnet (I think), but they didn’t go, since it was sold out. They then went to the arcade for awhile before going home. There were three major arcades on the southern Peninsula back then. Putt-Putt in central NN, Time-Out at the Coliseum Mall in central Hampton, and the Nautilus at Newmarket North which is in Newport News right on the Hampton border. The dance studio that Pettinger was last seen is on the Hampton side of that border. All three bodies were found in or on the water’s edge of the James River. The couple were found on the south side of the James River Bridge which is also route 17. The next time that road goes over water, it goes over the Chuckatuck River, and Brian’s body was found on the South side of it in the water.

Brian missing - Newspapers.com

The other three possibly linked murders are the Hall and Margaret murders in 1984 in the Richmond area that were very similar to the 4th couple in the series, and the Laurie Ann Powell murder in 1988 the month before the 3rd couple in the series.


Colonial Parkway Murders Remain Unsolved | Historic Mysteries


I don’t know if the show is scripted or the investigators had much input in what they could express, but the questions that were asked were not of much probative value. My wife’s commented the same thing. They never laid down a timeline of any of the murders for the viewer. The may have had a dateline, but not a timeline of what were the victims doing the last 24 hours or days before their death. When the blonde investigator asked Knobling’s brother about the last night, they wasted precious time on her comforting him and talking about the last moments, but not about what was the name of the arcade, time you got there and time left, was Robin or the cousin dropped off first before you went back home, etc. They did a good job in showing how out of the way the third couple car was from Cassandra’s house, but gave no indication how far off the Isle of Wight discovery was from the 2nd couples respective homes.

Then when she interviewed Knobling’s “fiancée” or pregnant girlfriend she stated that they did go to that Ragged Island area, but the investigator didn’t nail down if they went to the area where David’s truck was staged or where the body was found. It was about the emotional exploitation and not really trying to figure out pertinent facts. That is one, because the theory of the murders being linked is the cars and bodies being staged. Where they were found was not the kill site. I assume that was so that male investigator, who was an executive producer could dazzle us with his knowledge. They also wanted to play up the lover’s lane aspect, but part of the serial killer angle is that the killer made the death’s look like a lover’s lane scenerios in at least some of the stagings.

They could have spent less time with crane or drone shots of the “HQ” in Richmond and the Boxwood Inn in NN where most of the interviews were done and done a much better job in describing facts about the van that was seen or mentioned in 3 of the 4 double homicides. The letter in the 4th case that specified a rendezvous with a blue van that mysteriously disappeared for 2 decades. There were multiple eyewitness accounts of a white van in the first case. As well, there were multiple witnesses accounts of the first couple originally being spotted at the College Creek side of the CP a day or two before it was spotted in York County. The brother mentioned a white van in the 3rd case. None of that was mentioned.

The original investigations were really botched. My theory is that they could be unrelated, or they could all be related. I am bit torn between those two extremes.

However, if I had to choose the most likely scenario I think it is highly likely that the 1984 Hall-Margaret murders and 1989 Lauer-Phelps murders are connected. I am moderately confident that the 1986 Dowski-Thomas murder is connected to those two. I would put the odds a bit under 50%. The Williams-Winans, I am less confident they are connected to this cluster of one serial killer, but I think there is 20-25% chance.

Then I think there might have been another killer that targeted Edwards-Knobling, Pettinger, and Powell. He might have targeted Call and Hailey as well, but I am less sure about that one. That one seems like a copycat killing. In addition, you have the brother and father claiming to see the car. There are too many red flags with that one either through family involvement contamination or LE contamination and misconduct.

I watched the series last weekend and I apologize if I got any of the names wrong or mixed up information from this program with the ones I binge watched on YouTube the past few days.

I don’t mean for this to sound too critical to the families involved with this series, especially Bill Thomas that posts here. I am sure they had to weigh a myriad of variables and compromises with the cooperation of family members and witnesses willing to talk; then balancing that with what the Oxygen network wanted out of the series and what was best for helping solve the cases. I just wish the program and had been more serious in trying to find clues and solutions. The families have been constantly failed by the local LE and media for almost 3 and a 1/2 decades.

 

[Richard]

Many different factors are considered when investigators link or attempt to link separate incidents. Victim descriptions, methods of attack, time of day or season of the year, etc. all enter into the mix.

Perhaps the biggest mistake made is NOT connecting cases, but rather ELIMINATING a case because it does not exactly fit the pattern of others.

Serial Killers are by definition repeat offenders who often have identifiable patterns or preferences. But their over all characteristic is that they feel the over riding need to KILL.

For some, it may be a process that takes careful planning, specific dates, specifically targeted victims or circumstances. How they do what they do, when they do it, and what they do, how they dispose of their victims' bodies afterward - could all enter into their crazed imagination of what is necessary - a sort of ritual.

For others, it might be more of an uncontrolled/unplanned event, triggered by something of an immediate nature. Others might like to experiment and use a different "MO" under different circumstances or at different times.

Some could be constantly searching for potential victims, while others could be trying hard to return to "normal" after each attack.

While the four or five separate attacks identified or suspected to be the work of the "Colonial Parkway Killer", all have a large number of similarities, it is also entirely possible that the killer had other locations (cities or states) where he killed at other times. It is also possible that he had other methods, such as home invasion, picking up hitch hikers, abduction, and various other ways of seeking victims.

 

[Kell1]

Combined homicides in Hampton and Newport News 1970-2017:

http://www.trbas.com/media/media/acrobat/2018-03/96070531-02170907.pdf

Ok, there were roughly 20-30 murders a year in Hampton and Newport News for the years in question. If you count the surrounding communities of Poquoson, Williamsburg, James City County, and York County, then you are talking roughly another 5-15 murders. These years were a bit of an anomaly as 1990 and 1992 had over 50 just in the two major cities on the VA Peninsula. According to your mathematical formulation, how were the Texarkana Moonlight Murders even possible when the annual murders in the 1940s in that area ran from 1-5?

Texarkana Moonlight Murders - Wikipedia

Another issue is that I am convinced there were many more actual murders on the VA Peninsula at the time especially 1970-1990, but they were hidden by being classified as “suicides,” “drownings,” “boating accidents,” and “missing persons.” People showed up on the shores absolutely filleted, and they were written off as “swept out by the tide” or motorboat accident, when the last time they were seen was in their apartment or in a motel room late at night alone.

I hate to say it, but the 4 part series had some real problems with the presentation. There are at least 6 other murders that could be part of the pattern. The Williams and Winans murders in the Shenandoah NP in 1996.

The unsolved Williams and Winans camping murders in Shenandoah National Park — StrangeOutdoors.com

Brian Craig Pettinger disappeared in 1987.

“″We’re hoping maybe somebody else out there won’t end up like our family members,″ said Robert E. Fanton, father-in-law of Brian C. Pettinger, whose bound body was found in the James River in February 1988.”

Families Seek Solutions to Murders

This specific case was where the series really fell down on laying out the possibility of a serial killer. He was last seen roughly a few blocks where the 2nd couple Edwards and Knobling were last seen in public. In the series, the brother states that they were going to see a movie Dragnet (I think), but they didn’t go, since it was sold out. They then went to the arcade for awhile before going home. There were three major arcades on the southern Peninsula back then. Putt-Putt in central NN, Time-Out at the Coliseum Mall in central Hampton, and the Nautilus at Newmarket North which is in Newport News right on the Hampton border. The dance studio that Pettinger was last seen is on the Hampton side of that border. All three bodies were found in or on the water’s edge of the James River. The couple were found on the south side of the James River Bridge which is also route 17. The next time that road goes over water, it goes over the Chuckatuck River, and Brian’s body was found on the South side of it in the water.

Brian missing - Newspapers.com

The other three possibly linked murders are the Hall and Margaret murders in 1984 in the Richmond area that were very similar to the 4th couple in the series, and the Laurie Ann Powell murder in 1988 the month before the 3rd couple in the series.


Colonial Parkway Murders Remain Unsolved | Historic Mysteries


I don’t know if the show is scripted or the investigators had much input in what they could express, but the questions that were asked were not of much probative value. My wife’s commented the same thing. They never laid down a timeline of any of the murders for the viewer. The may have had a dateline, but not a timeline of what were the victims doing the last 24 hours or days before their death. When the blonde investigator asked Knobling’s brother about the last night, they wasted precious time on her comforting him and talking about the last moments, but not about what was the name of the arcade, time you got there and time left, was Robin or the cousin dropped off first before you went back home, etc. They did a good job in showing how out of the way the third couple car was from Cassandra’s house, but gave no indication how far off the Isle of Wight discovery was from the 2nd couples respective homes.

Then when she interviewed Knobling’s “fiancée” or pregnant girlfriend she stated that they did go to that Ragged Island area, but the investigator didn’t nail down if they went to the area where David’s truck was staged or where the body was found. It was about the emotional exploitation and not really trying to figure out pertinent facts. That is one, because the theory of the murders being linked is the cars and bodies being staged. Where they were found was not the kill site. I assume that was so that male investigator, who was an executive producer could dazzle us with his knowledge. They also wanted to play up the lover’s lane aspect, but part of the serial killer angle is that the killer made the death’s look like a lover’s lane scenerios in at least some of the stagings.

They could have spent less time with crane or drone shots of the “HQ” in Richmond and the Boxwood Inn in NN where most of the interviews were done and done a much better job in describing facts about the van that was seen or mentioned in 3 of the 4 double homicides. The letter in the 4th case that specified a rendezvous with a blue van that mysteriously disappeared for 2 decades. There were multiple eyewitness accounts of a white van in the first case. As well, there were multiple witnesses accounts of the first couple originally being spotted at the College Creek side of the CP a day or two before it was spotted in York County. The brother mentioned a white van in the 3rd case. None of that was mentioned.

The original investigations were really botched. My theory is that they could be unrelated, or they could all be related. I am bit torn between those two extremes.

However, if I had to choose the most likely scenario I think it is highly likely that the 1984 Hall-Margaret murders and 1989 Lauer-Phelps murders are connected. I am moderately confident that the 1986 Dowski-Thomas murder is connected to those two. I would put the odds a bit under 50%. The Williams-Winans, I am less confident they are connected to this cluster of one serial killer, but I think there is 20-25% chance.

Then I think there might have been another killer that targeted Edwards-Knobling, Pettinger, and Powell. He might have targeted Call and Hailey as well, but I am less sure about that one. That one seems like a copycat killing. In addition, you have the brother and father claiming to see the car. There are too many red flags with that one either through family involvement contamination or LE contamination and misconduct.

I watched the series last weekend and I apologize if I got any of the names wrong or mixed up information from this program with the ones I binge watched on YouTube the past few days.

I don’t mean for this to sound too critical to the families involved with this series, especially Bill Thomas that posts here. I am sure they had to weigh a myriad of variables and compromises with the cooperation of family members and witnesses willing to talk; then balancing that with what the Oxygen network wanted out of the series and what was best for helping solve the cases. I just wish the program and had been more serious in trying to find clues and solutions. The families have been constantly failed by the local LE and media for almost 3 and a 1/2 decades.

Ill try to answer each without quoting it etc..

First off its not "My " mathematical equation go look up Bureau of Justice statistics from each year , you'll get the overall picture of how little serial murder factors into the totals in any given year, Murder is separate from homicide Homicide is a manner of death, murder is a legal term .

Remember now were talking about murders across the country, not just in small areas like Texarkana, (well speak more on that shortly)

Even in its heyday its still accounted for less than 1% of the total murders across the country , so in context it is still an exceedingly rare phenomenon, still terrible nonetheless.

Math doesnt account for anomalies, the Texarkana murders were indeed odd for that area that didint see many murders, however again, its possible (as you alluded) things may have been misreported we dont know but even then it still didnt jack up the numbers across the country.

AS for more murders in the area and your assertion they were "hidden" id ask you why ?, why were they hidden? what would be the reason for LE to mislabel these cases? the public already knows there were unsolved murders in that area , so why not group them in with the existing unsolved cases?, my feeling is because most likely the findings exhibited differently.

Now the murders in the Shenandoah valley are very interesting, you have another same sex couple killed in a similar fashion to the first couple attributed to the Colonial parkway suspect(s) , that should draw a closer look , i agree, Im not sure why it doesn't , especially in the colonial parkway case, which already encompasses what ?60 square miles as it is ? but Im not on the investigative teams involved in those cases .

What you need to understand is though there may be a single offender responsible for murders in the area, they may not be responsible for THESE particular cases, and it sounds like many feel there wasn't.

Now again I dont have case, files in front of me to say whether or not there is , so like you I can only comment on what ive seen in the media .

Heres where it gets strange , I beleie there were other later cases, where victims vehicles had been discovered with the window rolled down door ajar etc.. that werent considered related to an of the CP murders, I dont understand why they wouldnt given the similarities, but that would require access to the actual case, files etc..

So again in your (very well researched btw) claim above, you may be right about certain aspects, of the case , but i feel that in the cases, proposed as the "Colonial Parkway killings" as the work of a serial offender(s) with just these 4 cases, mainly attributed to such doesnt really hold up given the information that the media has given the public

Now this is important , That doesnt mean it isnt, this very well could all be the work of one offender who adapted over a period of time, if more information were released to be able to give a linkage analysis it could do a 180 , but what it appears as it stands in these 4 cases, with the information known to the public , you are dealing with multiple offender incidents.

Id be extremely interested in these later unattributed cases, as you mentioned. Id actually like to hear of these other murders if you have information.

Whats even worse is if it NOT the work of a single offender than you are looking at multiple killers in the area !

One thing to remember in ANY case is to remain neutral, listen to everyone, dont blow off what you dont agree with. Until a case, is solved every avenue (barring the ridiculous) has merit

Sometimes people will differ, doesnt mean we all dont want to see cases solved.

I respect Jim Clemente as much as ANYONE, he seems to feel this "could" be the work of a single offender, Jim is former FBI (NCAVC) so he most likely has inside information, but he was also the producer of the series, so which is it ?

So if theres more info out there Id be more than interested in looking at it

 

[Murder Inc]

Perhaps the biggest mistake made is NOT connecting cases, but rather ELIMINATING a case because it does not exactly fit the pattern of others.

Exactly. When you rule out a connection between murders you miss out on potential opportunities to identify the killer.

 

[Kell1]

And one more thing , until a case is solved nothing is "Ruled out" you still have cases, to solve, you simply put them aside for the time being .

Each case has to be investigate independently from the others before you can simply say its part of a series

Nothing in this case, as far as im aware of is "ruled out"

 

[Marshall Plan]

AS for more murders in the area and your assertion they were "hidden" id ask you why ?, why were they hidden? what would be the reason for LE to mislabel these cases? the public already knows there were unsolved murders in that area , so why not group them in with the existing unsolved cases?, my feeling is because most likely the findings exhibited differently.

“"They found two bodies floating ashore in Virginia Beach and they think it's Joanne and Christine. They want me to go down and identify the body."

...

Starting in the mid 1970s, at least 11 young women were taken from the Oceanfront and murdered. Others vanished. Many, like Joanne and Christine, were visitors.

But here is what makes this mystery even more strange. For reasons no one can recall, police and prosecutors in 1983 dismissed the double death as an accident. That's right, an accident.”

https://www.wtkr.com/2011/04/28/searching-for-a-serial-killer-in-virginia-beach-part-3/

This is the Southside of the Hampton Roads area, but it was similar on the Peninsula. There were a few female murder victims that fit this haphazard classification for their cause of death. There were numerous bodies discovered in the water where the last time they were seen was on a fishing boat going out to commercially fish or pleasure boating. The bodies would end up in the water days, weeks, or months later. However, they were typically not reported missing at the time of their disappearance. Most of these victims were poor white and black men that didn’t have enough social standing or concerned family to fight for them in their death. Some had clear signs that they had injuries more consistent with knife lacerations than blunt trauma of being pounded on rocks, etc. Other times there were reports of them being in fights or altercations, and the reports were just dismissed as a “misunderstanding.”

Like the death threats that David Knobling’s family reported he had received in the weeks before his death, that the investigation just waived away.

“Newport News Sheriff B.F. Dixon would tell reporters with the Daily Press:

"There's not a whole lot to it. We talked to a lady and her sons about it. She didn't hate him, she said, but it wasn't any love affair either... It doesn't appear to us the family was involved." ”

The Colonial Parkway Murders — Unresolved

Now this assessment by Sheriff Dixon could have been absolutely accurate. However, too many times when one knew how connected the party that made the threats, one could guess how credible they would be treated. The same too often went went for how the victim was to treated as well.

It seemed that constantly a corrupt judge was stripped of his duties and sometimes went to jail. It happened on an almost biennial regularity, and those were just the ones I noticed in the paper. It was an old boy network throughout the region with too many corrupt law enforcement officers, lawyers, and judges. Sometimes the corruption or malfeasance was to shield or cover-up a protected person such as an important citizen (police, politician, rich donor) or child of the VIP. Other times it was to keep the crime numbers artificially low for the tourist trade. I think there were times it was just gross incompetence or laziness.

I worked at a couple of the regional hospitals at the end of the period into the early to mid 1990s. I knew LE (as casual acquaintances, only one I would classify as anything close to a friend) that worked in all the jurisdictions I posted in my previous post except for Poquoson. There were medical examiners who were alleged to write down anything the police chief or department wanted stated as the cause of death. I heard this from police officers and medical professionals. I base all this on what I heard from them, as I have no expertise in this field.

This case is later than the late 1980s time period, but it is representative of many of the cases in that period. A prosecutor taking advantage of a disadvantaged kid, a defense attorney from a monied and connected background providing ineffective counsel, the police bending the story to fit what a favored person or family wants the narrative to be.

Ricky Cullipher - National Registry of Exonerations

HISTORY OF THE DANNY CALDWELL-RICKY CULLIPHER CASE

These types of stories were becoming less and less commonplace by the mid to late 1990s, than they had been a decade or two previously.

What exact percentage was the shortfall between LE recorded number of homicides and the real or actual numbers of homicides ? I can’t ascertain a precise measurement, but there was some sort of impetus to not look too closely into too many murders and crimes.

I didn’t mean to sidetrack this discussion with my numbers about the amount of murders on the Peninsula during the period. It’s fine if you think I am exaggerating the level of corruption, but I think it is important to understand the case from a holistic perspective. That if there is a national level of an acceptable or understandable level of corruption and police competence for that time period or now, that the region was most likely not meeting that standard.

 

[Kell1]

“"They found two bodies floating ashore in Virginia Beach and they think it's Joanne and Christine. They want me to go down and identify the body."

...

Starting in the mid 1970s, at least 11 young women were taken from the Oceanfront and murdered. Others vanished. Many, like Joanne and Christine, were visitors.

But here is what makes this mystery even more strange. For reasons no one can recall, police and prosecutors in 1983 dismissed the double death as an accident. That's right, an accident.”

https://www.wtkr.com/2011/04/28/searching-for-a-serial-killer-in-virginia-beach-part-3/

This is the Southside of the Hampton Roads area, but it was similar on the Peninsula. There were a few female murder victims that fit this haphazard classification for their cause of death. There were numerous bodies discovered in the water where the last time they were seen was on a fishing boat going out to commercially fish or pleasure boating. The bodies would end up in the water days, weeks, or months later. However, they were typically not reported missing at the time of their disappearance. Most of these victims were poor white and black men that didn’t have enough social standing or concerned family to fight for them in their death. Some had clear signs that they had injuries more consistent with knife lacerations than blunt trauma of being pounded on rocks, etc. Other times there were reports of them being in fights or altercations, and the reports were just dismissed as a “misunderstanding.”

Like the death threats that David Knobling’s family reported he had received in the weeks before his death, that the investigation just waived away.

“Newport News Sheriff B.F. Dixon would tell reporters with the Daily Press:

"There's not a whole lot to it. We talked to a lady and her sons about it. She didn't hate him, she said, but it wasn't any love affair either... It doesn't appear to us the family was involved." ”

The Colonial Parkway Murders — Unresolved

Now this assessment by Sheriff Dixon could have been absolutely accurate. However, too many times when one knew how connected the party that made the threats, one could guess how credible they would be treated. The same too often went went for how the victim was to treated as well.

It seemed that constantly a corrupt judge was stripped of his duties and sometimes went to jail. It happened on an almost biennial regularity, and those were just the ones I noticed in the paper. It was an old boy network throughout the region with too many corrupt law enforcement officers, lawyers, and judges. Sometimes the corruption or malfeasance was to shield or cover-up a protected person such as an important citizen (police, politician, rich donor) or child of the VIP. Other times it was to keep the crime numbers artificially low for the tourist trade. I think there were times it was just gross incompetence or laziness.

I worked at a couple of the regional hospitals at the end of the period into the early to mid 1990s. I knew LE (as casual acquaintances, only one I would classify as anything close to a friend) that worked in all the jurisdictions I posted in my previous post except for Poquoson. There were medical examiners who were alleged to write down anything the police chief or department wanted stated as the cause of death. I heard this from police officers and medical professionals. I base all this on what I heard from them, as I have no expertise in this field.

This case is later than the late 1980s time period, but it is representative of many of the cases in that period. A prosecutor taking advantage of a disadvantaged kid, a defense attorney from a monied and connected background providing ineffective counsel, the police bending the story to fit what a favored person or family wants the narrative to be.

Ricky Cullipher - National Registry of Exonerations

HISTORY OF THE DANNY CALDWELL-RICKY CULLIPHER CASE

These types of stories were becoming less and less commonplace by the mid to late 1990s, than they had been a decade or two previously.

What exact percentage was the shortfall between LE recorded number of homicides and the real or actual numbers of homicides ? I can’t ascertain a precise measurement, but there was some sort of impetus to not look too closely into too many murders and crimes.

I didn’t mean to sidetrack this discussion with my numbers about the amount of murders on the Peninsula during the period. It’s fine if you think I am exaggerating the level of corruption, but I think it is important to understand the case from a holistic perspective. That if you have a national level of acceptable level corruption and police competence for that time period or now, that the region was most likely not meeting that standard.

So you feel that many of these cases, werent linked because of police corruption?

 

[Marshall Plan]

Sometimes people will differ, doesnt mean we all dont want to see cases solved.

I respect Jim Clemente as much as ANYONE, he seems to feel this "could" be the work of a single offender, Jim is former FBI (NCAVC) so he most likely has inside information, but he was also the producer of the series, so which is it ?

Lovers' Lane Murders (TV Series) (executive producer - 3 episodes)
- A Portrait of Evil (2021) ... (executive producer)
- No Bodies, No Answers (2021) ... (executive producer)
- Evil Strikes Again (2021) ... (executive producer)

Jim Clemente - IMDb

Not exactly sure what you were trying to state. He is an ep for the series.

I am sure he is a fine profiler and investigator. I was only pointing out that as an ep, he might have a bit of conflict of interest in not presenting a more overall balanced assessment of the individual cases. I don’t know all the constraints in terms of entertainment value Oxygen wants and budgetary restrictions in exploring alternative scenarios. However in the first case Dowski-Thomas and the third case Call-Hailey, there is evidence that they were abducted closer to where they were last seen or en route to where the cars were finally discovered. Clemente may support that theory or not, but is not even presented when it is a theory endorsed by other outside LE that have commented on the case.

 

[Marshall Plan]

So you feel that many of these cases, werent linked because of police corruption?

Many I don’t know, but I think it might be part of the problem in solving any specific one of them, especially all these years later. I am under the impression that DUI stops and arrests were destroyed back in this time frame for lucky citizens, because I was hit by a hit and run DUI driver a year after one of the murders. He had been a stopped for a DUI when he blew 0.12 BAC (if I remember correctly) in the evening about 90-120 minutes prior to hitting me in an intersection while running a red light going 65mph in a 45 mph zone. I was lucky, because I was wearing my seat belt. However, my car’s passenger side was practically flattened. His passenger was seriously injured and slammed into the windshield. He ran off and hid under a bridge, then called 911 and claimed he had been shot.

Anyways, the officers that had assisted me and his female passenger, were the same officers that had stopped him earlier in the evening. My insurance’s lawyer contacted me about 4-6 weeks later (there was a question if I would need to testify in a civil suit against the driver) and explained that the officer’s were told to let the driver go by a police supervisor during the original stop, because he was the son of city councilman. The impression I got from the lawyer was that if I had not been hit and due to the serious injuries to the female, the officers were expected to destroy the record of the stop. He implied that they were so upset that they kept the stop record. He also gave the impression that this was a common occurrence, and that the insurance company was lucky the officers were so diligent and honorable. I am sure this happened across the country back then and still does from time to time, but I think it was more prevalent in this area. So, in another case a dui or speeding ticket might be that one needed clue that a suspect was out and near when one of these crimes took place.

 

[Kell1]

Jim Clemente - IMDb

Not exactly sure what you were trying to state. He is an ep for the series.

I am sure he is a fine profiler and investigator. I was only pointing out that as an ep, he might have a bit of conflict of interest in not presenting a more overall balanced assessment of the individual cases. I don’t know all the constraints in terms of entertainment value Oxygen wants and budgetary restrictions in exploring alternative scenarios. However in the first case Dowski-Thomas and the third case Call-Hailey, there is evidence that they were abducted closer to where they were last seen or en route to where the cars were finally discovered. Clemente may support that theory or not, but is not even presented when it is a theory endorsed by other outside LE that have commented on the case.

Theres a lot of assumption there, in the Call/Hailey case, we dont know what happened to them that needs to be investigated first and foremost as a missing persons case, Id be stunned if it werent already.

No matter what in that case, the park service police tainted that crime scene by moving things, so that will almost instantly hinder any case. But as it stands they are still missing, they way you begin missing persons case, is to do a victimology assessment to look into their backgrounds to see if theres anything that could've lead them to go missing . This holds true for murder cases as well .

In the Thomas/Dowski case I saw nowhere where they were abducted, accosted yes, but they nowhere was it indicated they were taken from where they were by force or con to a separate location

There are quite a lot of similarities however between the first case and the possible 5th case in the Shenandoah valley case.

My point about Clemente was exactly the same as you are saying Im not sure some of what was presented in this was to make more of the story, but again, Jim is a stand up guy so who knows .

 

[Kell1]

Many I don’t know, but I think it might be part of the problem in solving any specific one of them, especially all these years later. I am under the impression that DUI stops and arrests were destroyed back in this time frame for lucky citizens, because I was hit by a hit and run DUI driver a year after one of the murders. He had been a stopped for a DUI when he blew 0.12 BAC (if I remember correctly) in the evening about 90-120 minutes prior to hitting me in an intersection while running a red light going 65mph in a 45 mph zone. I was lucky, because I was wearing my seat belt. However, my car’s passenger side was practically flattened. His passenger was seriously injured and slammed into the windshield. He ran off and hid under a bridge, then called 911 and claimed he had been shot.

Anyways, the officers that had assisted me and his female passenger, were the same officers that had stopped him earlier in the evening. My insurance’s lawyer contacted me about 4-6 weeks later (there was a question if I would need to testify in a civil suit against the driver) and explained that the officer’s were told to let the driver go by a police supervisor during the original stop, because he was the son of city councilman. The impression I got from the lawyer was that if I had not been hit and due to the serious injuries to the female, the officers were expected to destroy the record of the stop. He implied that they were so upset that they kept the stop record. He also gave the impression that this was a common occurrence, and that the insurance company was lucky the officers were so diligent and honorable. I am sure this happened across the country back then and still does from time to time, but I think it was more prevalent in this area. So, in another case a dui or speeding ticket might be that one needed clue that a suspect was out and near when one of these crimes took place.

This is by no means a jab, but so often we see conspiracy theories surrounding unsolved cases, and many of them prove to be nothing but that .

And theres always a personal experience tie in that lends to it

In this case, youre dealing with murders on Federal land under the jurisdiction of the FBI

Now NO department is perfect, even the FBI (some may say particularly the FBI) but in multiple agency cases, you run the risk of someone coming upon corruption, then the entire reputation of the department comes under the microscope, and it has happened before but it always seem to be part of someones theory as to why a case, remains unsolved .

Maybe if the enforced DUIs theyd catch a suspect, David Berkowitz was caught over a parking ticket, so its possible, but that didnt happen. All you can do now is focus on the known and try avoid wild speculation