GUILTY VA - Tina Smith, 41, slain, 12yo daughter abducted, Salem, 2 Dec 2010 - #6

[impatientredhead]

Under the circumstances, I believe that they would have sedated her had she objected to a GYN exam. She might have been under some sedation anyway, given the turn of events...the reality of the whole ordeal had to have set in hard when police got involved. I'm not talking about anesthesia...although that's not out of the question...I'm thinking more on the line of a tranquilizer, probably by injection. Her health is too important to skip it. Evidence of rape/assault would have also been a high-level consideration but her physical health would have been paramount. I would like to believe that a city like San Francisco would be extremely sensitive to children and to sexual assault and have some very well-trained, highly empathetic medical people to conduct exams such as this.

They have people who are trained to work with sexual assault victims and they will help the victim decide how to proceed, explain why it is important, make them feel safe and secure. According the SANE program there has to be reason to believe the assault happened within the last seventy hours.

But the last thing they are going to do is forcibly exam a rape victim. That would be irresponsible and further traumatize them. The program stats show that victims that are handled by trained medical workers are more likely to comply and more likely to cooperate with prosecution.

If she absolutely did not want to be examined most STDs can be dxed in other ways (blood for many of them), or the exam can be approached again at a later time. But you cannot put forensic collection ahead of the psychological well being of the victim.

As I said in my previous post these charges are really optional all things considered.

I am confident they have handled her with the utmost care for her well being and with an eye towards his prosecution. She has to be so happ to be home tonight.

 

[SmoothOperator]

I find it REALLY strange that so many people are quick to call this cashier a liar... or say that he is only out for attention by talking to the media about what he seen going on between JE and Britney. First of all, none of us know what was really going on. Second of all, this cashier wasn't the one who murdered a mother of a young girl and took off with girl. So I think we all need to remember who the real monster in all of this is... JE. Not a cashier at a store.

I don't know about the laws there... but in Florida... if JE came in with Britney (who looks at least 16 to me) and he asks the cashier for two packs of cigarette's... one Malboro Red... one Malboro Light... By LAW the cashier would have to ID Britney. Same thing with beer. So, I can see Britney having a fake ID. Having a fake ID has nothing to do with anything that has happened the past week and a half... so, I will say that you will be surprised what 12-year-old's can do. You would be surprised at how easy it would be for any kid, who knows how to use the internet or simply knows the right people, to get a fake ID.

So try to lay off the cashier until we find out what is really going on? Again, for all we know, he could be telling the truth!

ITA and find it totally inappropriate to be calling an innocent bystander a LIAR.. AN INNOCENT BYSTANDER that happened to be witness to these two{and not just on Fri, Dec.3rd}but on multiple occasions and not only states that she did infact use a fake id, and that there were obvious PDA between these two.. that the "lovey dovey" was to the point that workers in this store thought they were a couple..

I would say that with what little is known this is not surprising to many of us and this innocent bystander does not deserve to be WRONGLY labeled a liar when he simply is stating the truth of what he has witnessed on multiple occasions between these two..

 

[sarx]

A SAFE kit is not mandatory and a minor can consent or refuse to have one done. Again, for the states I know (and it may well be all states) a parent cannot force a minor either.

Edit to add-looking into this further, I cannot find any state where it is mandatory. In fact they cannot do a SAFE kit on someone who is drunk even they say "yes" because they can't give consent at that time.

Still looking into it further, but it appears sometimes victims are "lead" to believe that it's mandatory when it isn't.

 

[Lysistrata]

I just don't think BS has the luxury of deciding what crimes JE will be charged with, unfortunately. But, assuming that she does, do you think that the cops that found her, or the cops in VA, including her father, would NOT want her to undergo a GYN exam? She'd spent several days alone with a pedophile and, apparently, a violent, psychopathic one. Who can guess what he did or didn't do to that child? Other men? Foreign objects? Lacerations/tears? Sodomy? I don't even want to think about it! But, I'll bet the investigators and juvenile specialists thought about it. If we want her safe and healthy, how could that part of an exam be excluded?

 

[sarx]

I just don't think BS has the luxury of deciding what crimes JE will be charged with, unfortunately. But, assuming that she does, do you think that the cops that found her, or the cops in VA, including her father, would NOT want her to undergo a GYN exam? She'd spent several days alone with a pedophile and, apparently, a violent, psychopathic one. Who can guess what he did or didn't do to that child? Other men? Foreign objects? Lacerations/tears? Sodomy? I don't even want to think about it! But, I'll bet the investigators and juvenile specialists thought about it. If we want her safe and healthy, how could that part of an exam be excluded?

Oh they would absolutely want her to, and I'm sure they talked to her about it, but ultimately it was her decision to make.

 

[SmoothOperator]

My knowledge is only of personal experience in one state{the one I live in}that if the minor admits to ANY penetration whatsoever{and it needs to be clarified that does not mean just penile penetration, BUT ANYTHING penetration}..I think most understand without having to go into further detail what that clarification means{i.e. "heavy petting" some would call it, lots of teens consider it "messing around", this would be included as penetration}

If the minor admits to ANY PENETRATION she does not have a choice of whether a full rape kit, with all in entails including the follow up counseling, etc is performed. And of course from there the state has the right to press charges without the minors consent..she simply becomes a subponeaed witness to testify in the states case..

So, if she refuses to admit anything{even heavy petting, or messing around}in this state they would not force her to do rape kit, and again all that entails{which is a whole LOT!}

 

[Gizmorose]

The article I saw said they pretty much compared notes with each other after Tina left, confronted Tina about it in the following days, weren't confident that was enough and started calling child services on Monday. It took them a couple of days of redirects to get to the correct office. They told Tina that they had called CPS and she said he would be gone, she would call when he was packed up, she never called and the rest of the story we have seen.

The neighbors said he was creepy with her, the clerk said he thought they were a couple, someone at the school must have seen something, or other parents. He wasn't hiding the inappropriateness of their relationship. I can see how the family responded since it was their first exposure to it but from Tina, to the neighbors, to the bystanders it seems like many people were aware of it and did nothing.

Her family didn't even know he lived there until the holiday get together brought it out. They responded pretty quickly and followed up from I can see.

The family may not have known he had moved in by Thanksgiving but the following quote from BS's MS entry on 8/20 gives me the impression that BS's mother could possibly have met JE in August:

"heading to work, Mom is coming for 2 weeks, we are going to laugh so hard. Welcome to the crazy family Jeff, lmao" Mood: loved Aug 20

An Aug 26 quote: "what do you say when a parent who did not parent you gives you advice on parenting" Mood: Aug 26

Before anyone flames me...I know that FB and MS aren't the be-all and end-all, or even the most reliable, of sources but I haven't any reason to doubt she posted this. If I am to take what she says literally then I can deduce that the grandmother was not happy with the way TS was parenting BS and TS was not pleased with the criticism. It makes me wonder if the advice given had anything to do with JE or was just of a general nature.

http://m.myspace.com/friends/friendstatushistory.wap?friendid=366946558&bfd=offdeck&p=15&cfp=1

 

[impatientredhead]

The family may not have known he had moved in by Thanksgiving but the following quote from BS's MS entry on 8/20 gives me the impression that BS's mother could possibly have met JE in August:

"heading to work, Mom is coming for 2 weeks, we are going to laugh so hard. Welcome to the crazy family Jeff, lmao" Mood: loved Aug 20

An Aug 26 quote: "what do you say when a parent who did not parent you gives you advice on parenting" Mood: Aug 26

Before anyone flames me...I know that FB and MS aren't the be-all and end-all, or even the most reliable, of sources but I haven't any reason to doubt she posted this. If I am to take what she says literally then I can deduce that the grandmother was not happy with the way TS was parenting BS and TS was not pleased with the criticism. It makes me wonder if the advice given had anything to do with JE or was just of a general nature.

Interesting, I had not seen those before. I thought he moved in in October, and the family that was on NG said thanksgiving was the first meeting, I wonder if he was there at that point.

 

[SmoothOperator]

yes, I believe she knew him in August..its been said that they met online several months before he actually moved in, in October.. So, that MS post would make sense..

Jeff wouldn't have been living in the home at that time but it seems as tho Tina and Jeff were getting pretty "tight" by this point..so, I could definitely see that Tina was going to be introducing Jeff to her mom while she was staying with Tina for 2 weeks..

But this doesn't mean that introduction/meeting ever came to fruition.. She is just implying IMO that was her intention at that moment of the post..to introduce Jeff to her mom.

So, its extremely possible that for whatever reason that meeting did not take place therefor Tina's mom would not have seen nor met Jeff, therefor would not have seen any inappropriate actions between Jeff and Brit..

And even if that meeting did take place it was still prior to Jeff living in the home..therefor I'd be willing to bet that his inappropriate in nature relationship with Brit had not yet begun and definitely not at the stage that it was at on Thanksgiving when the fam was appalled at what they witnessed between Jeff and Brit

 

[impatientredhead]

I just don't think BS has the luxury of deciding what crimes JE will be charged with, unfortunately. But, assuming that she does, do you think that the cops that found her, or the cops in VA, including her father, would NOT want her to undergo a GYN exam? She'd spent several days alone with a pedophile and, apparently, a violent, psychopathic one. Who can guess what he did or didn't do to that child? Other men? Foreign objects? Lacerations/tears? Sodomy? I don't even want to think about it! But, I'll bet the investigators and juvenile specialists thought about it. If we want her safe and healthy, how could that part of an exam be excluded?

She is not a criminal and not charged with anything. They can counsel and encourage her but they cannot take a rape victim and victimize them again with a forcible exam.

And if she is forced or bullied into complying, even if you set aside that you are causing more damage, you end up with a victim that does not trust you, withdraws from helping the state with their prosecution, and you damage your entire case.

They probably did get one completed, but they would have done so with her consent and participation in the process. And of course she will not get to unilaterally decide if those charges are included but if she is not interested in pursuing them it will have a large influence on how they proceed. Especially since they don't need those charges to bury him, literally bury him.

 

[SmoothOperator]

will someone please point me to where I might locate the 3 of them's MS and FB acct links{JE, TS, BS}..TIA

 

[Gizmorose]

Interesting, I had not seen those before. I thought he moved in in October, and the family that was on NG said thanksgiving was the first meeting, I wonder if he was there at that point.

I don't think JE had moved into the house yet. He apparently moved in at the time reported. I just found these two posts when nosing through the stream and thought they were interesting. Posts during that same time frame mention a "road trip". It is possible the visit from mother didn't occur or TS went to visit her instead.

 

[Gizmorose]

yes, I believe she knew him in August..its been said that they met online several months before he actually moved in, in October.. So, that MS post would make sense..

Jeff wouldn't have been living in the home at that time but it seems as tho Tina and Jeff were getting pretty "tight" by this point..so, I could definitely see that Tina was going to be introducing Jeff to her mom while she was staying with Tina for 2 weeks..

But this doesn't mean that introduction/meeting ever came to fruition.. She is just implying IMO that was her intention at that moment of the post..to introduce Jeff to her mom.

So, its extremely possible that for whatever reason that meeting did not take place therefor Tina's mom would not have seen nor met Jeff, therefor would not have seen any inappropriate actions between Jeff and Brit..

And even if that meeting did take place it was still prior to Jeff living in the home..therefor I'd be willing to bet that his inappropriate in nature relationship with Brit had not yet begun and definitely not at the stage that it was at on Thanksgiving when the fam was appalled at what they witnessed between Jeff and Brit

Those were the only posts BS mentioned her mother so I did wonder if the visit occured. BS also alluded to a "road trip" ... makes me wonder if she visited her mother instead and got that parenting advise then.

 

[AvalonBlue]

With that behavior, there would be nothing the police could do. If it's not unwanted behavior, then it's not assault. If the mom says they're just affectionate, what can the police do? They can't arrest someone because a relative doesn't like that he's touching the girl's arm and hair. The police might find it kinda creepy, too, but I can't think of a charge that would fit the situation as it's been explained in the media.

IMHO, even a like we're dealing with here, would do at least some shakin' in his shoes if confronted by just the appearance of a couple of uniformed cops showing up on the doorstep to check out a suspicious situation reported by extended family members and/or a distraught and appropriately concerned mom.

Knowing that women are at the highest risk of physical harm/death from their abusers during the time they are finally attempting to separate themselves from their abusers, I fervently wish TS would have involved the police in removing JE from her and BS's home.

Reading the FB/MS pages available, plus other info we've become privy to, it is pretty clear that a crisis was not only brewing -- it had already blown a few gaskets. JE had no legal right to be in TS's home if she determined that she wanted him O-U-T.

*IF* she requested/demanded that he leave her home, the minute he gave her any trouble or threats about it, I wish she would have called 911. It was perfectly in her rights to do so. I just don't think she knew that, and/or, even if she did, so many of us women have been brought up believing we should not "make a fuss" or embarrass anyone or "make a bad situation worse" or supposedly "damage a man's ego," etc.

BIG RED BULL !!

In the WAY, WAY, Long Ago Past, in a Very Bad & Abusive Marriage, I had several situations where calling 911 was warranted. In a couple of those situations, just the fact that it was clear from the look in my eyes and the phone in my hand, the just LEFT!

And, from both my Long Ago Past, and my 25 years as a therapist advocating for other women, I've been impressed by any actual contact with the police in these types of circumstances. LE has always said that they would rather be called when there is something they can actually do to help versus later arriving at a scene where it is too late to do anything to help.

I am absolutely NOT blaming Tina here! I admire her for the stand it appears she took in attempting to get JE out of her home and away from her daughter! I am just so sad that it also appears that her brave stand all by herself resulted in her making the ultimate sacrifice of her life.

I am advocating that we stress to other women that they do not have to stand alone against someone who, for many reasons, physically, psychologically, and PSYCHOPATHICALLY, can overpower them in such a sick variety of ways.

It may not be okay to yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater if there is not a fire, however, it is WAY OKAY to yell "FIRE!" (literally and figuratively) on the street or on the phone if there is ANY kind of FIRE that is endangering you or the ones you love when you have a in your face threatening you!

In a women's self-defense course I took, we were taught that yelling "FIRE!" can be much more likely to get you immediate help than yelling "HELP!" or "RAPE!" in public situations where you realize you need rapid intervention.

Please encourage women at risk to alert law enforcement IF THEY CAN in *advance* of any situation where the presence of law enforcement might be able to protect them and their children from the violence of an in-home !

I admire Tina for attempting to deal with the situation she found herself and her daughter in. I just wish she would not have had to confront it all by herself.

IMO, she didn't stand a chance.

 

[impatientredhead]

Excellent post AvalonBlue.

I think she was embarassed.

She didn't tell anyone he was living there until the holiday dinner came.
There were tons of signs that things were off in a ditch early on, and the posts indicate there were major bumps in the road early on in October that clearly JE managed to smooth over. She was divorced, she had sent her son to live with his father where he died in a tragic accident (though one expert has chimed in saying that was a suicide and Tina was clearly in denial but who knows), she was getting input from her family about her parenting, she had a daughter struggling to find her way, and she invited a pedophile into her home, fell for the idea that he was courting her (a self described hopeless romantic) when she was just his access point to her twelve year old daughter.

I think she didn't ask anyone for help because she didn't foresee the violence. And she wanted to fix it at the first confrontation from her family, as quietly and controlled as she could. Inviting them in to see how in over her head she was too much of a barrier. And clearly she didn't realize even then how truly in over head she was.

Although she did seem to have a clear idea in her final status updates, but still didn't seek help, or grab Brittany and just run from the house. It is so heartbreaking to see people who had the instinct that they were in danger and ignored/surpressed/denied it.

 

[Lera213]

I don't think Tina was embarrassed but rather since her Xhusband is a cop, no way would she want any report of another man having to be ousted out of her house. Her husband would have taken Tina to court to gain custody and she knew this. I am no expert but my husband was a cop for 29 years so I know how Tina more than likely didn't want to involve the cops.

She would have if she knew she was going to be killed but in my opinion she thought she had it under control and it was just another issue to overcome.

Edit to add: Tina didn't want to tell the family about this guy yet because she wasn't sure how far the relationship would go. My guess is she thought turkey day would be the correct day. Probably a day or two before she might have had second thoughts but went ahead with the plans anyway thinking well after all, Let's forgive on Thanksgiving, and deal with it afterwards. MOO

 

[impatientredhead]

I don't think Tina was embarrassed but rather since her Xhusband is a cop, no way would she want any report of another man having to be ousted out of her house. Her husband would have taken Tina to court to gain custody and she knew this. I am no expert but my husband was a cop for 29 years so I know how Tina more than likely didn't want to involve the cops.

She would have if she knew she was going to be killed but in my opinion she thought she had it under control and it was just another issue to overcome.

Edit to add: Tina didn't want to tell the family about this guy yet because she wasn't sure how far the relationship would go. My guess is she thought turkey day would be the correct day. Probably a day or two before she might have had second thoughts but went ahead with the plans anyway thinking well after all, Let's forgive on Thanksgiving, and deal with it afterwards. MOO

Ramifications like having custody challenged by her ex when it came to light that she had moved an ex con into the house with Brittany is partially what I meant by embarassed. She knew her judgement was going to be called into question, so she didn't ask for help from anyone.

 

[Japandaaa]

One thing I asked one of my friends who had contact with JSE was when they started talking and she said he added her to his MySpace back at the end of Summer, stating he had just moved to the area and needed a job and friends to hang out with.

My question is where the heck was he before he "officially" moved into the Smith house ?

 

[Japandaaa]

Excellent post AvalonBlue.

I think she was embarassed.

She didn't tell anyone he was living there until the holiday dinner came.
There were tons of signs that things were off in a ditch early on, and the posts indicate there were major bumps in the road early on in October that clearly JE managed to smooth over. She was divorced, she had sent her son to live with his father where he died in a tragic accident (though one expert has chimed in saying that was a suicide and Tina was clearly in denial but who knows), she was getting input from her family about her parenting, she had a daughter struggling to find her way, and she invited a pedophile into her home, fell for the idea that he was courting her (a self described hopeless romantic) when she was just his access point to her twelve year old daughter.

I think she didn't ask anyone for help because she didn't foresee the violence. And she wanted to fix it at the first confrontation from her family, as quietly and controlled as she could. Inviting them in to see how in over her head she was too much of a barrier. And clearly she didn't realize even then how truly in over head she was.

Although she did seem to have a clear idea in her final status updates, but still didn't seek help, or grab Brittany and just run from the house. It is so heartbreaking to see people who had the instinct that they were in danger and ignored/surpressed/denied it.

At times, TS reminds me of my own mother. My parents got a divorce back when I started high school and I remember my mother never dated until about 10 years ago. She met a man here in Salem and after dating him for a couple of months, he moved into our home. He was nice, but controlling and that didn't settle with me and my younger brother ; so we always butted heads. I hated how he controlled my mother and she seemed like she wasn't allowed to have an opinion on things. I know a lot of times, even though our family knew about him, my mother was still embarrassed by some actions and comments my family would make. She always tried to take matters in her own hands and there were many times I called her "spineless" because I said she was too nice for her own good. Finally she was confronted by me and I told her about how I hated seeing her unhappy and I didn't understand why she wouldn't tell him to leave and after drilling her for what seemed like months, she finally told him to go. I remember he refused to at first, but then she said she would call the cops. Luckily he got the hint and left, but that was probably the most I've ever seen my mother stand up for herself. I was also present, along with my younger brother, when she told him to leave ; so she wasn't alone. If she was alone, I'm sure she would have gave in and let him stay. It's kind of sad to say my mother is still the same way meaning she can't really confront anyone, unlike me. I must have took after my father. LOL.

Overall, I can kind of understand the position TS was in because as I stated, my mother seems like her. I think they hate showing signs of anything going wrong in their lives because they want the appearance of being a strong women. Maybe it is embarrassing to them to try and seek help because they rather take care of things themselves, even if that means something may take a bit longer to find a solution for, but overall, I think it all comes down to pride.

 

[Patty G]

Does anyone have Brittany's birthdate?