Vatican calling for Boycott of Da Vinci Code

[TisHerself]

I think you have done a terrific job in this thread!!! We've all been dealing with posts that are not accurate, and sometimes outright false, and now some have turned to personal attacks, but you continue to handle yourself just fine. :blowkiss:

Thank you DK, and I just got several PM's from some who have not even posted on here telling me exactly what you just said. I have no problem defending my faith the personal attacks for doing so really are petty.:blowkiss:

 

[LuvChocolate]

Thank you DK, and I just got several PM's from some who have not even posted on here telling me exactly what you just said. I have no problem defending my faith the personal attacks for doing so really are petty.:blowkiss:

You've done an excellent job defending our church. Just wanted to say thank you.
It seems every time there is discussion about religion it always end up that way, having to defend. I know that many non-Catholics hear and listen to things that are not true about the RCC. Best way to find out is to ask a practicing Catholic or a priest.
Peace to all

 

[windovervocalcords]

All I am asking you is for empirical data regarding your beliefs....

I feel it is very important that women be allowed to be priests, as women are not second class citizens and there is no logical or empirical reason to bar this from this vocation. You seem to have a thing about controlling what people say and what beliefs they can and cannot have. You might be a lot happier, and would probably become more tolerant in the process, if you let the whole "attitude thang" go...

Maral...I understand what you are saying. People can believe in whatever they want to. The reason that I press 'Tis and DK harder is because they insist that their beliefs are empirically correct and the only "way" as it were....This I have trouble with, as it can become arrogant (in the case of 'Tis). With DK, I think that he truly believes in what he says he believes in, and his faith is a great comfort to him...In other words DK, please correct me if I am wrong....I think his faith is deeply personal and extremely important to him.

'Tism I get the sense from you that everything is a contest or a "one-upsmanship," and chance to tell people they are wrong and to correct them...This type of behavior usually results from people being uncomfortable with themselves and having issues to resolve...

Capp--

Catholics on this thread seem ok that the Church does not ordain women as priests. The only ordination option for Catholic women is to be nuns. Nuns do not say mass. They teach, are nurses and administrators and have social service careers or rarely pure monastics. These are their options, like it or not. If they do not like it they can leave the Church, but if I understand Maral, if they are baptized the Church has not let go of them.

If women desire to be equal to priests in the Catholic faith they are out of place (aka sol.)

Those of us who are not Catholics may shake our heads and marvel that Catholic women are satisfied with that but it makes no difference to them (and ultimately to those of us who are not Catholics.) One can see why it is so important and wonderful that there are so many different paths to practice a truly liberating path of spirituality.

Women who want to be active priests and Christians have other choices if they wish to ordain. Episocopals, for example, ordain women as priests.

To bring things back to the Da Vinci Code and Dan Brown's premise--that the RCC has "written the feminine out of its doctrine". This issue of women's ordination seems relevant and central, IMO.

I love when people ask questions. This thread is full of information and speaks to many different interests. May all benefit.

 

[JBean]

Capp--

Catholics on this thread seem ok that the Church does not ordain women as priests. The only ordination option for Catholic women is to be nuns. Nuns do not say mass. They teach, are nurses and administrators and have social service careers or rarely pure monastics. These are their options, like it or not. If they do not like it they can leave the Church, but if I understand Maral, if they are baptized the Church has not let go of them.

If women desire to be equal to priests in the Catholic faith they are out of place (aka sol.)

Those of us who are not Catholics may shake our heads and marvel that Catholic women are satisfied with that but it makes no difference to them (and ultimately to those of us who are not Catholics.) One can see why it is so important and wonderful that there are so many different paths to practice a truly liberating path of spirituality.

Women who want to be active priests and Christians have other choices if they wish to ordain. Episocopals, for example, ordain women as priests.

snip.

Good post!

 

[Amraann]

Although I think its obvious much of what Dan Brown Portrays is the truth..
Theologically his take on the villinizing of women due to there central role in pagen religeons is exactly what took place.
Seperate and long before his book that has been discussed.

Attacking a religeon .. or more to the point... what a religeon did 100's of years ago is not attacking people here.
I find it hard to understand why so many would defend the Catholic church for desicions they made long ago.

 

[windovervocalcords]

Although I think its obvious much of what Dan Brown Portrays is the truth..
Theologically his take on the villinizing of women due to there central role in pagen religeons is exactly what took place.
Seperate and long before his book that has been discussed.

Attacking a religeon .. or more to the point... what a religeon did 100's of years ago is not attacking people here.
I find it hard to understand why so many would defend the Catholic church for desicions they made long ago.

"Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent." (1 Tim 2:11-12)

God did not give women a place, in the Church, the family, or society, to teach men or to have authority over men.

Sacred Scripture clearly teaches that God gives men and women different roles in the Church, the family, and society. Men are intended by God to be teachers and leaders in the Church, the family, and society. Women should not have any kind of teaching role over adult men. Women should not have any kind of leadership role over adult men.

Women may teach and lead children, both boys and girls (even into the teenage years). God gave women the ability to become pregnant, to carry and give birth to children. In this way, God gave women also the primary role in teaching and leading children.

Women may teach and lead other women. An older and wiser woman may be a leader and teacher over other women, especially if they are younger or less knowledgeable than she. But it is not right for a young woman to take a role teaching or leading much older women, (unless those older women are mentally-disabled).
http://www.catholicplanet.com/women/roles.htm

By some estimates, the Vatican silenced or reprimanded more than 100 Roman Catholic theologians during John Paul's 26-year reign.

"Suppression of thought, loss of ideas, closing down of discussion -- that's not an act of faith. That's not of the Holy Spirit,"
said Sister Joan Chittister, a Benedictine nun from Erie, Pa.

Byrne was a nun until 2000, when she left her order, the Institute of the Blessed Virgin Mary, after refusing to repudiate the arguments for women's ordination in her book "Women at the Altar."
"I want debate on this to be reopened," she said. "The arguments against women's ordination have never really been spelled out conclusively. It's not that I think there will be women priests overnight, but why can't we even talk about this?"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A57560-2005Apr15.html
Eigholic scholars in the world support the ordination of women.

Read here the complete texts of many contemporary Catholic theologians who give their reasons in favour of women priests.
Eloquently states the issue my dear friends face:
http://www.womenpriests.org/default.asp

 

[TisHerself]

Although I think its obvious much of what Dan Brown Portrays is the truth..
Theologically his take on the villinizing of women due to there central role in pagen religeons is exactly what took place.
Seperate and long before his book that has been discussed.

Attacking a religeon .. or more to the point... what a religeon did 100's of years ago is not attacking people here.
I find it hard to understand why so many would defend the Catholic church for desicions they made long ago.

I have to disagree with you it is not obvious that what Dan Brown says is true, in fact he himself says his book is fiction.
Theologically no The Bible and Scriptures does not villify women, Mary, Jesus mother was much loved and honored in The Bible as was Mary Magdelene.

Telling someone they have issues, are uncomfortable with themselves, have a need to control what others think and say. are unhappy, just because they are defending their beliefs against constant attacks .... is personal attacks...

Why do you find it hard to believe that we are defending Our Church against untruths that are being posted? What is so hard to understand about that? The Doctrine/Dogma of The Catholic Church is Infallible it does not change....... What desicions from a long time ago?....... That is The Catholic Church.

 

[cappuccina]

...and I appreciate others who are not afraid to learn and to ask questions...

I have many close friends who are Catholic, as well as close friends of many, many faiths. We talk avout our beleifs and ask questions. Frankly, I have run into very few individuals in my time with the "attitude thing" going on...Most of the Catholics I know are very much like Maral...We talk about things back and forth and learn from each other, knowing we will never agree. 'Tis, quite frankly, I am not used to the "attitude thing" being shoved down my throat...You confuse debate and education with I'm not sure what...

You have an attitude problem; I cannot get any clearer than that...Not just on this thread, but elsewhere as well...I get the sense that you don't really want to come across this way, but that this is an ingrained defense mechanism for you. Please don't tell me you don't want to hear this, because you asked, so I am answering you...

Certainly you would not be able to function this way in a comparative religion class, for example...

I mentioned education before because it has been my experience that with formal or informal learning comes tolerance. Those who are less tolerant are usually afraid of something...

My friends who are Catholics DO NOT AGREE WITH CERTAIN CHURCH POSITIONS, including, but not limited to: birth control; abortion if it is a case of rape, incest or necessary to save the life of the mother (meaning they would agree with abortion in the limited circumstances I listed); women as priests; the possibility of forgivenss for anyone who professes to believe in certain tenets, no matter what the crime/sin; and so on.

Frankly, NONE of these people has a blind allegiance to their church, nor do any of the other persons of othe faiths, with the exception of the Born Again and Mormon friends I have, who, while more rigid in their beleif structure, are actually more tolerant in pratical situations and certainly are not snooty...

Amraan, I agree with you that there are some very, very longstanding issues vis a vis women and the RCChurch; the ordination of women is just the tip of the freakin' iceberg...

 

[BhamMama]

"Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent." (1 Tim 2:11-12)

God did not give women a place, in the Church, the family, or society, to teach men or to have authority over men.

Sacred Scripture clearly teaches that God gives men and women different roles in the Church, the family, and society. Men are intended by God to be teachers and leaders in the Church, the family, and society. Women should not have any kind of teaching role over adult men. Women should not have any kind of leadership role over adult men.

Sorry, but that's wrong. G-d did indeed give woman a place in Church, in the family and in the society. Seperate but equal, different duties but just as important as mens.

As a matter of fact it is taught in many faiths that women are more important than men because we have more bindah, bindah meaning intelligence, understanding, compassion and intuition. She is also the one that has the most influence over men, starting from their birth, period.

Now I know that some may think that if you are traditional and go by what others have deemed sufferage that it may not seem important to you. But G-d gave us these things because we are woman, not because we are the weaker but because those gifts would be lost on a man by his very nature. But if you don't believe that you'll think we are being pushed around, under someones thumb or worse, ignored.

Please don't go around saying G-d didn't give us any place. That belittles what we do have. In the end, HIS way is the only way. And from what I know of other religions, His way is being followed. It was laid out for us thousands of years ago.

You can agrue your perceptions of what any religion does regarding how little or how much they let a woman join in a service, but don't say that we don't have a place in the family and society. That is a sweeping generalization that doesn't fly, esp in this day and age when our choices are being questioned and we have to fight so hard for what little understanding we get from others. You have to remember, the religion is NOT the church!

Proud mother of seven, who lives according to the Talmud and is very happy she's in control!

Edited to add, this is not towards the op but the author of the article.

 

[windovervocalcords]

I have to disagree with you it is not obvious that what Dan Brown says is true, in fact he himself says his book is fiction.
Theologically no The Bible and Scriptures does not villify women, Mary, Jesus mother was much loved and honored in The Bible as was Mary Magdelene.

Telling someone they have issues, are uncomfortable with themselves, have a need to control what others think and say. are unhappy, just because they are defending their beliefs against constant attacks .... is personal attacks...

Why do you find it hard to believe that we are defending Our Church against untruths that are being posted? What is so hard to understand about that? The Doctrine/Dogma of The Catholic Church is Infallible it does not change....... What desicions from a long time ago?....... That is The Catholic Church.

Your post confuses me.

There are posts in this thread which use links that say they are Catholic sources.

I haven't always checked ahead of time but I am trying to be more careful in my choice of sources in an effort to keep the dialogue open.

DVC raises the feminist question by focusing on Mary Magdalene and discussing goddess religions and the feminine in spirituality.

This is an essential question to many of my friends, who, like Cappucina come from different faith backgrounds.

 

[windovervocalcords]

Sorry, but that's wrong. G-d did indeed give woman a place in Church, in the family and in the society. Seperate but equal, different duties but just as important as mens.

As a matter of fact it is taught in many faiths that women are more important than men because we have more bindah, bindah meaning intelligence, understanding, compassion and intuition. She is also the one that has the most influence over men, starting from their birth, period.

Now I know that some may think that if you are traditional and go by what others have deemed sufferage that it may not seem important to you. But G-d gave us these things because we are woman, not because we are the weaker but because those gifts would be lost on a man by his very nature. But if you don't believe that you'll think we are being pushed around, under someones thumb or worse, ignored.

Please don't go around saying G-d didn't give us any place. That belittles what we do have. In the end, HIS way is the only way. And from what I know of other religions, His way is being followed. It was laid out for us thousands of years ago.

You can agrue your perceptions of what any religion does regarding how little or how much they let a woman join in a service, but don't say that we don't have a place in the family and society. That is a sweeping generalization that doesn't fly, esp in this day and age when our choices are being questioned and we have to fight so hard for what little understanding we get from others. You have to remember, the religion is NOT the church!

Proud mother of seven, who lives according to the Talmud and is very happy she's in control!

I am on the same page.

The article I linked does not reflect my view. Quite the opposite. I marvel that Catholic women make peace with the doctrine. Apparently, they do. (And some are actually peaceful lol!)

I practice in a tradition that does not see "gender" as having anything to do with the divine within and women are as free to go as far as they wish in their spiritual development.

 

[TisHerself]

...and I appreciate others who are not afraid to learn and to ask questions...

I have many close friends who are Catholic, as well as close friends of many, many faiths. We talk avout our beleifs and ask questions. Frankly, I have run into very few individuals in my time with the "attitude thing" going on...Most of the Catholics I know are very much like Maral...We talk about things back and forth and learn from each other, knowing we will never agree. 'Tis, quite frankly, I am not used to the "attitude thing" being shoved down my throat...You confuse debate and education with I'm not sure what...

You have an attitude problem; I cannot get any clearer than that...Not just on this thread, but elsewhere as well...I get the sense that you don't really want to come across this way, but that this is an ingrained defense mechanism for you. Please don't tell me you don't want to hear this, because you asked, so I am answering you...

Certainly you would not be able to function this way in a comparative religion class, for example...

I mentioned education before because it has been my experience that with formal or informal learning comes tolerance. Those who are less tolerant are usually afraid of something...

My friends who are Catholics DO NOT AGREE WITH CERTAIN CHURCH POSITIONS, including, but not limited to: birth control; abortion if it is a case of rape, incest or necessary to save the life of the mother (meaning they would agree with abortion in the limited circumstances I listed); women as priests; the possibility of forgivenss for anyone who professes to believe in certain tenets, no matter what the crime/sin; and so on.

Frankly, NONE of these people has a blind allegiance to their church, nor do any of the other persons of othe faiths, with the exception of the Born Again and Mormon friends I have, who, while more rigid in their beleif structure, are actually more tolerant in pratical situations and certainly are not snooty...

Amraan, I agree with you that there are some very, very longstanding issues vis a vis women and the RCChurch; the ordination of women is just the tip of the freakin' iceberg...

No you are wrong I did not ask you to continue your personal attacks on me, and to continue telling me what is wrong with me.
I am quite frankly getting tired of it I was not aware that this is what this thread was supposed to be about. You continually attacking me.

I want you to tell me specifically what attitude thing I have shoved down your throat????
I also asked in my last post how I am contolling what you say specifically??????
I also want to know how I am trying "One upsmanship"???????????

How do I confuse debate and education??????????

I want you to tell me specifically.

 

[TisHerself]

Your post confuses me.

There are posts in this thread which use links that say they are Catholic sources.

I haven't always checked ahead of time but I am trying to be more careful in my choice of sources in an effort to keep the dialogue open.

DVC raises the feminist question by focusing on Mary Magdalene and discussing goddess religions and the feminine in spirituality.

This is an essential question to many of my friends, who, like Cappucina come from different faith backgrounds.

LOL your post confuses me, what post? what thread?

Oh OK I reread it I get what you are saying now, sorry I am tired, any source can say it is Catholic does not make it so. Some of the sites you posted are not in full accordance with The Vatican and are not fully Catholic.
Therefor some things that are posted on some of those sites are not the true Doctrine/Dogma or beliefs of the Church. So when they are posted, and I or someone else sees it who is Catholic and knows it is not the truth we are going to say so. That does not mean that we are telling others they have to believe what we believe just that what is being posted is not the truth about Our Faith.

 

[windovervocalcords]

"We are defending Our Church against untruths that are being posted?"

I have posted a link here and there that said it was Catholic and later discovered it was not Catholic. Tonight I posted again and think the sources are either the Washington Post or a Catholic magazine.

The Doctrine/Dogma of The Catholic Church is Infallible it does not change.......

That is your particular view of infallibility, this is debated by Catholic scholars ( and other Catholic doctrines are debated.)

Some dissenting views are suppressed even in modern times....

The Church does change its own rules and practices.

In this one point, Dan Brown speaks the truth. The Church does suppress dissent within its ranks.

 

[windovervocalcords]

LOL your post confuses me, what post? what thread?

Oh OK I reread it I get what you are saying now, sorry I am tired, any source can say it is Catholic does not make it so. Some of the sites you posted are not in full accordance with The Vatican and are not fully Catholic.
Therefor some things that are posted on some of those sites are not the true Doctrine/Dogma or beliefs of the Church. So when they are posted, and I or someone else sees it who is Catholic and knows it is not the truth we are going to say so. That does not mean that we are telling others they have to believe what we believe just that what is being posted is not the truth about Our Faith.

Thank you for clarifying your post. This makes much more sense. Fatigue does you well my friend.

Have a good rest.

 

[TisHerself]

"We are defending Our Church against untruths that are being posted?"

I have posted a link here and there that said it was Catholic and later discovered it was not Catholic. Tonight I posted again and think the sources are either the Washington Post or a Catholic magazine.

The Doctrine/Dogma of The Catholic Church is Infallible it does not change.......

That is your particular view of infallibility, this is debated by Catholic scholars ( and other Catholic doctrines are debated.)

Some dissenting views are suppressed even in modern times....

The Church does change its own rules and practices.

In this one point, Dan Brown speaks the truth. The Church does suppress dissent within its ranks.

No it is not my own particular view Church Doctrine Infallibility does NOT change it is NOT debatable .
Some practices and rules can be changed, those are not Doctrines, Doctrines CANNOT be changed.

 

[Maral]

I am on the same page.

The article I linked does not reflect my view. Quite the opposite. I marvel that Catholic women make peace with the doctrine. Apparently, they do. (And some are actually peaceful lol!)

I practice in a tradition that does not see "gender" as having anything to do with the divine within and women are as free to go as far as they wish in their spiritual development.

Count me in on the same page, too.

Wind, you can't be accused of linking to an anti-Catholic site on that one, it is definitely Catholic, though extremely conservative. As far as the role of women in the Church, the author's interpretation is his own, not Church doctrine.

 

[Dark Knight]

...and I appreciate others who are not afraid to learn and to ask questions...

I have many close friends who are Catholic, as well as close friends of many, many faiths. We talk avout our beleifs and ask questions. Frankly, I have run into very few individuals in my time with the "attitude thing" going on...Most of the Catholics I know are very much like Maral...We talk about things back and forth and learn from each other, knowing we will never agree. 'Tis, quite frankly, I am not used to the "attitude thing" being shoved down my throat...You confuse debate and education with I'm not sure what...

You have an attitude problem; I cannot get any clearer than that...Not just on this thread, but elsewhere as well...I get the sense that you don't really want to come across this way, but that this is an ingrained defense mechanism for you. Please don't tell me you don't want to hear this, because you asked, so I am answering you...

Certainly you would not be able to function this way in a comparative religion class, for example...

I mentioned education before because it has been my experience that with formal or informal learning comes tolerance. Those who are less tolerant are usually afraid of something...

My friends who are Catholics DO NOT AGREE WITH CERTAIN CHURCH POSITIONS, including, but not limited to: birth control; abortion if it is a case of rape, incest or necessary to save the life of the mother (meaning they would agree with abortion in the limited circumstances I listed); women as priests; the possibility of forgivenss for anyone who professes to believe in certain tenets, no matter what the crime/sin; and so on.

Frankly, NONE of these people has a blind allegiance to their church, nor do any of the other persons of othe faiths, with the exception of the Born Again and Mormon friends I have, who, while more rigid in their beleif structure, are actually more tolerant in pratical situations and certainly are not snooty...

Amraan, I agree with you that there are some very, very longstanding issues vis a vis women and the RCChurch; the ordination of women is just the tip of the freakin' iceberg...

Well, then don't join our church, simple as that, lol. We'd love to have ya, but not if you'd be unhappy. Otherwise, our doctrines are not of your concern, I'd say.

 

[BhamMama]

I am on the same page.

The article I linked does not reflect my view. Quite the opposite. I marvel that Catholic women make peace with the doctrine. Apparently, they do. (And some are actually peaceful lol!)

I practice in a tradition that does not see "gender" as having anything to do with the divine within and women are as free to go as far as they wish in their spiritual development.

Oh hon, didn't mean to imply you felt that way. I have a bad habit of using you as a general you, not meant towards any one person. Flog me later okay?

 

[narlacat]

this is not directed at any person in particular...

for those who understand, no explanation is necessary. for those who dont, no explanation will suffice.

intolerance is rarely unlearned.

love one another. love really is all there is.

Mira
You hit the nail on the head.
Love is all there is.
All that is.