Verdict: GUILTY for both Millard and Smich of 1st degree murder #2

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BBM. I agree and disagree. ;)

I think that the people who see reasonable doubt as to Smich's guilt are a mix of people, same as those who believe DM and MS have been correctly convicted. Some of the people who think Smich might not be guilty of 1st degree are thoughtful, caring posters who I respect. (And this is in reference to everywhere online, not just here.) Some of the people who think Smich might not be guilty are just stubborn, argumentative types. Some are probably friends of his. Some enjoy the sound of their own online voices and post diatribes in other cases too about reasonable doubt.

And the same goes for those who agree with the jury that MS and DM are guilty of 1st degree. Some of those are thoughtful, caring people. Some are vicious, hang 'em before we hear the evidence types, etc. etc.

There's just no putting everyone in a neat box, good or bad. I think the frustration seen online comes from both camps dealing with the less than reasonable people from either side.

MOO

Fair enough :) Although I was specifically referring to myself and the person I quoted, I do see your point.
 
The thing about MS being a crack dealer is you have to be a certain type of person to do that successfully.

You have to be dominant and controlling, and totally cold-hearted. Your clients are a tough crowd, emotionally labile, dangerous. MS would have had to have stood up to that and dominated.

I don't think he was that weak a character as compared to DM. If he was strong and dominant enough to sell crack, he was more controlling in his relationships than people have implied.

I completleyt agree with what you are saying about a crack dealer and now tough they have to be, and cold hearted and greedy essentially. However, I am under the impression that MS was not a real 'crack dealer' that has a large clientele, drives or has a regular driver, and often doesn't even use the stuff. IMO from what I have seen so far, I see him as more of a drug user who may have sold small amounts of things here and there to support his own drug use, or facilitate sales to get a ride, some drugs, some cash or whatever. Jmo

I also think (and you may too) that regardless of whether he was consuming or supplying, I agree that the ongoing lifestyle often brings out a very selfish, cold side and often the worst traits of somebody.
 
It wasn't all one sided. The mention below of DM being spoiled isn't the complete picture. I was reading about another murder committed by a wealthy heir and the expected difficulty seating a jury due to the spoiled rich kid stereotype. It's not unusual for people to be delighted to see such people fall.

Here's how Adrian Humphreys summed it up:

He cautioned jurors to not use “bad character” evidence to determine they “likely” were involved or were “the type of person who is deserving of punishment.”

Millard, court heard, was a spoiled, reckless, domineering man involved with drugs and guns. He reveled in “missions” to steal vehicles and equipment with his circle of friends.

Smich was abusive and lazy, a drug dealer with a criminal record for theft. He liked guns and graffiti, and was immersed in rap music, penning and performing violent lyrics.

“None of the accused persons is on trial here for possessing a firearm, prior thefts or using marijuana,” said Goodman.

“They are not on trial for their lifestyle choices, taste in rap music, playing of video games or for their associations with persons of some questionable character or disrepute.”​

I'd add manipulative and calculating (even toward friends) to DM's list as well as brazen. We also know he had a tendency to not pay people promptly if at all, including JV (and consequently his crew of workers). Some would include that he had three girlfriends/FWBs, at least one who didn't know about the others.

The impression I've gotten is that most of us seem to accept the presented indications of DM's bad-character as aspects of who he is.
 
This, exactly. I have no problem with people having a difference of opinion. But when suddenly, they are assuming the jury made their decisions for the wrong reason, or without enough evidence, or that they could have lied and been searching on their phones for info they shouldn't see, or that the judge made errors on allowing certain evidence (then ignoring WHY the bad character evidence was allowed, without understanding the law), that's when I get upset. Both of these clowns received a fair trial, the judge did an amazing job, and the jury deserves our respect, not our accusations of wrong doing.

Respectfully, NashBridges2, I would like to point out that I am one of the "people" having a difference of opinion. I have never, ever nor have seen the other two "people" state, assume or imply anything that you are suggesting. We simply reply to queries with our opinion and an explanation to why this is what we believe. In my post below it is obvious that I was NOT ignoring WHY the bad character evidence was NOT allowed, and WITH my understanding of the law respectfully explained that to me, I felt, it was something that should have been seen by the jury. AGAIN, I understand, this evidence could and probably will be used in future trials and it IS important, for that trial, that the integrity of the evidence not be tainted.

And that is exactly why I believe there was too much evidence suppressed that should have been allowed in this case, however, if presented here would present legal arguments down the road regarding the integrity of evidence in future trials.

The text convo between Iisho & Millard clearly show the "state of mind" of DM regarding intent and premeditation to use that gun. Doesn't matter when it took place as it didn't reference a date or victim. It also shows that clearly there is a relationship between MWJ & DM that does not include MS. Though MS stated in testimony he was aware of the gun(s) is there evidence that he was part of the conversation regarding intent???? IMO that text clearly shows proof of Aiding & Abetting and possible charges for MWJ. He sold the gun DM used to commit murder knowing DM's intent to use it and then offered to change it's "print" after the fact. MOO
 
For Sharlene Bosma, the "new normal" by Molly Hayes, The Hamilton Spectator

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/6730565-for-sharlene-bosma-the-new-normal-/

' With the trial now over, there will surely be a void for the Bosma family, without the hectic ritual of court to focus on and as the dozens of friends and family who have surrounded her family each day go back to their own lives. But Sharlene says she has long been ready to move forward with hers as well.

"I don't love being constantly surrounded by people ... I need to retreat, I need my own space. To process information, I have to do it alone," she says, of finding relief in silence.


"It was Tim who was the social butterfly."


But she is grateful for the endless support she has had — not just from family and friends and her church community, but even from perfect strangers. She is uncomfortable with the attention, but recognizes how much Tim has come to mean to so many people. '


Just dropping by to share this news article. It is a must-read.

All MOO.

This was the part of the interview that got to me.....

She spent many hours mentally calculating how quickly she could jump the barrier and get to them.
"I remember thinking, 'I could do it,'" she says.


 
There was no trial evidence wrt personality disorders in either of the accused. It's speculation by the publc. Lots of people have personality disorders .. the existence of such doesn't make them guilty.

This bears repeating, sorry to be late to the party on this one. Neither personality disorders, nor diagnosable neurological abnormalities (such as psychopathy, FAS, and some others) have any necessary relationship to criminal responsibility, guilt or innocence. They can conceivably (big CAUTION sign here) be mitigating factors in sentencing or in determining appropriate treatment. Also, there are certainly different types of personality disorders and neurological or behavioral disorders, of which none are shown to be causally related to criminal behaviour though several, such as FAS, are highly correlated with later incarceration rates. IMO, these provide opportunities for preventive intervention, not shoulder-shrugging on the part of those who have opportunities to make a difference. The research in cognitive neuroscience and how to intervene to minimize the effects of faulty "wiring" is ongoing and positive. There is room for optimism here.

I think speculation on whether the accused (in this case or others) suffers from such conditions is not inappropriate, however. Informed speculation also leads to greater awareness on the part of the public, and knowledge is power. TV and movies, as well as sensational crimes, give folks the impression that a "psychopath" is a violent, dangerous person, almost certainly a criminal, and potentially if not actually homicidal. This is wildly at variance with the facts. Most psychopaths (according to Dr. Robert Hare, arguably the leading authority on the subject) are not lawbreakers, but they are wont to wreak havoc in the lives of people around them due to their manipulative, narcissistic, self-serving ways. Those who do break laws are more likely to be corporate robber barons than serial killers. It behooves the rest of us (the 95% +\- a couple of points) to learn more about how psychopathic personalities operate and the best ways to deal with them, so that the least collateral damage takes place. It's almost a certainty (statistically) that we all know, work for or are related to at least one such person. Hare's own book is a good place to start, as is one called Snakes in Suits (HPL has it), about psychopaths in the workplace.

As for FAS, we're unlikely to know, but estimates are that 10% of babies born in Ontario are alcohol-affected, so we are also in everyday contact with people who have varying degrees of brain damage in utero from alcohol exposure. There are some useful guidelines for dealing with people like this as well. A confirmed diagnosis in childhood of FAS or CD (Conduct Disorder) is a red flag that provides an opportunity to ensure the young person gets the opportunity to develop along pro-social lines. I'm not sure how many here followed the case of the Richardson family murders in Medicine Hat in 2006. That was a horrific case, where one of the perpetrators was a 12-year-old juvenile, diagnosed with CD. It appears now (fingers crossed) that the intensive intervention the judge ordered put in place for her during her incarceration has been a success, though time will tell. But, we should not wait for a CD child to commit a homicide before providing intervention. I've found when helping parents advocate for their high-risk children that appropriate services are extremely limited. If you can't pay for these services in the private sector, the child is unlikely to be served appropriately.

But to reiterate sillybilly's point, most individuals with personality or neurological disorders, of whatever kind, do not commit crimes, and if they do, it is only tangentially related to their "disorder," not caused by it. Individuals, whatever their challenges, make choices for which they are responsible except in cases of severe mental illness. That's a different issue entirely.
 
Alcohol can make people nauseous and vomit, oxy/opiate use can can make people nauseous and vomit
Of course mixing alcohol and oxys/opiates somebody will be just as likely to vomit, and often moreso IMO.

It is a common side effect of opiates/morphine/heroin. People will throw up and just take more if possible or reingest what they lost. (Gross I know) Often rebound headaches and nausea from the drugs. And not being able to keep ones eyes awake "nodding off"

But you are forgetting that these guys are partiers. Sure some kid stealing from his parent's medicine cabinet and going to a party to drink might have a bad experience. But DM and MS were partying with all kinds of drugs all the time. Their systems were experienced in dealing with drugs and they were experienced in dosing themselves.

IMO

I think MS, loaded on beer and oxy, was in his preferred state on the day of the IT test drive. That was his normal. I think they chickened out at the threat of IT.

I completleyt agree with what you are saying about a crack dealer and now tough they have to be, and cold hearted and greedy essentially. However, I am under the impression that MS was not a real 'crack dealer' that has a large clientele, drives or has a regular driver, and often doesn't even use the stuff. IMO from what I have seen so far, I see him as more of a drug user who may have sold small amounts of things here and there to support his own drug use, or facilitate sales to get a ride, some drugs, some cash or whatever. Jmo

I also think (and you may too) that regardless of whether he was consuming or supplying, I agree that the ongoing lifestyle often brings out a very selfish, cold side and often the worst traits of somebody.

All we know is that NS said MS was a crack dealer.

Alcohol, pot, oxy: MS had a large monkey on his back. That orange guy was worth a buck a gram or $60 on the street and that is just one pill. Without a job, it's obvious that he'd have to sell (or steal) large amounts of things to support his lifestyle.
 
And that is exactly why I believe there was too much evidence suppressed that should have been allowed in this case, however, if presented here would present legal arguments down the road regarding the integrity of evidence in future trials.

The text convo between Iisho & Millard clearly show the "state of mind" of DM regarding intent and premeditation to use that gun. Doesn't matter when it took place as it didn't reference a date or victim. It also shows that clearly there is a relationship between MWJ & DM that does not include MS. Though MS stated in testimony he was aware of the gun(s) is there evidence that he was part of the conversation regarding intent???? IMO that text clearly shows proof of Aiding & Abetting and possible charges for MWJ. He sold the gun DM used to commit murder knowing DM's intent to use it and then offered to change it's "print" after the fact. MOO

Well, the law is dealing with MWJ.

MS traded gun pics with DM and posed with the gun. He looked forward to the fireworks. He understood there was a gun and the intent of the gun.
 
I don't think he was that weak a character as compared to DM. If he was strong and dominant enough to sell crack, he was more controlling in his relationships than people have implied.

Would a such person become scared of DM as MS in his testimony?
 
Would a such person become scared of DM as MS in his testimony?

See, that's why I don't believe MS's testimony. He tried to make himself out to be a weak underling, when we know from his dealings in the world that he had to be a tough, dominant character.

That's not to say DM wasn't more dominant. He had all the money, after all.

It's just that they were both cold-hearted predators. They had that in common.
 
Respectfully, this is not always true whatsoever about being able to just sleep off or drink off opiate withdrawal. Take this from personal experience in this area.

I would say I think I do get your point though, in terms of how fast the peak be duration is for crack/coaching vs opiates/Oxys. IMO the desperation one feels with smoking crack cocaine for example can start coming within minutes of the last hit, whereas often the opiate user may have hours before their desperation starts really ramping up. Also, Crack pushes users more to a dark underbelly of society as it is obviously imo extra stigmatized, (and always illegal) and involves having to be away from people to use it and hide its use. So I do find that the lifestyle itself can pull people in a more obvious way to the point of no return vs a pill abuser who can be more discreet by far when using.

However opiate withdrawal does not just go away on its own and it is extremely physically and psychologically addictive.

I have personally known previously outstanding people getting into opiate pills eg. doctors, nurses, end up stealing from patients, Using at work, lying and committing fraud, or getting to the point where they never had a speeding ticket but find themselves seriously contemplating robbing a pharmacy for a fix. Complete desperation.....

Sorry if too off topic, I'm behind on threads and just thought I'd give respond to OPs post :)
IMO

I know personally of a six figure earning professional whose senior role required him among other things to be a moral example and leader who had a spectacular fall from grace when he got caught attempting to fill a Percocet prescription that he had changed the amount on from 30 pills to 300. Addiction is a terrible taskmaster.
 
Please do not post complaints about how people post on this thread.
If you see a post that is snarky or rude please hit the alert button.
This thread is not about Websleuths and it's members. It's about the verdict and the case.
Thank you,
Tricia
 
If anyone has a problem with TOS violations, use the ALERT feature to notify Mods/Admin and let them deal with it. Don't try to moderate the board ... that's what Moderators are for.

If it's not a TOS violation , but you simply disagree, state your case and MOVE ON (scroll & roll, Ignore). Do NOT discuss other posters and do not bicker. Discuss the case and the case only. Nobody wants to read bickering and pettiness on the threads. It is distracting and drives other members and guests away.


ETA: I see Tricia was ahead of me ... again.

Was going to remove my post but feel it bears repeating. If Tricia wishes to remove it, she's The Boss.
 
From Adam Carters piece "Wayward Son".

He gave them a description, including Millard’s “ambition” tattoo. Thanks to Millard’s previous charges of pot possession (from 2008) and driving while disqualified (2012), police services had that description on file.


I recall people saying here that Millard had no record and that LE had a record of his tattoos as a result of him being carded. Seems that info was incorrect and Millard did have some minor blemishes on his record.

http://www.cbc.ca/interactives/longform/news/wayward-son-dellen-millard-tim-bosma-trial
 
I recall people saying here that Millard had no record and that LE had a record of his tattoos as a result of him being carded. Seems that info was incorrect and Millard did have some minor blemishes on his record.

<rsbm>

People were saying that DM had no criminal record because that's what his lawyer said at the time of his arrest:


&#8220;If you met him, you would have no idea who he was or where he was from or that he had money because he&#8217;d never present like that,&#8221; Mr. Paradkar said of his client, who was arrested on May 10 and has no criminal record.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/chilling-details-emerge-in-mysterious-bosma-case/article12757899/


Millard has no previous criminal record, Paradkar said, and is CEO of his family company Millard Air Inc. &#8211; an airline services company run out of Waterloo International Airport.

http://globalnews.ca/news/557581/tim-bosma-suspect-due-in-court-tomorrow-while-police-continue-investigation/
 
So, having had the weekend to digest the verdicts, I have to say that I am not happy or overjoyed like many people are. What I feel is sadness. Yes, Millard and Smich got what they deserved, don't get me wrong, but its still sad that these two young men's lives are over before they've barely begun. If only they had focused their energies on more positive endeavours, and maybe if each of them had a good father figure, things might have turned out differently. Millard and Smich seem like a pair of trees that were growing crooked, they just needed somebody to set them straight. Never happened. Smith's dad was gone and his home seemed oblivious to the things he was doing. Millard's dad was apparently a drunk and his mom, well we all know about her. What kind of parents, well off ones at that, dump their kid on an uncle for two years. Seems that Millard was just appeased with whatever he wanted, rather than being properly parented.

I feel sorry for Smich's mom. I feel sorry for MB. As a parent I feel sick for what each of the parents of these kids must feel. I feel sorry for the Bosmas withe their horrible loss. Its just a huge tragedy, and for a stupid truck! There has just been so much pain for people on both sides of the fence, its just difficult to get any kind of pleasure out of this verdict.
 
Regarding appeals....

Any guesses as to what Dungey was thinking when he said he saw "strong grounds for appeal"? Was the bad character evidence too prejudicial against MS? How about DM? Will he claim the trial was too stacked against him compared to MS? How about when that one witness (Tim Cook) said the incinerator looked it had been used more than once?

Having been present for a number of legal arguments in this trial, I gained the impression that Justice Goodman was extremely cautious and made a maximum effort to create a fair and balanced trial for DM and MS. It actually seemed like Goodman regularly tipped the scales in favour of the accused, often to the astonishment and frustration of the Crown and observers of the court. Looking back, I can understand why he did this. The case was incredibly complex, and executing the trial was like crossing a minefield:

  • the multiple accused and the complications of a joint trial
  • the direct indictments
  • the high public interest in the case
  • the lack of direct evidence and breadth of circumstantial evidence
  • the overlapping of evidence with other crimes
  • the large number of witnesses, etc.

There were so many ways that a small misstep could have devastated this trial, so it seems logical that the judge would, at times, over-compensate toward the accused's favour when making rulings on various issues.

What I also find interesting is that Goodman spent a significant amount of time reviewing his charges with all counsel, soliciting their input and feedback in order to ensure that all sides were satisfied and any issues were cleared up prior to the jury being sequestered. While not all problems arising in a trial can be resolved via a judge's charges, the diligence and care that went into formulating the charges in this trial reflects the efforts to be fair and balanced.

As many have pointed out, there are rarely (if ever) first degree murder convictions that don't get appealed. However, I expect that Goodman's rulings and cautious actions in this trial will significantly weaken any appeal submissions. It will be interesting to see what DM's and MS's lawyers will pull out of their magic hats.
 
So, having had the weekend to digest the verdicts, I have to say that I am not happy or overjoyed like many people are. What I feel is sadness. Yes, Millard and Smich got what they deserved, don't get me wrong, but its still sad that these two young men's lives are over before they've barely begun. If only they had focused their energies on more positive endeavours, and maybe if each of them had a good father figure, things might have turned out differently. Millard and Smich seem like a pair of trees that were growing crooked, they just needed somebody to set them straight. Never happened. Smith's dad was gone and his home seemed oblivious to the things he was doing. Millard's dad was apparently a drunk and his mom, well we all know about her. What kind of parents, well off ones at that, dump their kid on an uncle for two years. Seems that Millard was just appeased with whatever he wanted, rather than being properly parented.

I feel sorry for Smich's mom. I feel sorry for MB. As a parent I feel sick for what each of the parents of these kids must feel. I feel sorry for the Bosmas withe their horrible loss. Its just a huge tragedy, and for a stupid truck! There has just been so much pain for people on both sides of the fence, its just difficult to get any kind of pleasure out of this verdict.

Well said.
 
I can see the denial of the change of venue being a matter of appeal.
 
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