Verdict: GUILTY for both Millard and Smich of 1st degree murder

[Kamille]

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 3m3 minutes ago
I'm hoping to make it to Meet the Press tonight, a chance for @TheSpec readers to meet our journalists. Starts 6:30 at our building. #HamOnt

 

[Dutchman]

Reading the testimony from MH today, I think we need to keep in mind, it's TD who is asking the questions. Steering MH in favour of MS. If we were to reread the crown's questioning, I think we would get a clearer picture of his true testimony. There's no mention of the lies told here and why he parted ways with AM. Just saying. I felt MH was one of the more honest witnesses they had called. TD treated him harshly, at the very least he showed true remorse. Which I wish, more of them felt.

 

[mimimic]

Oh, here are my thoughts re: Hagerman's testimony as we heard it today. My thoughts always seem to make sense to me but, yet, get disproved time and again by these people.

#1 I don't recall hearing about the "lies that were told" today!

I don't know why MH says that AM was given the backpack and never looked inside when AM says he packed the bag himself. Was it a case of broken telephone, a misunderstanding? MH says that he hadn't been in touch with DM for a while and had just learned at the park on the 11th that AM was living at DMs house. If this is true, could he just have assumed that AM was given the backpack, just as he was given the toolbox. Or was that a careful statement to make his story more plausible, i.e. they were both given items and were unaware of the contents. I think this is where the pact comes in to play. MH says the pact was to get rid of the items asap. They did that so why the controversy about he "lies that were told"? I think the pact goes one step further and did include ensuring MS got the items (whether MS asked for them or DM instructed them to do it, I don't know and it doesn't matter to me) and to protect themselves by saying they never opened the backpack or toolbox. I think the pact was required because MH wanted zip to do with any of this and AM had to convince him by way of a pact that all they were going to do is drop the stuff to MS and it would be over. I think AM wanted to help out more but they had a pact not to get involved. Yet, AM is then arrested for murder and MH is the one to call crime stoppers to give up MS, so more happened then what was included in the pact and, maybe, that's why they no longer talk.

If this was the pact (to say they were given items, were unaware of the contents and to get rid of them immediately), then MH stuck to it and never wavered even though, he lied about it. Its all part of covering their own behinds. AM was the one to break the pact. Just me thinking out loud. All MOO.

This is all very good. So hard to figure out! question... was AM the one to say lies were told or MH?

 

[canadiangirl]

Reading the testimony from MH today, I think we need to keep in mind, it's TD who is asking the questions. Steering MH in favour of MS. If we were to reread the crown's questioning, I think we would get a clearer picture of his true testimony. There's no mention of the lies told here and why he parted ways with AM. Just saying. I felt MH was one of the more honest witnesses they had called. TD treated him harshly, at the very least he showed true remorse. Which I wish, more of them felt.

Line 3024/3025 - Molly Hayes - crown Craig Fraser questioning MH
3024 - He has not talked to AM since the events of May 6, 2013
3025 - "We'd come to an agreement relating to this case, he says", "Lies have been said" - Pillay objects #Bosma - April 6, 2016

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...__2QSDhYkGxMU/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=156108166

 

[Arnie M]

The toolbox was never buried. It has been in the courtroom as an exhibit.

I have always wondered where the contents of the toolbox went (the drugs) .... same as the backpack full of weed , it was never brought up in court ..... unless I missed it. Maybe the court decided not to get into all that in order to streamline the murder trial

 

[CJPRINCESS]

I think it's more a matter of both defense teams have successfully argued out any evidence of two guns. Doesn't mean that it isn't a possibility. MS himself indicated that there were "multiple" guns between them. That's more than two IMO.

MOO

Yes, very possibly and no one is disagreeing that there could be two guns BUT the point is, the jury can't assume there are two guns. Only evidence of one gun can be considered.

 

[amis_]

Oh you want to believe they were. They sat in that car on the way to Oakville in silence? Pffft. Tell me another one.

DM spent 50 minutes with MS before his arrest, not to mention countless hours after the murder during the cleanup but they never said anything to each other either? Pulleeze.

DM and CN never discussed anything about the "mission" they were partaking in while hiding evidence? Uh huh.

DM and MH never discussed anything about the toolbox when he was dropping it off? Really.

CN and MB never discussed the trailer/evening of the 9th or watched the news while drinking copious amounts of wine because it would upset them? Okay then.

CN and MB never discussed anything with AM while picking up Pedo and an envelope full of cash earmarked for "Moose"? Right.

The whole lot of them didn't spend countless hours both together and in small groups discussing everything with each other? Not a chance.

They all disgust me.

MOO

I wish I could like this more then once! Thanks for the laugh Kamille, funny and so true.

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[JPC]

My wondering about the palsy was based on seeing him in person at court a few times, just while being escorted in, or whatever.. and then I would think back to the photos I had seen, especially the mug shot, and it just made me wonder. Someone's description of the look of FAS.. sure wouldn't surprise me.. except that I had always thought that FAS facial features were lost as the child grew up. Maybe it is just an overbite thing. (Or is it underbite?)

I thought that he may have had Bell's Palsy when I saw him in arrest photos but then I noticed in a photo of him smiling widely from about 10 years ago he has a bad cross bite with a canine tooth forcing his bite to one side. Ortho could fix this because it later photos his smile seems okay. Once the brain is trained to have the jaw to naturally fall it is tough to change even with straight teeth. Just MOO.


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[ILoveDateline]

Thinking out loud back at you. The testimonies from both AM & MH are both basically the same in that they each had something that belonged to DM and that they both wanted to get rid of. The part that is confusing and difficult to understand is why would MH be adamant about AM saying that "Dellen had given him something and he knew that he had given him something as well" and "Dellen would've wanted the stuff to go to Mark" as opposed to agreeing that MS had asked for it. This implies that AM knew what he had and it wasn't drugs. If AM had packed up the back pack like he testified to he knew what was in it and there was a lot more then just pot, so how much drugs could be in the toolbox which MH said was small, more like a tackle box that was worth all this extra effort on his part. Wouldn't you just say hey, we have a situation, dump what Dellen gave you?????

I, overall, wanted to believe MH was telling the truth but his story keeps him and AM too clean for me to believe. Yes, why was MH adamant AM told him Dellen wanted the stuff to go to MS? It's hearsay, no? Doesn't this msg come via MS, give me all the drugs and the thing MH has. To me, I don't see a framing aspect. AM says he packed the bag himself. I believe that to be true. And so, you're right, now we know there was more in that bag. If AM and MH discuss what's in the bag, then they know the narcotics (or at least not all of them) aren't in the the toolbox. What is? It protects MH to say the bag of weed is intact already when AM receives it and the two are ignorant as to the contents, preserving the story that narcs are in the toolbox and not a gun.

But where are the lies? Did AM truly not tell this to MH.

Reading the testimony from MH today, I think we need to keep in mind, it's TD who is asking the questions. Steering MH in favour of MS. If we were to reread the crown's questioning, I think we would get a clearer picture of his true testimony. There's no mention of the lies told here and why he parted ways with AM. Just saying. I felt MH was one of the more honest witnesses they had called. TD treated him harshly, at the very least he showed true remorse. Which I wish, more of them felt.

We heard parts of testimony from all 3 sides today, it wasn't solely questioning from TD, though that's the part that talked about the pact. We did not hear about the lies that were told and that's the most important part IMO.

This is all very good. So hard to figure out! question... was AM the one to say lies were told or MH?

I'm pretty sure it was MH that said that line.

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[ILoveDateline]

I thought that he may have had Bell's Palsy when I saw him in arrest photos but then I noticed in a photo of him smiling widely from about 10 years ago he has a bad cross bite with a canine tooth forcing his bite to one side. Ortho could fix this because it later photos his smile seems okay. Once the brain is trained to have the jaw to naturally fall it is tough to change even with straight teeth. Just MOO.


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My dad got bells palsy temporarily once from stress and/or a compromised immune system. He didn't ask for clarification from the doctors. Half of his face went slack/paralysed one day and he went to the ER thinking it was a stroke. Apparently it was bells palsy. It went away 1-2 weeks later. That was pretty extreme though (included his entire side of face from eye to mouth) and was more than just a lopsided smirk.

ETA: I see now that bells palsy is temporary and that was you point. Semi-interesting, it can be treated with steroids. I assume not the same type DM was taking.
http://www.emedicinehealth.com/script/main/mobileart-emh.asp?articlekey=59395&page=1

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[brightii]

I think during the 50 minute visit between MS and DM, just prior to DM's arrest on May 10th, that DM told MS he gave the toolbox with 2 guns (murder weapons) inside of it to MH earlier that morning (4:00 am) for safekeeping. BD testified that there were two guns and one belonged to MS. Whether the judge wanted to limit the mention of two guns or not, BD's testimony is direct evidence for the jury to consider about there having been two guns, one belonging to MS and the other belonging to DM.

I think once AM was visited by CN and MB at Maplegate late on the 10th or in the wee hours of May 11th, it was decided between AM and CN (and possibly even MB) to get the guns in the toolbox from MH and get them to MS. Whether or not MS wanted the guns or expected that they'd be laid on him, matters little to me. MS was equally involved in the murder of TB along with DM. After DM's arrest, and with his lawyer stating publicly at a presser that LE were looking into the framing aspect, I believe panic then set in for MS and all bets were off and he was going to look out for himself as MS thought then and there that DM was going to try to pin everything on MS alone. That's the reason paranoia suddenly overtook MS.

Also, I have always believed that both MM and AM knew or strongly suspected that guns were going to be a part of the May 6th mission. Hence the real reason AM responded so strongly with his F-off comment to DM when asking who DM should steal the truck from, the a-hole or the nice guy. I think MM overhead talk of guns as well. MM was dreadfully worried about MS not returning home that night and went so far as to say she thought MS might have been hurt or killed, which causes me to think she had more than just female instincts about just how risky and dangerous DM and MS's mission could be. Of course AM reassured MM that it wasn't the first time and wouldn't be the last. Sounds like AM was expecting or at least suspecting that there was more to DM and MS's mission that night. He certainly didn't seem too alarmed. Things indeed escalated that terrible, terrible night, just as DM had been preparing and perhaps testing AM about when discussing his plans for missions that would soon get much more dangerous. DM had no intention of ever having to sleep under the Gardiner Expressway after all. DM had big plans for the future that included his right-hand man, MS, and was counting on the others in his circle of crime to come on board in the near future. DM knew the risks and so did MS. They planned everything together and acted together willingly on the night TB was killed and worked together to cover their heinous crime. DM and MS will likely be sleeping in a jail cell for many, many years but at least they won't be homeless or hungry.

All MOO.

 

[Tealgrove]

I just have to say this....

MB's son was a thief and a hardcore drug dealer. He didn't just deal weed. He did not have a job, although he "played" at running the company business.

When that trailer showed up in MB's driveway, there is no doubt in my mind that she knew it wasn't good and was going to be tied to one of his nefarious missions. I don't think, that she would have suspected that he had murdered someone. I will give her that.

I wholeheartedly believe that MB's brother, had more than one discussion with her regarding her "sick and twisted prick" of a son over the years.

I don't think MB had any delusions as to the path her son had taken.

I believe she knew, upon hearing of his arrest, what was in that trailer. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out.

I don't give MB much slack here at all. As far as I'm concerned, she should be charged and maybe she will. Might be they are just waiting for this trial to wrap up.

This is all my own opinion. I have nothing to back it up, other than my own feelings on MB.

 

[DMB]

I, overall, wanted to believe MH was telling the truth but his story keeps him and AM too clean for me to believe. Yes, why was MH adamant AM told him Dellen wanted the stuff to go to MS? It's hearsay, no? Doesn't this msg come via MS, give me all the drugs and the thing MH has. To me, I don't see a framing aspect. AM says he packed the bag himself. I believe that to be true. And so, you're right, now we know there was more in that bag. If AM and MH discuss what's in the bag, then they know the narcotics (or at least not all of them) aren't in the the toolbox. What is? It protects MH to say the bag of weed is intact already when AM receives it and the two are ignorant as to the contents, preserving the story that narcs are in the toolbox and not a gun.

But where are the lies? Did AM truly not tell this to MH.

We heard parts of testimony from all 3 sides today, it wasn't solely questioning from TD, though that's the part that talked about the pact. We did not hear about the lies that were told and that's the most important part IMO.

I'm pretty sure it was MH that said that line.

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It was MH, while being questioned by the crown MOO

 

[mimimic]

Line 3024/3025 - Molly Hayes - crown Craig Fraser questioning MH
3024 - He has not talked to AM since the events of May 6, 2013
3025 - "We'd come to an agreement relating to this case, he says", "Lies have been said" - Pillay objects #Bosma - April 6, 2016

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...__2QSDhYkGxMU/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=156108166

Should we take this as the "big bear" changing some of his testimony?

 

[DMB]

I just have to say this....

MB's son was a thief and a hardcore drug dealer. He didn't just deal weed. He did not have a job, although he "played" at running the company business.

When that trailer showed up in MB's driveway, there is no doubt in my mind that she knew it wasn't good and was going to be tied to one of his nefarious missions. I don't think, that she would have suspected that he had murdered someone. I will give her that.

I wholeheartedly believe that MB's brother, had more than one discussion with her regarding her "sick and twisted prick" of a son over the years.

I don't think MB had any delusions as to the path her son had taken.

I believe she knew, upon hearing of his arrest, what was in that trailer. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out.

I don't give MB much slack here at all. As far as I'm concerned, she should be charged and maybe she will. Might be they are just waiting for this trial to wrap up.

This is all my own opinion. I have nothing to back it up, other than my own feelings on MB.

It has been said that we will be shocked when we hear how the Crown found out about the letters, thinking (hoping)it may have been through MB who was the only one who knew or CN's mom when she finally went in there to clean that room

 

[brightii]

Line 3024/3025 - Molly Hayes - crown Craig Fraser questioning MH
3024 - He has not talked to AM since the events of May 6, 2013
3025 - "We'd come to an agreement relating to this case, he says", "Lies have been said" - Pillay objects #Bosma - April 6, 2016

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...__2QSDhYkGxMU/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=156108166

I think we have all assumed that AM and MH fell out as friends because of what MH said on the stand about why he no longer is friends with AM, although his brief answer "Lies have been said" was immediately cut off by Pillay. MH never said who told the lies or what the lies were IIRC. MH had no chance to elaborate as far as I know. In any case, I found this article today and it says that the friendship between DM and MH was torn apart because of lies. Hmmm. I wonder if this is something we didn't hear about but was said by MH on the stand or did the reporter writing this piece get it wrong? Could it mean that DM lied to MH about what was in the toolbox . . . or something else?

http://www.am980.ca/2016/04/07/life-long-friend-of-accused-takes-stand-at-tim-bosma-trial/

Just wondering aloud . . .

All MOO.

 

[brightii]

Yes, very possibly and no one is disagreeing that there could be two guns BUT the point is, the jury can't assume there are two guns. Only evidence of one gun can be considered.

BD testified about two guns and therefore the jury can consider it as direct evidence in my opinion.

All MOO.

 

[Typhoo1961]

CN's mom when she finally went in there to clean that room

Why would CN's mom clean her room. CN was an adult and old enough to clean it herself.

One thing I did notice in CN's room was that the trashcan was empty in the midst of that mess.

 

[ILoveDateline]

I think we have all assumed that AM and MH fell out as friends because of what MH said on the stand about why he no longer is friends with AM, although his brief answer "Lies have been said" was immediately cut off by Pillay. MH never said who told the lies or what the lies were IIRC. MH had no chance to elaborate as far as I know. In any case, I found this article today and it says that the friendship between DM and MH was torn apart because of lies. Hmmm. I wonder if this is something we didn't hear about but was said by MH on the stand or did the reporter writing this piece get it wrong? Could it mean that DM lied to MH about what was in the toolbox . . . or something else?

http://www.am980.ca/2016/04/07/life-long-friend-of-accused-takes-stand-at-tim-bosma-trial/

Just wondering aloud . . .

All MOO.

Hmm, it does imply DM told the lies but I think that report has it wrong. I got the distinct impression that the lies that were told were between MH and AM. Or at the very least whatever or whomever told the lies, affected that friendship.

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[canadiangirl]

It has been said that we will be shocked when we hear how the Crown found out about the letters, thinking (hoping)it may have been through MB who was the only one who knew or CN's mom when she finally went in there to clean that room

Who said this? Interesting... I thought they were found in CN bedroom