Verdict: GUILTY for both Millard and Smich of 1st degree murder

[littlesauce]

Now we go back to waiting and to me jumping when I get a twitter alert! :waiting:

One of AC's tweets this morning read as though they were headed in to find out the verdict. Was I ever disappointed when I realized it was just about the MH testimony

 

[DeepWoodsOff]

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 4m4 minutes ago
May 10 texts between Hagerman and Millard. Hagerman texts asking if — "haha"— the toolbox is "full of guns."

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 4m4 minutes ago
Hagerman said he was just trying to "lighten the moment" by joking about guns.

Lisa Hepfner ‏@HefCHCHNews 4m4 minutes ago
"ha ha full of guns," Sachak brought up the joke Hagerman made to Millard in a text. Joke wasn't based on anything, he told court.

Lisa Hepfner ‏@HefCHCHNews 3m3 minutes ago
It was hours later that Millard responded "2." Hagerman says he thought Millard was furthering his joke about the guns. #Bosma

BBM This jumped out at me, since reading the article about what the jury didn't hear. They were only shown the one gun. It was indicated in that article that the one photo actually had 2 guns in it but one was cropped out. Since those articles, there has been discussion about whether both had a gun with them when they went for the test drive. Interesting to now reconsider Hagerman's testimony and the response from DM of simply "2." I recall at the time it was discussed whether this meant 2 guns in the toolbox or, since it was hours later, he meant he would "be there in 2 minutes." As a direct response to the text from Hagerman...DM truly could have meant there were 2 guns in the box. MOO

 

[E-coaster]

molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes 7m7 minutes ago
Hagerman agrees he knew there was something going on that led Millard to be giving him this toolbox. Troubled him. #Bosma

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 7m7 minutes ago
Hagerman was troubled by taking the toolbox at 4 a.m.. #Bosma

Lisa Hepfner ‏@HefCHCHNews 6m6 minutes ago
Sachak also quizzed Hagerman on his evidence that the toolbox weighed 4-5 pounds. Is he sure it wasn't more like 3lbs? He said it felt light

molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes 6m6 minutes ago
Millard having important meetings around that time, so thought maybe he wanted to get the drugs out of the house in case mtgs there. #Bosma

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 6m6 minutes ago
Hagerman made multiple statements to police. Said toolbox weighed 4-5 pounds for the first time while on the stand, suggests Sachak.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 4m4 minutes ago
May 10 texts between Hagerman and Millard. Hagerman texts asking if — "haha"— the toolbox is "full of guns."

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 4m4 minutes ago
Hagerman said he was just trying to "lighten the moment" by joking about guns.

Lisa Hepfner ‏@HefCHCHNews 4m4 minutes ago
"ha ha full of guns," Sachak brought up the joke Hagerman made to Millard in a text. Joke wasn't based on anything, he told court.

Lisa Hepfner ‏@HefCHCHNews 3m3 minutes ago
It was hours later that Millard responded "2." Hagerman says he thought Millard was furthering his joke about the guns. #Bosma

molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes 3m3 minutes ago
Hagerman gave multiple statements to police. #Bosma

Lisa Hepfner ‏@HefCHCHNews 2m2 minutes ago
The backpack smelled distinctly of marijuana, Hagerman testified. He and Michalski dropped it with toolbox in stairwell in Oakville

Kind of makes you wonder if the jury thinks there may have been more than one gun in the toolbox.
One gun + 2 car thieves makes reasonable doubt about who pulled the trigger. Two guns + 2 car thieves makes both look equally guilty.
Not sure which lawyer said in closing arguments about "the evidence being buried", that there is more buried in the woods than just 1 gun.

 

[andreww]

Kind of makes you wonder if the jury thinks there may have been more than one gun in the toolbox.
One gun + 2 car thieves makes reasonable doubt about who pulled the trigger. Two guns + 2 car thieves makes both look equally guilty.
Not sure which lawyer said in closing arguments about "the evidence being buried", that there is more buried in the woods than just 1 gun.

I've always thought that there was a strong possibility that there were two guns in the toolbox. That would explain Smich's amnesia about where he buried the toolbox. I never was comfortable with the idea that Smich would go on this mission unarmed either, especially if he actually owned a gun.

 

[ILoveDateline]

Oh, here are my thoughts re: Hagerman's testimony as we heard it today. My thoughts always seem to make sense to me but, yet, get disproved time and again by these people.

#1 I don't recall hearing about the "lies that were told" today!

I don't know why MH says that AM was given the backpack and never looked inside when AM says he packed the bag himself. Was it a case of broken telephone, a misunderstanding? MH says that he hadn't been in touch with DM for a while and had just learned at the park on the 11th that AM was living at DMs house. If this is true, could he just have assumed that AM was given the backpack, just as he was given the toolbox. Or was that a careful statement to make his story more plausible, i.e. they were both given items and were unaware of the contents. I think this is where the pact comes in to play. MH says the pact was to get rid of the items asap. They did that so why the controversy about he "lies that were told"? I think the pact goes one step further and did include ensuring MS got the items (whether MS asked for them or DM instructed them to do it, I don't know and it doesn't matter to me) and to protect themselves by saying they never opened the backpack or toolbox. I think the pact was required because MH wanted zip to do with any of this and AM had to convince him by way of a pact that all they were going to do is drop the stuff to MS and it would be over. I think AM wanted to help out more but they had a pact not to get involved. Yet, AM is then arrested for murder and MH is the one to call crime stoppers to give up MS, so more happened then what was included in the pact and, maybe, that's why they no longer talk.

If this was the pact (to say they were given items, were unaware of the contents and to get rid of them immediately), then MH stuck to it and never wavered even though, he lied about it. Its all part of covering their own behinds. AM was the one to break the pact. Just me thinking out loud. All MOO.

 

[Nickandnora]

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 52s52 seconds ago
In the courtroom right now, Smich is turned to face the witness box, although nobody's actually there. Millard is looking around.


Maybe trying to figure out where the voices are come from

Thanks CJ Princess, really needed a good laugh. I have been reading about
the poor toddler that got snatched by the alligator at Disney resort, so horrific
iI feel so sorry for the parents

 

[MsSherlock]

Thanks CJ Princess, really needed a good laugh. I have been reading about
the poor toddler that got snatched by the alligator at Disney resort, so horrific
iI feel so sorry for the parents

At least with alligators it doesn't take 3 years to get them to trial, nor do you need to listen to their lawyers whine and cry for 4 months. Terrible tragedy- my heart goes out to the little toddlers family. MOO

 

[Tilly23]

I've always thought that there was a strong possibility that there were two guns in the toolbox. That would explain Smich's amnesia about where he buried the toolbox. I never was comfortable with the idea that Smich would go on this mission unarmed either, especially if he actually owned a gun.

Didn't they have the toolbox in the courtroom as an exhibit? I don't think MS buried the toolbox.

MOO

 

[rmoeller]

Most likely the stress they're under. Sitting for 10 hours a day talking about Tim's murder would be tough on the mind and body. I wish posters would quit poking fun at/bashing the jurors.

ing

Must have splurged on too much chocolate for dessert last night? (Or wine?)

 

[MsSherlock]

Most likely the stress they're under. Sitting for 10 hours a day talking about Tim's murder would be tough on the mind and body. I wish posters would quit poking fun at/bashing the jurors.

ing

I can't imagine. My thanks to every one of their dedication- it's probably going to be the hardest thing they've ever done. To be plucked away from a normal life and dropped into this sordid mess is hard to imagine. MOO

 

[Typhoo1961]

Didn't they have the toolbox in the courtroom as an exhibit? I don't think MS buried the toolbox.

MOO

The toolbox was never buried. It has been in the courtroom as an exhibit.

 

[Typhoo1961]

I've always thought that there was a strong possibility that there were two guns in the toolbox. That would explain Smich's amnesia about where he buried the toolbox. I never was comfortable with the idea that Smich would go on this mission unarmed either, especially if he actually owned a gun.

MS never buried the toolbox. It has been in court as an exhibit.

 

[DMB]

Oh, here are my thoughts re: Hagerman's testimony as we heard it today. My thoughts always seem to make sense to me but, yet, get disproved time and again by these people.

#1 I don't recall hearing about the "lies that were told" today!

I don't know why MH says that AM was given the backpack and never looked inside when AM says he packed the bag himself. Was it a case of broken telephone, a misunderstanding? MH says that he hadn't been in touch with DM for a while and had just learned at the park on the 11th that AM was living at DMs house. If this is true, could he just have assumed that AM was given the backpack, just as he was given the toolbox. Or was that a careful statement to make his story more plausible, i.e. they were both given items and were unaware of the contents. I think this is where the pact comes in to play. MH says the pact was to get rid of the items asap. They did that so why the controversy about he "lies that were told"? I think the pact goes one step further and did include ensuring MS got the items (whether MS asked for them or DM instructed them to do it, I don't know and it doesn't matter to me) and to protect themselves by saying they never opened the backpack or toolbox. I think the pact was required because MH wanted zip to do with any of this and AM had to convince him by way of a pact that all they were going to do is drop the stuff to MS and it would be over. I think AM wanted to help out more but they had a pact not to get involved. Yet, AM is then arrested for murder and MH is the one to call crime stoppers to give up MS, so more happened then what was included in the pact and, maybe, that's why they no longer talk.

If this was the pact (to say they were given items, were unaware of the contents and to get rid of them immediately), then MH stuck to it and never wavered even though, he lied about it. Its all part of covering their own behinds. AM was the one to break the pact. Just me thinking out loud. All MOO.

Thinking out loud back at you. The testimonies from both AM & MH are both basically the same in that they each had something that belonged to DM and that they both wanted to get rid of. The part that is confusing and difficult to understand is why would MH be adamant about AM saying that "Dellen had given him something and he knew that he had given him something as well" and "Dellen would've wanted the stuff to go to Mark" as opposed to agreeing that MS had asked for it. This implies that AM knew what he had and it wasn't drugs. If AM had packed up the back pack like he testified to he knew what was in it and there was a lot more then just pot, so how much drugs could be in the toolbox which MH said was small, more like a tackle box that was worth all this extra effort on his part. Wouldn't you just say hey, we have a situation, dump what Dellen gave you?????

 

[brightii]

molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes 21s21 seconds ago
The juror sent in a note apologizing for the interruption. He had a migraine and was given a shot and now feels much better. #Bosma

Sending a note of apology to the court is a classy gesture by the juror with the migraine. It surely wasn't necessary, but it shows character in my opinion. I have a good feeling about this jury and trust that they each have a very strong character and a lot of combined wisdom among them. Keeping the jurors in my thoughts and prayers this evening as they continue their deliberations.

All MOO.

 

[Crimeinthe6ix]

I can't imagine. My thanks to every one of their dedication- it's probably going to be the hardest thing they've ever done. To be plucked away from a normal life and dropped into this sordid mess is hard to imagine. MOO

Exactly. Couldn't say it better myself. I could never imagine being in their situation. For me I would find it personally and financially very stressful.

 

[DMB]

I've always thought that there was a strong possibility that there were two guns in the toolbox. That would explain Smich's amnesia about where he buried the toolbox. I never was comfortable with the idea that Smich would go on this mission unarmed either, especially if he actually owned a gun.

However the Judge does not agree with you on the two gun theory and I believe the jury was directed as such. IMO

 

[Bellers]

Adam Carter was asked about the shiv Millard was reported to have had by CHCH. I found his reply interesting:

Adam Carter ‏@AdamCarterCBC
I have not been able to corroborate that report, or verify that it's true. Several sources have told me it isn't.

 

[Kamille]

Adrian Humphreys ‏@AD_Humphreys 3m3 minutes ago
While we wait for verdict in #Bosma case, take our virtual tour of the sites the jury was NOT allowed to go on:

Tracing Tim Bosma’s sad end from when he left home to the discovery of DNA on the incinerator

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/t...me-to-the-discovery-of-dna-on-the-incinerator

 

[mozzagirl]

I need to go get a few things done but should we all meet back here around 8:15 tonight for the jury's nightly question? :thinking:

 

[Kamille]

However the Judge does not agree with you on the two gun theory and I believe the jury was directed as such. IMO

I think it's more a matter of both defense teams have successfully argued out any evidence of two guns. Doesn't mean that it isn't a possibility. MS himself indicated that there were "multiple" guns between them. That's more than two IMO.

MOO