Verdict Suggests Juries are Tired of Theoretical Justice & Circumstancial Evidence

[liltexans]

ITA! The only theories without any evidence came from the defense and the jurors were the ones who bought the defense's theories.

I am sick of hearing people trying to shut others down by saying the jurors need to be respected simply because they sat in the courtroom. Or throw out the constitution as another way to shut down opinions, when it's my belief that the defense made a mockery of both the justice system and the constitution. And the jurors bought into it all, without evidence.

JMHO

Thank you for posting this! I'm afraid to post my true opinions anymore since everyone is so sensitive and jumps down my throat if I deign to point out what the jury did wrong. I appreciate your honesty.

 

[Chewy]

I am getting confused, lol.

Didn't you state that the jury was correct in the decision to acquit? Then you stated you don't believe it was an accidental drowning and that Casey drugged her so she could party?

And then say that it was because there wasn't the evidence for the death penalty?

If I misunderstood I apologize but the jurors could have completely dismissed the first degree murder charges and convicted her on even the least charge.
I believe that is where the outrage is, she should never have been acquitted of ALL charges. The evidence was there but the jurors dismissed it all in favor of the defense theories.

JMHO

I think that the jury had no choice to acquit on the more serious charges. But I do think they should have given her aggravated child abuse. (I got confused as to the ability to use that if it's not premeditated but I see it would have worked)

When I saw the verdict I was like "Ok they can't give her premeditated, got that, but my jaw hit the floor when they let her off on the aggravated child abuse. Then I looked it up and realized they may have interpreted that as needing to be premeditated as well.

I do agree that it doesn't seem that she wanted to be rid of Caylee, I think she made a stupid mistake.

However, the gravity of that mistake is unbelievable IMO. You don't drug a child and go out and party. Especially if you have parents willing to babysit right at home.

I have met some negligent mothers in my life and they make my skin crawl. They are selfish and abusive in their disregard for their child. If Casey didn't have Cindy and George to help her, she would be like one of those mothers who drag around filthy children who are not cared for properly.

 

[Baznme]

To be clear I've pretty much thought this was not murder all along.

An accident can look different. An accident where she fell in the pool and drowned is one kind of accident. I don't believe that happened.

An accident where she drugged her kid and left her in the trunk because she wanted to go out and party is another kind all together.


I never believe she deliberately killed her because she didn't need to go through all of this to kill or get rid of her child. There's a swimming pool sitting in the back yard. She could have simply drowned the baby in the pool and pretended it was an accident if she wanted to get away with it.

The covering it up to look like an accident is to me evidence that she drugged Caylee with cholorform. She maybe got the idea of using chloroform from her friends myspace post. Then thought, hey I can use that on her? Didn't know what she was doing and killed her.

Then panics and tries to make it look like a kidnapping. To me it's pretty clear that this is what happened. Who makes an accident look like a murder? Someone who knows if they get ahold of the body will see that foul play of a serious level was involved. If she drowned she wouldn't have needed to do any of this. Only if she had bound Caylee and used drugs on her. She couldn't have known it wasn't traceable.

All the premeditated stuff doesn't add up, nor does sticking duct tape across a kids face. I have never understood why so many people are saying with certainty that this is what happened because IMO there's no way she would have thought she could get away with it.

The pool as a death weapon is easier to hide than duct tape???

Do I think Casey is guilty and ought to be in jail, YES. Am I disappointed in the verdict. YES.

But many of you on here are doing the same thing you accuse the jury of getting wrong. It's all about theories and feelings and myths about what happened.

To me it's crystal clear what happened. All the other theories are made up for the sake of gossip and discussion.

Chewy, I think we're on the same page. It's been what, 4 days since the verdict came back? Maybe if the jury had waited a few more days, they could have deduced a more reasonable verdict.

One thing I disagree with you on though is other posters theories. They aren't made up for the sake of gossip and discussion. They're just trying to make sense of things.

 

[Annie]

You know, I don't buy that argument. There were other lesser included offenses besides murder. How about 2nd degree murder, or manslaughter? The more I hear from this jury, the more I think that they did not understand the instructions properly. I don't think they realized they could have gone w/the lesser included offenses in each category. I read an interview (I think it was from juror #2) and he made is seem that after that had considered 1st degree murder and rejected it, that they just jumped on right to the next charge of aggravated child abuse. What about 2nd degree murder, or 3rd degree murder? Did they even take a vote on either of those offenses? I don't think this jury knew what they were doing and I think the way they were instructed was probably confusing. The judge and attorneys have to realize that these people are not in a courtroom all the time like they are, and they really need everything explained in detail to them. I wish if any more of them are interviewed, that they are asked if they even considered lesser included offenses.

And you know, I am so sick and tired about some saying she was overcharged. I think the defense team and casey have some responsibility in that as well. The state worked w/what they had, and especially once the remains were found, they felt that the duct tape on the skull warranted the DP. What should casey have been charged with in this case? Jaywalking?! If it was really an "accident" like casey and her defense team have claimed, then why not on day 31 did casey not tell this to LE? All this time, money, energy, resources, and manpower could have been saved. I think the system was used and abused in this case and I truly hope that all the lawyers and judges in central Florida and beyond are aware of the tactics that JB uses in order to win cases. He won't be able to get away w/it a second time.

What I am afraid of is that every defense lawyer will try to give more outlandish theories in opening statements, hoping there is a jury who doesn't know the difference in opening statements and evidence. BBM

 

[Chewy]

Chewy, I think we're on the same page. It's been what, 4 days since the verdict came back? Maybe if the jury had waited a few more days, they could have deduced a more reasonable verdict.

One thing I disagree with you on though is other posters theories. They aren't made up for the sake of gossip and discussion. They're just trying to make sense of things.

I didn't mean everyone but some of the ideas that she put duct tape across Caylee's face to kill her just doesn't make any sense to me at all. Especially when you are speculating with evidence that has a skull and duct tape. She wasn't found with duct tape on her face, she was so decomposed. So how in the world are people coming up with that as the cause of death.

 

[annalia]

I think that the jury had no choice to acquit on the more serious charges. But I do think they should have given her aggravated child abuse. (I got confused as to the ability to use that if it's not premeditated but I see it would have worked)

When I saw the verdict I was like "Ok they can't give her premeditated, got that, but my jaw hit the floor when they let her off on the aggravated child abuse. Then I looked it up and realized they may have interpreted that as needing to be premeditated as well.

I do agree that it doesn't seem that she wanted to be rid of Caylee, I think she made a stupid mistake.

However, the gravity of that mistake is unbelievable IMO. You don't drug a child and go out and party. Especially if you have parents willing to babysit right at home.

I have met some negligent mothers in my life and they make my skin crawl. They are selfish and abusive in their disregard for their child. If Casey didn't have Cindy and George to help her, she would be like one of those mothers who drag around filthy children who are not cared for properly.

Thanks for clarifying. So you don't agree that she should have been cleared of all charges and set free?

I agree that even if the evidence was not enough to her to receive the DP, the evidence was surely enough for it to be determined that it was she who was responsible and should have never been acquitted of all charges.

JMHO

 

[annalia]

Even IF it WAS an accident, the definition is clear.


OR willfully and unlawfully caging a child; OR Knowingly or willfully abusing a child and in so doing causing great bodily harm, permanent disability, or permanent disfigurement to the child.

If it resulted in the death of a child, most certainly leaves the aggravator as the one responsible.......unintended death or not.

I agree.

 

[Baznme]

And what evidence shows that it was an accident? Besides the fact that JB used that in his opening statement? I guess from now on if any child ever goes missing again, and if they have ever swam in a pool anytime in their entire life, that LE should just immediately stop looking for them and just assume it was a horrible accidental drowning. Even if the child's parent/caregiver claims the child was kidnapped. Even if the child is found thrown away in a swamp, completely skeletonized, in several trash bags and a laundry bag, with 3 pieces of duct tape over the lower half of their skull, we should just assume that child had accidentally drowned in a horrific accident that snowballed out of control and that the parent/caregiver simply just panicked. Alrighty then!

I think sometimes it gets confusing as to what constitutes an "accident" in the death of a child. If you're walking down the street with a child and the child falls and hits his/her head on the sidewalk severely to cause death, that's an accidental death. It was fully unanticipated and out of your complete control. If you put your child in the trunk of a car and influence his/her conscientious via means of chloroform leaving the child there, unattended and defenseless, that's illegal, anticipated and completely within your control leaving the child culpable to the dangers of being unsupervised and under the influence of a drug. That's no accident.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

The worst part is, and the most telling part about this jury is, imo, that not ONLY did they disregard forensic evidence from brilliant experts like Dr. Vass and Dr. G. (chloroform too confusing, etc) BUT that they INSTEAD believed the completely unsubstantiated and unlikely fantasy stories of JB. You can't fix stupidity imo. The SA did everything they could but if people want to believe emotion over science and common sense what can you do? Death qualified? What a joke.

 

[tink92]

To be clear I've pretty much thought this was not murder all along.

An accident can look different. An accident where she fell in the pool and drowned is one kind of accident. I don't believe that happened.

An accident where she drugged her kid and left her in the trunk because she wanted to go out and party is another kind all together.


I never believe she deliberately killed her because she didn't need to go through all of this to kill or get rid of her child. There's a swimming pool sitting in the back yard. She could have simply drowned the baby in the pool and pretended it was an accident if she wanted to get away with it.

The covering it up to look like an accident is to me evidence that she drugged Caylee with cholorform. She maybe got the idea of using chloroform from her friends myspace post. Then thought, hey I can use that on her? Didn't know what she was doing and killed her.

Then panics and tries to make it look like a kidnapping. To me it's pretty clear that this is what happened. Who makes an accident look like a murder? Someone who knows if they get ahold of the body will see that foul play of a serious level was involved. If she drowned she wouldn't have needed to do any of this. Only if she had bound Caylee and used drugs on her. She couldn't have known it wasn't traceable.

All the premeditated stuff doesn't add up, nor does sticking duct tape across a kids face. I have never understood why so many people are saying with certainty that this is what happened because IMO there's no way she would have thought she could get away with it.

The pool as a death weapon is easier to hide than duct tape???

Do I think Casey is guilty and ought to be in jail, YES. Am I disappointed in the verdict. YES.

But many of you on here are doing the same thing you accuse the jury of getting wrong. It's all about theories and feelings and myths about what happened.

To me it's crystal clear what happened. All the other theories are made up for the sake of gossip and discussion.

This is the same theory that I believed myself until recently. Even down to she could have just drowned caylee and called it an accident if she wanted rid of her.

BUT...I changed my mind during the trial. I think she did plan to kill caylee...because i can honestly think of no other possible explanation for her partying IMMEDIATLY after the death.

If ashe really did have ANY love for Caylee at all..she would have spend SOME time grieving...but she spent nada!...She went immediatly from the death to blockbuster!!!...Spent the night having sex and the following days partying..relaxing..chatting..having more sex and even entering hot body contests.

We have established she is not crazy!...So what possible conclusion does this bring us to?

She WANTED caylee to die...she was HAPPY that she died.

It is the ONLY explanation...and believe me I wanted tobelieve it was an accident...but I can not get my head around her pure joy during the hours after caylees death.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

What I am afraid of is that every defense lawyer will try to give more outlandish theories in opening statements, hoping there is a jury who doesn't know the difference in opening statements and evidence. BBM

Why bother with constructing a case and bringing in experts? Defense lawyers should be taking acting classes to beef up on the theatrics and emotional appeal. That's where our idiocracy is headed imo.

 

[Baznme]

I don't think the JURY knew that.

 

[songline]

IMO this is what was clear to me.

--- To me it was clear that The State threw this case. WHY?---Think about it.
--- The real story is so much more sinister then we know.
--- Was the attorney for the state threatened? another thing we will never know.

--- It also made it real clear AGAIN that we do have a legal system but we do not have justice.

--- It also made it clear that this case will give much to anyone who operates illegally.


The jurors did what they could with a foggy case.

 

[Puzzler]

I truly believe Chewy has the right explanation of what happened.

My hypothesis is that Casey wanted her to be found with the duct tape over her mouth and the explanation would be the nanny kidnapped and killer her.

If you read Casey's jailhouse letters, she states that if Caylee is never found, she is going to be put away for eternity.

Felony murder, felony murder, felony murder.

Okay, please explain to me why anyone would need to duct tape a toddler's face to kidnap her? I have never understood why people assume duct tape = kidnapping in the case of a 2 yr old! And duct tape *has* been used to smother people to death, including children. (I probably read too much true crime. )

Also, no one gets "put away for eternity" because their child is not found. KC said something similar to Lee, as I recall. To me, that's just consciousness of guilt talking.

 

[Chewy]

This is the same theory that I believed myself until recently. Even down to she could have just drowned caylee and called it an accident if she wanted rid of her.

BUT...I changed my mind during the trial. I think she did plan to kill caylee...because i can honestly think of no other possible explanation for her partying IMMEDIATLY after the death.

If ashe really did have ANY love for Caylee at all..she would have spend SOME time grieving...but she spent nada!...She went immediatly from the death to blockbuster!!!...Spent the night having sex and the following days partying..relaxing..chatting..having more sex and even entering hot body contests.

We have established she is not crazy!...So what possible conclusion does this bring us to?

She WANTED caylee to die...she was HAPPY that she died.

It is the ONLY explanation...and believe me I wanted tobelieve it was an accident...but I can not get my head around her pure joy during the hours after caylees death.

I have a friend who has four children. She's gone through so many boyfriends since her divorce from her ex. She's a total "*advertiser censored*" and a horrible mother. I've confronted her many times on it.

She's managed to cobble together a life in nursing, she owns her own home. But she doesn't care about her children at all. When I see her with them it's as if she has no bond, no care no love. She only cares about herself and her life.

I remember one time I went to visit her and I walked through this enormous house where each kid had their own room. Except none of the kids had a "room." Instead they had a mattress thrown on the floor and crap everywhere.

In the end, I went into her bedroom and she had expensive clothes everywhere and a curio with newly purchased LLadros and other things like that that she had bought herself as presents.

Meanwhile the kids lived like savages.

I was so angry I didn't speak to her for years. Then she got married again and asked me to come. When I came down I found the same thing.

I thought later that maybe she was doing drugs, I think Casey was doing drugs or at least alcohol, and I do think she just didn't care at all about Caylee.

I've just seen it many times in my life. So her partying shows that she had no sense of responsibility or mothering for her child. And she took advantage of her parents.

The reason she didn't mourn her child is she honestly didn't care about her. God forbid if one of my friend's kids died, I doubt she be sitting in misery. She'd be out doing drugs and the same kinds of things Casey did.

Sad but true.

 

[Chewy]

Okay, please explain to me why anyone would need to duct tape a toddler's face to kidnap her? I have never understood why people assume duct tape = kidnapping in the case of a 2 yr old! And duct tape *has* been used to smother people to death, including children. (I probably read too much true crime. )

Also, no one gets "put away for eternity" because their child is not found. KC said something similar to Lee, as I recall. To me, that's just consciousness of guilt talking.

If I wanted to stage something to look like a kidnapping I'd put duct tape across the person's mouth. I can't see why you wouldn't get that would be something a person who wanted to stage it like a kidnapping would do?

 

[tink92]

I have a friend who has four children. She's gone through so many boyfriends since her divorce from her ex. She's a total "*advertiser censored*" and a horrible mother. I've confronted her many times on it.

She's managed to cobble together a life in nursing, she owns her own home. But she doesn't care about her children at all. When I see her with them it's as if she has no bond, no care no love. She only cares about herself and her life.

I remember one time I went to visit her and I walked through this enormous house where each kid had their own room. Except none of the kids had a "room." Instead they had a mattress thrown on the floor and crap everywhere.

In the end, I went into her bedroom and she had expensive clothes everywhere and a curio with newly purchased LLadros and other things like that that she had bought herself as presents.

Meanwhile the kids lived like savages.

I was so angry I didn't speak to her for years. Then she got married again and asked me to come. When I came down I found the same thing.

I thought later that maybe she was doing drugs, I think Casey was doing drugs or at least alcohol, and I do think she just didn't care at all about Caylee.

I've just seen it many times in my life. So her partying shows that she had no sense of responsibility or mothering for her child. And she took advantage of her parents.

The reason she didn't mourn her child is she honestly didn't care about her. God forbid if one of my friend's kids died, I doubt she be sitting in misery. She'd be out doing drugs and the same kinds of things Casey did.

Sad but true.

I have pondered this too..its hard to know what is more unthinkable...a mother murdering her child in cold blood OR a mother not caring one jot in fact being pleased that she accidently killed her child whilst drugging her.

I think either senario is possible here...but both should mean LWOP.

 

[grandmaj]

About 35 years ago I was friends with several members of a family. I had known them for over 10 years before we all got married. All great parents, settled into a life of raising kids, hardworking husbands, wives that were very involved in the schools and the care of their children. There were a group of us young parents all just starting out.

It was 4th of July weekend. A party at the home where there was a in ground pool. There were many people in the pool, at a BBQ and unfortunately the 3 year old daughter of this friend got stuck under a pool float and drowned. She knew how to swim and swam every day.

Now she was noticed to be missing within minutes, 30 people searched high and low in the house, in the pool, in the yard, in the streets and neighbor's yards. It wasn't until they pulled that float out of the pool that they found her.

What did they do with her lifeless body? They picked her up, did CPR to attempt to revive her, while someone dialed 911. But it was too late. She died.

The mother was admitted to the hospital in terrible shape, the father totally broken and couldn't work for a long time in his own business. They had such horrible grief and were in so much pain that they eventually divorced. They could not get past their own personal grief or despair enough to maintain their marriage. They were not out in the bars, they were not in hot body contests, they were not getting tattoos, they were not lying to police about where this child was. They could hardly lift their heads off of the pillow after sleepless nights for months and months and months.

They didn't lie to the police they didn't dump her body in a bag in the swamp. NO they did what anyone would do given an accidental drowning they dialed 911 and frantically tried to save their daughter's life. And when she couldn't be saved they did the next most difficult thing in the world they held a funeral for their daughter and she was buried with dignity.

There were no charges against these parents. Their actions, their demeanor, their statements to the police all proved it was a horrible accidental drowning. There was no question about that.

Accidental drowning covered up to look like a murder? NO. That just doesn't happen.

 

[bayouland]

I have been all over the place with my theories.

1. My first was that it was cold, premeditated murder.
2. My second was that it was a chloroform accident and coverup.
3. My third was that it was murder and GA caught FCA trying to bury Caylee in the yard and assisted with the coverup.

I have been all over the place but if I were a juror there would have been a mistrial. I am 100% certain that I would not have let off. I may have negotiated to a lesser degree than first but she would not have walked. Why? A child is dead and she is culpable.

Everyone loves HHJP and I thought I did too. Then I sat back and realized that he severely rushed the jury selction process, the trial, and gave the jury the impression (by working on a Holiday) to hurry up and get this done. He also gave way too much leeway to the defenses "theory" because of his fear of a mistrial.

JMO....

 

[Italy]

My hypothesis is that:

Casey killed her baby w/ chloroform - FELONY MURDER

Casey possible wanted it to look like a kidnapping and based on the many TV shows and movies that show victims w/ duct tape on their mouths - it was a coverup/ruse that, in her mind, would point to the nanny. COVERUP - FELONY MURDER (Jeff Ashton postulated accident resulting in death)

What was proved (by the evidence presented during testimony) is that it was a homicide and Casey was the last person w/ a living Caylee; Casey lied to cover up discovery of the crime. Casey showed complete indifference to her death.

I am vehemently opposed to the death penalty, but as a juror that would not have been my job to decide. I would have found her guilty of Felony Murder and recommended a sentence of Life in prison.

I appreciate your comments and arguments - they are very, very helpful in assessing this sad case.