Verdict Watch Thread Saturday July 13

[missmazzy]

I have no problem with him saying whatever he thinks is right. But why continue to work for the State if he felt that strongly? Why not resign and go public? I have no respect for him at all.

IMO

I don't know the answer to that. However, I don't have to respect him to know that he did the right thing. IMO.

 

[sickofitAll]

I saw quite a few polls running 71-90% for a NG verdict.

That is really bad news...He's done...

 

[Chris_Texas]

I totally agree that if it were close enough to his face, the slide itself or even the rear sights could have caused the laceration. That, however, is not the assertion that's being made. The conclusion has been that the weapon was responsible for the nose injury as a whole (bloody and swollen), which you seem to agree would necessitate him pretty much pistol-whipping himself in the face.

Basically. I suppose it COULD happen but it's a stretch. And in any case it really doesn't matter how any one injury happened. In my opinion, the question is whether or not Zimmerman's story -- the complete story in all it's forms -- is plausible and consistent.

Was he punched in the face many dozens of times? In my opinion, no. I doubt he was struck in the face more than once, and that a glancing blow. Was his head slammed into concrete dozens of times as he claimed? In my opinion, no. I doubt his head was slammed into anything by TM. Did the fight begin, as Zimmerman claimed, at the T? In my opinion, it absolutely did not. And if it did it gives the lie to other statements made by Zimmerman. Not that there is a shortage of these.

 

[Zuri]

Someone mentioned yesterday...and to be honest, I never even considered it...that the entire incident could have been premeditated. She wrote it out as if it was scripted...and it made sense. Shocked me because I never even thought of that.

I have a hard time believing this was premeditated. I think the whole thing was based on preconceived notions based on life experiences. JMV

 

[iluvmua]

Did the State decide to use the Aggravated Assault with child abuse or some such thing because they knew that would be objected to and therefore not considered? I was very confused by that. Could someone help me understand? TIA

IIRC, they wanted to add the charge of felony child abuse

Which is totally wrong IMO

Thank God the judge threw it out.

JMO

 

[JudyBolton]

If I were on this jury and spent this time away from my "life" - then when it was all over I heard ALL of the evidence that was withheld, the actions of State in hiding evidence from the defense, I would be furious. No matter the outcome - they are making sacrifices to be on the jury and uphold our justice system. The state in *SO* many ways is making a mockery of the same system - imo/jmo/moo

 

[Overuled]

Did anyone else come into this thinking George was guilty?

Ans what changed your mind?

I thought he was guilty until may of last year when the truth finally started coming out. IMO

Hello all- I wondered about this case from the beginning and stayed in the middle- I did my own investigation and relied on the testimony and sorted evidence before reaching my own conclusion. Surely this is a clear cut self defense case, but there are hyped up overtones and much of the evidence was left out.

Evidence that was left out could have helped people to realize both sides in a different light. Still up to the jury to decide.

Hoping for peace on both sides. jmo

 

[Mahouston69]

But you do know because the weapon did not fail to cycle. You seem to ignore that. If the gun was being flailed around, it would not have cycled. Is it possible he nicked himself with the slide? Absolutely. Is it possible that the force of the recoil broke his nose and made him slam his head into the ground? Not unless Newtonian physics doesn't apply anymore.

:twocents:

I'm not forgetting.
I didn't say it flipped in circles. The angle could have been turned and unstable.
We disagree on both force and physics.

 

[m00c0w]

Basically. I suppose it COULD happen but it's a stretch. And in any case it really doesn't matter how any one injury happened. In my opinion, the question is whether or not Zimmerman's story -- the complete story in all it's forms -- is plausible and consistent.

Was he punched in the face many dozens of times? In my opinion, no. I doubt he was struck in the face more than once, and that a glancing blow. Was his head slammed into concrete dozens of times as he claimed? In my opinion, no. I doubt his head was slammed into anything by TM. Did the fight begin, as Zimmerman claimed, at the T? In my opinion, it absolutely did not. And if it did it gives the lie to other statements made by Zimmerman. Not that there is a shortage of these.

Fair enough, and I completely respect your opinion because it makes sense given what we know of the situation.

 

[lisasalinger]

Yes, I thought he was guilty of manslaughter. I also thought that the prosecution would have a very hard time proving it. Not because I knew all the ins and outs of the case, but because of the fact that there was seemingly so much question surrounding the event. I did not follow this case like I normally do with others. I only heard the buzz words in the media: teenager in hoodie gunned down, skittles, wannabe cop, etc.

I bought in to the idea that this over-zealous cop wannabe got out of his car and stalked this kid with malicious intent. On the surface, it sure does look that way.

I decided to not investigate anything about the case, and just watch the trial. At the conclusion of day 3, I was like holy sh#%, he is not guilty.

As soon as I understood what was really happening in their neighborhood, robberies, burglaries, etc and had a better insight in to George's perspective, it made sense to me why Trayvon was suspicious to him. I know this is an enormous point of contention for a lot of people. But we each have lived our own lives and have reasons for being suspicious of what we are suspicious of. Hearing from the neighborhood witnesses, I have better insight in to their community. The prosecution could not deliver one single witness that said that George was a hateful, over-zealous, creepy guy. In fact, the witnesses that they presented said pretty much the opposite.

I've always said and still say that getting out of the car was bad judgement. I wish it never happened. I wish that Trayvon came back to Brandi's house a half hour earlier. I wish that George never went to Target. All the wishing in the world doesn't change the horrible events that happen in our world. I am adamant in my believe that getting out of that car, bad judgement or not, does not make him a stalker with hate in his heart! I think it's entirely plausible that he wanted to just keep an eye on Trayvon to see where he went. There is no evidence whatsoever that he was running around that neighborhood chasing down Trayvon. Some people believe he was. Belief is not enough to convict.

And even though I personally am not a gun supporter for my own reasons, I do understand that per law, people can have them. George obtained his gun legally and has a right to carry it. I can't hold that against him, whether I like it or not. Makes sense to me that it was loaded. Why carry a weapon for safety that is not loaded. Like they said in the Arias trial, what are you going to do - throw it at the person? Most people I know that carry guns have no intention whatsoever of going out with hate in their heart to gun people down. They have it just in case.

Finally, John Good, Captain Carter and the investigating officers were extremely compelling for me.

I could go on, but I think you get my points.

All, IMO

Just to clarify one point... I am sure some will say that RJ testified that George was a creepy guy, but those are Trayvon's words from their phone call. I am referring to living witnesses that actually know George. Prosecution couldn't produce anybody in his life, friend or non-friend, that thought he was bad news. And believe me, I have no doubt they looked for it.

IMO

 

[RANCH]

Sorry I am so confusing, that's why I lurk 10x more than post. I guess what I am wondering is... even if there was recoil on the pistol, weren't there far too many things going on to prevent the gun from ever hitting George's nose?

All I can say is that in my opinion, recoil alone did not cause the handgun to impact GZ's nose and break it. MOO.

 

[marlap]

I saw that too.. I've always wondered how he shot TM, how he was able to get his gun out of his holster so fast.. That walk through doesn't look right to me when he's describing how he shot TM. It's like he stopped TM's arm with is arm, pulled out his gun and shot.. I think TM wasn't leaning that far over him when he got shot. I have always thought that GZ didn't need to shoot that there was a small window like when TM saw the gun, and I believe he did. Also, GZ could have said to TM that he had a gun and would use it if he didn't stop. I'M SO CONFUSED.. LOL

Yes...And in my very strong opinion.GZ already had his gun out.

IMO, GZ tried to play cop and hold TM at gunpoint and maybe even grabbed his arm to try to force TM to wait for LE and that's what led to all of TM's (IMO) repeated calls for help.

Imo, I think when no one came to help, in desperation, TM tried hitting GZ to try to get away and GZ panicked and shot him then, then lied to LE about how everything happened knowing TM could not refute his tale....to try to save himself.

That is my theory of what happened. I wish there were more proof, but I hope GZ gets manslaughter.

It is a fact that GZ followed and harassed TM, and did not choose to follow LE advice to not follow him.

It is a fact that TM was trying to get away. GZ even said he was running away.

It does not make sense to me that TM would want to get away and circle back to confront at the same time.

 

[MouseTheLuckyDog]

Could the judge's choice of relevance v authenticity as the basis for her decision make any difference in the appeals process?

I believe Hornsby is wrong. IIRC the judge denied based on hearsay. I seem to remember her saying something like "this is clearly relevant" during that testy hearing.

 

[Mahouston69]

I totally agree that if it were close enough to his face, the slide itself or even the rear sights could have caused the laceration. That, however, is not the assertion that's being made. The conclusion has been that the weapon was responsible for the nose injury as a whole (bloody and swollen), which you seem to agree would necessitate him pretty much pistol-whipping himself in the face.

I think you also forget (citing your photos) minutes after he was swollen and bloody but a few hours later, minimal scratches and no swelling.

 

[iluvmua]

That is really bad news...He's done...

That's 70% to 90% vote not guilty in a poll.

 

[qwerty2013]

Again, even if the recoil did impact him in the face, it would not be the cause of the bloody nose, broken nose, or head injuries.

:twocents:

First of all, those who propose theories unfavorable to GZ should *also* be allowed to post their opinions, thoughts and theories, IMO.

Lots of scenarios that GZ's supporters posted were purely conjectural, especially about how TM circled back and "jumped" GZ, ruthlessly slammed his head onto wet concrete, inflicted grievous injuries, etc., in the absence of evidence or eye-witnesses, yet they were well tolerated by the other side.


I was told by several pro-GZ posters that GZ's DNA was not found on GZ's gun, it was bewildering as it would have been impossible, but the unanimous opinion was that DNA was so completely degraded it could not be accepted as evidence. This turned out to be false, as GZ's DNA, even very old DNA dating several months, were found on his gun, but TM's wasn't, which showed GZ lied about TM grabbing his gun.


When Mahouston posted her theory and opinion about gun recoil, I Googled more information for myself, and it appears that recoil depends very much on the gun and the shooter. For example, this and some other videos I've checked out showed *significant* recoil, and would likely inflict some injury if it were shot while held upside down close to one's face.

IMO

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98U1c5tJzqg"]Kel-tec PF-9 Recoil Demonstration & Failure to Eject - YouTube[/ame]

Of course this is only one of many possible theories, but it was important to those of us who *accepted* the evidence that TM's hands and sleeves had shown *no DNA* of GZ, and looking to see if there could be other causes for GZ's injuries.

Sure it was just an opinion, a hypothesis, but it isn't more far fetch than rain degrading GZ DNA on TM's person, not only *selectively* (i.e. they only got degraded and "disappeared" in such a way as to fit GZ's story) but also *completely*, so completely that even exquisitely sensitive PCR methods that could analyze *highly degraded* "cold case" evidence for DNA could not detect it....but of course absence of GZ's DNA on TM, or TM's DNA on GZ's gun, doesn't mean absence to some of GZ's supporters, it simply means it was there but miraculously, inexplicably disappeared.

http://www.nij.gov/topics/forensics/evidence/dna/basics/analyzing.htm

It is disturbing that evidence seems to be bent to fit the story, rather than the other way round, that evidence should tell the story.

IMO:twocents:

 

[faw720]

It’s a shame that Trayvon die but that tragedy should not be compounded by sending GZ to prison. I hope he’s found innocent but I too think it’s going to ended in a hung jury.

IMO I'm beginning to think hung jury also. Either that or perhaps the jury is just being extremely thorough in their examination of the evidence. I really hope it's not a hung jury because I don't want to go through thtis trial again.

 

[geevee]

If there isn't a Not Guilty verdict (which I think there should be in this case), I hope for a hung jury. Then, the crap will really hit the fan and all the corruption in this case will be exposed - it has already started....

BBM

Could you expound on this? What corruption has there been? I haven't followed this case as closely as some have but haven't heard of 'all the corruption'.
TIA

 

[JudyBolton]

Because he was using deadly force.

Imagine he shot him in the arm deliberately, and Martin lived.

Now we are at an attempted murder trial. The prosecution asks, "If you were in fear of your life, why did you take the time to aim at a non-vital part of the body that probably wouldn't have ended the threat?"

He also may have missed and wound up hitting one of the many people peering out from their porches. That's just not something you do when employing deadly force. That's why it's only allowed when in fear of life or great bodily harm.

:twocents:

Yep! The number one rule my Dad and Grandfather taught me about a gun- don't point a gun unless you mean to kill and then make SURE you aim for the middle of the body (not arms, legs, etc.) It is self-defense 101. imo

 

[SunnyinMO]

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...trial-scene-saturday-20130713,0,3423481.story

By Jerriann Sullivan, Orlando Sentinel
1:23 p.m. EDT, July 13, 2013

The crowd of spectators at the Seminole County courthouse is growing as the jury in the George Zimmerman murder trial heads into a second afternoon of deliberations.

More than 70 people are peacefully assembled outside the courthouse, where the jury is deciding whether Zimmerman broke the law or acted in self-defense when he shot Trayvon Martin, an unarmed 17-year-old on Feb. 26, 2012.

continue at link