Found Deceased WA - Cheryl DeBoer, 54, Mountlake Terrace, 8 February 2016 #6

[DatelineFan]

As I said despondent people are able to will themselves to do things you or I would not. I know it is difficult to believe. e.g. I found someone who stabbed themselves 10+ times in the chest.

Yeah, I actually have experience with suicide in my family, and worked in mental health with suicidal individuals. I still don't believe this was a suicide. Not without drugs in her system. Like I said, breathing is involuntary. That means you can't will yourself to stop, or will yourself not to fight to breathe.

 

[DatelineFan]

Breathing underwater doesn't work very well. People here seem to be focused on the bag not the water.

No, I know she was in water, but the water was shallow. That means she could easily sit or stand.

 

[Yvettea]

Breathing underwater doesn't work very well. People here seem to be focused on the bag not the water.

Focus on the bag may come from the determination that she died from asphyxiation and drowning. To asphyxiate you must be breathing air.

 

[jemini]

I can buy a suicide theory. I don't like it, but I can see that even if everyone around her is convinced that she was fine, it's possible that she concealed a deep unhappiness. The fact that the police, from day one, reassured the public that they were safe suggests to me that perhaps they thought she had cause to disappear. Right or wrong, they must have been acting on something? An overheard argument? A medical referral? Evidence of infidelity? Something. Because the rest of us that are uninformed, well, we just don't see it...We were alarmed, and scared but repeatedly Mr Pickard stated "we're safe" and he didn't back down until the public and press hounded for reassurances and then finally generic safety tips were issued.

The thing I find most troubling is the negative tox screen and I wait impatiently to have it confirmed by authorities. Nearly every reference and study I can find on plastic bag suicide is aided by a strong dose of barbiturate. If a person becomes unconscious and therefore loses the instinctive, innate need to breathe apparently the bag can be quite loose and still be effective, especially if water is involved. But if there is no evidence of drugs? How can a person's brain overcome the body's primitive and automatic impulse to breathe?

I cant buy it. She was intelligent and likely well educated on every aspect of this situation. I am older than her and admit I've never heard of the exit bag. In my career, i have seen and heard about more suicides than one person should. I've taken Asist, suicide intervention training. Two of my own family members comitted suicide. You dont just one day decide I'm going to kill myself. She was a new cat mom, one she waited months for, looked forward to grandkids. Sounds like she had a great career, & wonderful family. A person of Cheryls caliber wouldnt resort to razor blades to slice their wrists. Really? Nah, so not her style and i dont know her. You can just tell this about a person when loved ones, workmates and people in the community share what she's was like. There is no note and not a single reason. Not one.

I will need some hard evidence before i believe its suicide. The lady owns a handgun. Easy access to pills, lots of ways are easier than this nonsense. I think we need to focus on the whodunit because it's the only thing that does make sense. We avoid it because it's terrifying to think about lunatics that do this to lovely people. That it was made to look like a suicide, in order to mask the murder, and continue to get a thrill from it. Heinous dispicable coward.

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[JanetElaine]

IMOO

1. I really don't believe she hit an animal, scooped it up, placed it in her car. She was seen leaving at approx 6:55ish from her home, the car was seen at 7 am, she texts the carpool at 7:02 stating she left her badge and needed 10 mins. We know she never left that area in her car back towards home. I would also think she would have told the carpool she hit something that needed attention vs leaving her badge, and finally, the blood was tested and did not match domestic animals(i think this is what was said)

2. I really don't think she received a much wanted cat from a person who held the cat for her as well as being a breeder and a vet tech (my daughter is one so I have some knowledge) with matted hair that required a razor blade...perhaps this has been clarified and I missed it. Perhaps this is a long haired cat which could need their matted hair removed daily to prevent hairballs. I will ask my daughter for her experience.

bbm

Respectfully, we actually do NOT know that. Her car was there at 7:02 according to LE. And her car was there at 8am when someone parked behind it. There is nothing in the known facts that says Cheryl or anyone else did not drive her car anywhere else after 7:02am and (re)parked it there before 8am. We do not know if the car was found in the exact same spot she texted from.

It could very well be that Cheryl parked in say, spot A (wherever that is) on that road to text, then drove to the library to turn her car around in the parking lot (for example), and proceeded to drive to spot B (where the car was found) intending to go home, but parked there for whatever reason. Granted, she did not leave the area *far* towards home in that scenario. But for all we know she could have driven around for any amount of time between those two time points for whatever reason. Is it likely? I don't know. But there's nothing known at this point that says her car was in fact in the spot where it was found the whole time between 7-8am.

 

[DatelineFan]

I cant buy it. She was intelligent and likely well educated on every aspect of this situation. I am older than her and admit I've never heard of the exit bag. In my career, i have seen and heard about more suicides than one person should. I've taken Asist, suicide intervention training. Two of my own family members comitted suicide. You dont just one day decide I'm going to kill myself. She was a new cat mom, one she waited months for, looked forward to grandkids. Sounds like she had a great career, & wonderful family. A person of Cheryls caliber wouldnt resort to razor blades to slice their wrists. Really? Nah, so not her style and i dont know her. You can just tell this about a person when loved ones, workmates and people in the community share what she's was like. There is no note and not a single reason. Not one.

I will need some hard evidence before i believe its suicide. The lady owns a handgun. Easy access to pills, lots of ways are easier than this nonsense. I think we need to focus on the whodunit because it's the only thing that does make sense. We avoid it because it's terrifying to think about lunatics that do this to lovely people. That it was made to look like a suicide, in order to mask the murder, and continue to get a thrill from it. Heinous dispicable coward.

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I completely agree with you! Cheryl was too smart for this. If she had been suicidal (I don't believe she was), I don't believe she would have ended things this way. Not for one second!

Oh, but I am confused about your use of the term, "exit bag". She was found with a fast food bag. Much different than an exit bag.

 

[kdg411]

Focus on the bag may come from the determination that she died from asphyxiation and drowning. To asphyxiate you must be breathing air.

Yes she lost consciousness from asphyxiation however she died because she got drowsy and fell into the water and since her bag was loosely attached she breathed in that fresh water which was said to have been found in her lungs.

She wasn't dead from the bag alone because her organs were still functioning and breathing in that water is what led to her death. It took both actions, the bag and the water together that eventually took her life.

 

[ANZAC]

What about the innate reflex to breath? Does search and rescue volunteer training cover suicide methods, and how the mind overcomes reflex and innate desire to breath?

The basic training covers crime scene procedure, more discussion around homicide than suicide.
And basic first aid.

However, I've been to a LOT of suicides, including people that have suffocated or drowned themselves. (thought not both). I don't know how to explain medically how they do drown themselves in shallow water. But they do it, and these have been drug free (per tox screen) drownings. I am not a doctor but on one the ME said the subject "willed herself" to drown in shallow water. I'd love to hear a doctor talk about this.

 

[DatelineFan]

Yes she lost consciousness from asphyxiation however she died because she got drowsy and fell into the water and since her bag was loosely attached she breathed in that fresh water which was said to have been found in her lungs.

She wasn't dead from the bag alone because her organs were still functioning and breathing in that water is what led to her death. It took both actions, the bag and the water together that eventually took her life.

Do you have a link for this? I haven't read anything about her getting drowsy and falling into the water.

 

[La Louve]

I'm still on the fence about what happened to Cheryl.

I know that hypothermia slows breathing, makes a person drowsy and can eventually cause loss of consciousness and death. Is it possible that the cold outdoor temps combined with the cold water of the culvert would be sufficient to cause hypothermia?

 

[DatelineFan]

I'm still on the fence about what happened to Cheryl.

I know that hypothermia slows breathing, makes a person drowsy and can eventually cause loss of consciousness and death. Is it possible that the cold outdoor temps combined with the cold water of the culvert would be sufficient to cause hypothermia?

That would be a pretty slow death. Also, with hypothermia, people often think they are hot and start removing their clothes.

 

[jemini]

I completely agree with you! Cheryl was too smart for this. If she had been suicidal (I don't believe she was), I don't believe she would have ended things this way. Not for one second!

Oh, but I am confused about your use of the term, "exit bag". She was found with a fast food bag. Much different than an exit bag.

I don't even want to look up the 'exit ' bag. I presumed people mentioned it because of the fast food bag. While not an official one used? The method is what was meant. That is how I read it. If I were LE I would be checking people at all the stores she visits and especially her favourite fast food place.

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[kdg411]

What would make her drowsy?

Breathing with that bag over her head would have caused her to become drowsy or lightheaded when the oxygen levels started to decrease.

 

[ANZAC]

Oh, I posted that picture! Anzac verified that those 3 people were trackers. I don't know that they actually touch evidence, but I'm thinking that they don't.

Actually I said I recognized one. From behind. So I might be wrong...

In a potentially criminal case like this we'd NEVER touch evidence. However, sometimes if the scene is remote from the detectives, we sometimes have to transport clues and things to them (eg clothing, phones etc), we always document first with pictures.

The main reasons we wear gloves are a) thick gloves to deal with brush and b) nitrile gloves when giving medical care.

So we're really just eyes, ears, arms, legs in a lot of cases. But having training about what to do and not do means we can search large areas, find evidence and protect evidence until a detective gets there.

Very happy that you did this! Congrats!

Thanks! To state the obvious I won't be commenting on cases I've worked on or am working on (with one exception, an unidentified), though I might go and read some of the threads. In this thread I'm just giving my observations and experience... such that they are.

 

[Yvettea]

Those of you that have been to the site where Cheryl was found, is it possible for her to be sitting or squatting waiting to pass out and then topple over into the water? That is how I picture it as opposed to standing or lying down waiting to pass out.

Yes she lost consciousness from asphyxiation however she died because she got drowsy and fell into the water and since her bag was loosely attached she breathed in that fresh water which was said to have been found in her lungs.

She wasn't dead from the bag alone because her organs were still functioning and breathing in that water is what led to her death. It took both actions, the bag and the water together that eventually took her life.

So this explains it. She sat next to the creek with the bag over her head rebreathing the air to allow a slow buildup of carbon dioxide in her bloodstream. That produced the drowsiness that caused her to fall asleep and fall into the creek where she drowned. Had she allowed a rapid buildup of carbon dioxide in her bloodstream she would have been unable to resist the urge to get fresh air. Doing it slowly was the key.

Cheryl was a chemistry major and would've understood exactly how to go about this, I'm sorry to say.

MOO

 

[La Louve]

I am not a rescue. I am a breeder and shower of registered kitties. All of my cats are routinely tested for toxo and shockingly I've never had a positive. Heck after 25 years of breeding and showing and working at a vet I'm still negative! That was quite the shock when I was pregnant. I thought for sure I would be positive!

Thank you for correcting my assumption, and apologies if I inadvertently gave offence.

 

[ANZAC]

Yeah, I actually have experience with suicide in my family, and worked in mental health with suicidal individuals. I still don't believe this was a suicide. Not without drugs in her system. Like I said, breathing is involuntary. That means you can't will yourself to stop, or will yourself not to fight to breathe.

You can will yourself to put your head underwater. The reflex action will be to breathe. You'll breathe in water.
(edit) most normal people will fight to get back to air, but some despondent people are able to get themselves into some kind of calm state. I don't understand it, but I've seen the outcome.

 

[DatelineFan]

I don't even want to look up the 'exit ' bag. I presumed people mentioned it because of the fast food bag. While not an official one used? The method is what was meant. That is how I read it. If I were LE I would be checking people at all the stores she visits and especially her favourite fast food place.

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I feel like this is how misinformation is spread. If you don't even know what an exit bag is, why repeat it? I'm not trying to be rude, but I think out of respect for the family, and Cheryl, we should be careful about these things. Stryker made it clear that she wasn't found with one, and the media made it clear as well.

 

[Mamamerced]

I

So this explains it. She sat next to the creek with the bag over her head rebreathing the air to allow a slow buildup of carbon dioxide in her bloodstream. That produced the drowsiness that caused her to fall asleep and fall into the creek where she drowned. Had she allowed a rapid buildup of carbon dioxide in her bloodstream she would have been unable to resist the urge to get fresh air. Doing it slowly was the key.

Cheryl was a chemistry major and would've understood exactly how to go about this, I'm sorry to say.

Thank you and kdg411 for explaining this in a way I was unable. This is what I believe happened also.

 

[DatelineFan]

You can will yourself to put your head underwater. The reflex action will be to breathe. You'll breathe in water.

Yes, and then your body will fight by sitting up to cough, etc.

I will just agree to disagree with you. I don't believe this is what happened. I'm fine if others don't feel the same.