Found Deceased WA - Cheryl DeBoer, 54, Mountlake Terrace, 8 February 2016 #7

[Terrace12]

I wouldn't even be here if I had actually peaked and saw something. I'm just sharing my actual personal thought I had about the culvert and why it bothered me on that day at that moment. I also know for a fact, I couldn't handle seeing what that scene looked like, let a alone a body anywhere. I would have peaked just to peak, b/c i also was wondering what that weird thing looked like in the inside. I would of fainted/collapsed because i wouldn't have expected there was actually something there to see. This is where an instinct, met my fear, met a lame feeling of looking so dumb right now. But some other locals had to of had the same feeling...just not knowing what to do about a feeling..

Don't feel dumb at all. For a week I found myself looking under trees and places I would not normally look while driving. I have mentioned before that the culvert area drive seemed so quiet and eerie to me as soon as you pass all the apartments heading south. I am just wondering why LE didnt search this area for so long (unless they did and the body had not been placed yet). I wonder how many culverts in the city are that large? I am also wondering why it took so long to search Terrace Creek Park considering the park is just a block or two from Cheryls home? (Once again, they may have). IMO

 

[WhisperWorm]

I wouldn't even be here if I had actually peaked and saw something. I'm just sharing my actual personal thought I had about the culvert and why it bothered me on that day at that moment. I also know for a fact, I couldn't handle seeing what that scene looked like, let a alone a body anywhere. I would have peaked just to peak, b/c i also was wondering what that weird thing looked like in the inside. I would of fainted/collapsed because i wouldn't have expected there was actually something there to see. This is where an instinct, met my fear, met a lame feeling of looking so dumb right now. But some other locals had to of had the same feeling...just not knowing what to do about a feeling..

This is also for Terrace12. It must have been such a shock when you found out where Cheryl was found, knowing that you had those eerie feelings while driving right by the culvert well before she was found. I don't know how I'd handle finding that out!

 

[Terrace12]

This is also for Terrace12. It must have been such a shock when you found out where Cheryl was found, knowing that you had those eerie feelings while driving right by the culvert well before she was found. I don't know how I'd handle finding that out!

It was but I never really thought of the colvert as the actual spot in my head, possibly the area. (I could have just answered my own question regarding LE not checking, they may not have thought that either) But.... I was thinking LE may have "special training" to actually search these type of areas?

 

[Terrace12]

It was but I never really thought of the colvert as the actual spot in my head, possibly the area. (I could have just answered my own question regarding LE not checking, they may not have thought that either) But.... I was thinking LE may have "special training" to actually search these type of areas?[/QUOTE


That question may be for Anzac.

 

[Sun009]

Don't feel dumb at all. For a week I found myself looking under trees and places I would not normally look while driving. I have mentioned before that the culvert area drive seemed so quiet and eerie to me as soon as you pass all the apartments heading south. I am just wondering why LE didnt search this area for so long (unless they did and the body had not been placed yet). I wonder how many culverts in the city are that large? I am also wondering why it took so long to search Terrace Creek Park considering the park is just a block or two from Cheryls home? (Once again, they may have). IMO

I wasn't even searching, that's why having that eerie feeling at that exact moment, bothered me enough where I didn't turn left right away. I just was thinking how creepy that hole looks like right going under a road. I've seen it before, just my reaction at that time freaked me out. Those culverts aren't common enough where I even know where another would be anywhere...that's why it seems like that one, would just stare back at everyone, especially given the circumstances. Its a hole under the road, not just a wooded area, or even an average ditch. I felt stupid at the thought of me looking, b/c I figured someone else had the same idea to just check for the heck of it, at least. A feeling is just a feeling, but when it became an actual real legit reason for having it, you feel bad for having felt dumb for caring not to look stupid, when something more important was actually there.

 

[Sun009]

I also live in Edmonds on 244th, so thats all I could think was how that was on 244th pretty much. It was a little haunting for me.

 

[ANZAC]

RSBM
Anzac, in this particular instance, where Cheryl was found "partially inside of the culvert" on the west side, wouldn't the pool of water downstream from her be of interest because evidence would collect there? I'm talking about the water you can see in front of the opening of the culvert on the western side. It just seems logical that it's a spot where anything that floated downstream from where Cheryl was originally would get stuck, tangled in the brush that was partially inside that opening area of the culvert, etc., before the water moves into a smaller/deeper stream and heads south again.

I hope this makes sense. Thanks!

Well we don't know the time of the pictures. Maybe they had tape up, then took it down. We move ours around all the time. You can't just mark off a big area either and call it good. You have to have an operational or investigative reason to put the tape up. And if there's nothing on the grass, then it is ok for people to walk around on it, especially if the body has been removed.

Generally speaking, when a body is in the water, there isn't much associated with it. Things that fell in the water fell in where they fell in. I mean, a backpack or purse or something else might float downstream. But then you'd see it, mark it, photograph it, bag it.

Forensically the water dilutes most everything. You certainly don't want to or need to sample any bodily fluids that are leaking in the water. (this is actually something of a blood borne pathogen hazard for rescuers/LE)

The process would be something like this:
- LE take photos of scene, secure corpse if there's a risk it would move downstream
- LE scans immediate area for signs of entry, clues, evidence etc. tape off what you need to look at later
- wait for ME to arrive
- ME takes their own photos
- LE/fire/SAR remove the body from the water
- ME inspects body, takes photos, removes ID/effects
- LE takes a look
- ME takes body (if you're interested we have two types of body bags we use -- one is more of a mesh that we use for drowning victims, to allow the water to drain out...)
- LE goes back to taped off area to look at items more closely and photograph/bag them

The sequence could obviously move around a bit. WA state laws govern a few things here. We can move a body (minimally) to get it to the ME. The ME is the one that removes the ID etc

So, partially inside a culvert may mean that her body was in the water completely, not on either bank, and partially in under the culvert. There's no need to tape off the culvert because it isn't very accessible to the public in the first place. I doubt there was much evidence if any on the west side but really you'd need to be there to decide that. The photos really don't show enough to decide one way or the other.

Water also makes it hard to decide what evidence is interesting. Obviously a phone and a wallet are, but telling the difference between a day old can of beer and a 2 year old can of beer in the water is hard. Out on land we may say "ooh that looks fresh/recent" but in water we just tend to leave things alone unless it is obvious. I will admit to fishing out some empty vodka bottles once in a shooting involving Russian gentlemen but we eventually decided they'd been in the water long enough to not really matter (plus we found the weapon).

The only times we get REALLY granular about searching an area are small bones/teeth, shell casings. Most items of interest are bigger than that and obvious enough to identify and collect.

We had one homicide that involved packing peanuts as evidence (I kid you not) and we had to document/collect ASAP because of the wind blowing them. It was important because it was the trail of the perps.

I can also post links to the relevant state laws if anyone is interested.

 

[ANZAC]

It was but I never really thought of the colvert as the actual spot in my head, possibly the area. (I could have just answered my own question regarding LE not checking, they may not have thought that either) But.... I was thinking LE may have "special training" to actually search these type of areas?

So, it depends. If the water is fast moving and deep, they'd have a county marine/dive unit and/or swift water rescue take a look - they are trained to operate in water safely. If it is not fast moving and not too deep (eg <1 ft), either SAR or LE with waders/rubber boots could take a look, no special training needed. I'd wager the body was relatively easy to see IF you had a bright flashlight - and maybe you could see it without climbing in. Which is back to my point from a prior post about how I use a flashlight during daylight searches, for looking into culverts, ditches etc.

Some of the SAR K9 cadaver dog teams have small boats (eg to search a creek or lake shore).

I found a body within about 30 seconds that both state patrol and detectives had missed. But it was just dumb luck and due to the way the trees were arranged and the color of the skin. It doesn't mean they were bad at their job, or that I was good, just sometimes it takes someone standing at exactly the right spot at the right moment.

We (SAR) just missed a body the other month and the family found, it had floated into an odd location underneath something. It happens sometimes, and when you hear about it you say "well that place was obvious" but when you are doing the search there are 100 obvious places...

 

[mrsgladyskravitz]

RSBM
Anzac, in this particular instance, where Cheryl was found "partially inside of the culvert" on the west side, wouldn't the pool of water downstream from her be of interest because evidence would collect there? I'm talking about the water you can see in front of the opening of the culvert on the western side. It just seems logical that it's a spot where anything that floated downstream from where Cheryl was originally would get stuck, tangled in the brush that was partially inside that opening area of the culvert, etc., before the water moves into a smaller/deeper stream and heads south again.

I hope this makes sense. Thanks!

It's possible, depending on the flow of the current, (and yes, it can be swift) that evidence is even further downstream.

On Easter Sunday, the water was flowing at a pretty fast clip, winding its way under the Cedar Way, and 205th St. Culverts.

On the south side of 205th St., I discovered the creek to be fairly accessible. Continuing around the corner (Cedar Creek becomes 37th Ave NE) there appeared to be a second path providing easy access to the fast moving water of Lyon Creek.

Standing curbside, I viewed what appeared to be a blue drill on the water's bank. Glancing a little further downstream, I peered an unidentifiable orange object. I'm certain fast moving water carried these random items to their resting places. I believe it a reasonable assertion that criical evidence in Cheryl's case may also be in this general area.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

 

[WhisperWorm]

It's possible, depending on the flow of the current, (and yes, it can be swift) that evidence is even further downstream.

Standing curbside, I viewed what appeared to be a blue drill on the water's bank. Glancing a little further downstream, I peered an unidentifiable orange object. I'm certain fast moving water carried these random items to their resting places. I believe it a reasonable assertion that criical evidence in Cheryl's case may also be in this general area.

RSBM
Wow, great pictures!! It's crazy to think that if Cheryl had been there for - how long? Almost a week? How much evidence could have moved downstream, and pretty far downstream at that! I wonder how far the creek was followed and searched. Certainly a wallet or cellphone could move quite far if you saw (I'm assuming) a metal drill! The orange-reddish thing in these pictures - I have no idea. At first I thought it was a gas can, but when I zoomed in to 500% it looked more like a toy with a steering wheel. While zoomed in like that I saw a few other things that looked like garbage. I'm relatively sure that the creek was searched downstream, but just how far I wonder?

And as far as we know, her keys, phone, and wallet remain missing. Stryker said that personal items of hers were missing, so I'm curious if anything else was. This also makes me wonder where her glasses were found. I had assumed that they were found near her body, but with the water moving as swiftly as it was they would have washed away, too, so they must have been found folded up and in her pocket.

 

[WhisperWorm]

Well we don't know the time of the pictures. Maybe they had tape up, then took it down. ...

The process would be something like this:
- LE take photos of scene, secure corpse if there's a risk it would move downstream
- LE scans immediate area for signs of entry, clues, evidence etc. tape off what you need to look at later
- wait for ME to arrive
- ME takes their own photos
- LE/fire/SAR remove the body from the water
- ME inspects body, takes photos, removes ID/effects
- LE takes a look
- ME takes body (if you're interested we have two types of body bags we use -- one is more of a mesh that we use for drowning victims, to allow the water to drain out...)
- LE goes back to taped off area to look at items more closely and photograph/bag them

I wanted to take the time to thank you for this extremely helpful (to me) reply to my questions. Your input has taught me so much, and I really appreciate you sharing your knowledge with us.

Sorry to hear about the packing peanuts and the wind! That sounds like a nightmare. If I have packing peanuts in my house they can scatter if I just look at them wrong. Or I'll find one attached by static to my cat's butt.

 

[WhisperWorm]

I'm sorry to keep posting, but now I thought of another question:

What's the situation where the water flows under the road and comes out on the other side of 244th (or is it called 205th at that point) street? And how would LE search a skinny long pipe that goes under the roadway like that? I never saw any pictures of them searching it, but maybe someone was on-site and saw? From what I can tell from the other pictures it's not another big culvert on each end, just a pipe. What if there is evidence under the road where the water is flowing? I mean, it's worth checking, right?

 

[mrsgladyskravitz]

RSBM
Wow, great pictures!! It's crazy to think that if Cheryl had been there for - how long? Almost a week? How much evidence could have moved downstream, and pretty far downstream at that! I wonder how far the creek was followed and searched. Certainly a wallet or cellphone could move quite far if you saw (I'm assuming) a metal drill! The orange-reddish thing in these pictures - I have no idea. At first I thought it was a gas can, but when I zoomed in to 500% it looked more like a toy with a steering wheel. While zoomed in like that I saw a few other things that looked like garbage. I'm relatively sure that the creek was searched downstream, but just how far I wonder?

And as far as we know, her keys, phone, and wallet remain missing. Stryker said that personal items of hers were missing, so I'm curious if anything else was. This also makes me wonder where her glasses were found. I had assumed that they were found near her body, but with the water moving as swiftly as it was they would have washed away, too, so they must have been found folded up and in her pocket.

The picture below is Lion Creek entering the culvert under 205th.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

 

[Sillybilly]

Just an observation.

Viewing the pics of the culvert and the creek, and pondering suicide v. foul play, I have to wonder ... if someone was intent on committing suicide by immersing themselves in water, why choose a more shallow culvert/creek when a much larger and deeper, and more private body of water, Lake Ballinger, is only about a 3 min drive from where Cheryl's car was found?

 

[Sun009]

RSBM
Wow, great pictures!! It's crazy to think that if Cheryl had been there for - how long? Almost a week? How much evidence could have moved downstream, and pretty far downstream at that! I wonder how far the creek was followed and searched. Certainly a wallet or cellphone could move quite far if you saw (I'm assuming) a metal drill! The orange-reddis

And as far as we know, her keys, phone, and wallet remain missing. Stryker said that personal items of hers were missing, so I'm curious if anything else was. This also makes me wonder where her glasses were found. I had assumed that they were found near her body, but with the water moving as swiftly as it was they would have washed away, too, so they must have been found folded up and in her pocket.

I'm starting to wonder now, how dark it is in the culvert, and how Cheryl would be able see all that she was doing, glasses or not, it was dark in there right? She can see in the dark, comfortably? Doesn't even need to use a cell phone flashlight, what if she dropped the plastic bag? Anyone know how dark it is in there?

 

[Terrace12]

Just an observation.

Viewing the pics of the culvert and the creek, and pondering suicide v. foul play, I have to wonder ... if someone was intent on committing suicide by immersing themselves in water, why choose a more shallow culvert/creek when a much larger and deeper, and more private body of water, Lake Ballinger, is only about a 3 min drive from where Cheryl's car was found?

A very good observation!

 

[pinklilies]

Just an observation.

Viewing the pics of the culvert and the creek, and pondering suicide v. foul play, I have to wonder ... if someone was intent on committing suicide by immersing themselves in water, why choose a more shallow culvert/creek when a much larger and deeper, and more private body of water, Lake Ballinger, is only about a 3 min drive from where Cheryl's car was found?

I'm not sure but if it was suicide, maybe it has something to do with the person being fully immersed in water. Maybe that idea is not an option to some.
I think CD only had a small amount of water in her lungs, making me feel she had nearly passed, through asphyxiation, by the time she went under the water.
But that really is only a guess.

 

[perfectingpink]

I am going to do my best to be clearer with this post...wish me luck!

I have been thinking about the blood in Cheryl's vehicle. Could someone have been tormenting her in some way that led her to take her own life? Could someone have left an animal in her vehicle and that part of the torment put her over the edge?

 

[Sun009]

Everything managed to disappear from her, but the one thing that needed too, the bag. If she wasn't seen on home surveillance leaving with one, she had it already in her car ready to go?? She knew enough about that spooky culverts existence to end her life in there? She knew what she did/didn't need before she even was to get inside? She knew what the water was like beforehand, so she could drown, as well? She needed her glasses, to see to the very end of the road? Or to see every way to avoid people from even noticing there was a woman walking 1.5 miles, so after she gets reported missing, no one would still even remember seeing her? I can't decide if this makes her seem very prepared, or very confident on the fly...

 

[perfectingpink]

Everything managed to disappear from her, but the one thing that needed too, the bag. If she wasn't seen on home surveillance leaving with one, she had it already in her car ready to go?? She knew enough about that spooky culverts existence to end her life in there? She knew what she did/didn't need before she even was to get inside? She knew what the water was like beforehand, so she could drown, as well? She needed her glasses, to see to the very end of the road? Or to see every way to avoid people from even noticing there was a woman walking 1.5 miles, so after she gets reported missing, no one would still even remember seeing her? I can't decide if this makes her seem very prepared, or very confident on the fly...

Hmm...I guess I have to wonder if Cheryl wanted to commit suicide and didn't want to be found or identified immediately, what would make her think this culvert was the best place to do it?