WA WA - D.B. Cooper hijacking mystery, 24 Nov 1971 - #2

[Old Dominion]

In the 70's, there were also rumors the Cooper hijacking was a CIA gig, and the feds looked the other way.

Well I still think there's a good chance that at least one agent did. It just seems to me that if he was doing the best a room temperature IQ could on this case, his error would have caught itself in time. I'm beginning to understand just how he might have been able to roost this case as long as he did, and it just really is the only explanation.

Anyway, 60 minutes was interested, so, if we can only get a contact, or get someone to at least listen to our story, I think we have a good chance.

The problem is that so many people have cried Wolf that the media has become numb. I think you've got a really good chance if you can get an ear. Two things are going for you and your story. You've got DB, I think that's pretty much in the bag, but the bigger mystery is on the other side of the fence. We're still debating that one, and I think you as much as I would like THAT story out there in front of the American public. Regardless, the FBI is going to look terrible, and it wouldn't be the first time 60mins has barked up that tree.

BTW: Anybody think Teddy called in to Salt Lake City, when the McCoy hijacking occurred, and asked them if they needed any help, or called to make sure they didn't think it was him as the hijacker.

Excellent point. I doubt he was even following it, probably read about it in the paper a day or two later. That brings me to the point I made about the Cooper heist. How was it he didn't call in a day or so later? Chances are he'd have been up in his plane or swallowing a few Buds at a pool hall when that was going on and might not have heard about it until later when he caught it on tv. The timing of it alone screams "manufactured alibi".

Let's assume H-bach is fooled in 71. How in the world could he not figure it out in 76 when Teddy gets popped for a stolen plane? Howwwwwwwwww? I sure hope the FBI looks into this case, including the supervisers, the FAA, and how to prevent this from happening again.

Yes. This would be no different than Calame and Co. not investigating McCoy's whereabouts for the time surrounding Nov 24 of '71. It must be done, it HAS to be done...it's part of his job.

On the subject of low IQ I just want to offer something. I've seen quite a few people in many walks of life who were never thought of as being geniuses (on any level) do some pretty outstanding things work-wise. I would say that they accomplished this by being attentive to detail, having drive and determination, and by being diligently thorough. Any one of those three traits would have solved this case in short order. And I don't know of a person alive (not institutionalized of course) who doesn't have at or couldn't muster at least one.

I think it is a mistake to tell the world, that you are in law enforcement, and that you are assigned hijackings in Portland. Security and safety techniquest rely heavily on secrecy, that is why the saying, "need to know basis", is so popular and necessary when it comes to security. That, and "loose lips sink ships". I sure hope H-bach wasn't in the Navy in wwii.

left

This is true, but even if that mistake is made, where is it that the "puppet" reins come with it?

OD

 

[leftcoast]

Well I still think there's a good chance that at least one agent did. It just seems to me that if he was doing the best a room temperature IQ could on this case, his error would have caught itself in time. I'm beginning to understand just how he might have been able to roost this case as long as he did, and it just really is the only explanation.

Hard to argue with that.

Problem is that so many people have cried Wolf that the media has become numb. I think you've got a really good chance if you can get an ear. Two things are going for you and your story. You've got DB, I think that's pretty much in the bag, but the bigger mystery is on the other side of the fence. We're still debating that one, and I think you as much as I would like THAT story out there in front of the American public. Regardless, the FBI is going to look terrible, and it wouldn't be the first time 60mins has barked up that tree.

Correct. The first scammers cost a Newsweek editor his job back in February of 1972. Then, Coffelt's cellmate, then a certain forger whose wife (guzzle, guzzle). So, it is hard to get the media to listen to the story.

That is the whole problem with the case. He is too obvious. People expect this guy to be a loner, who nobody suspected, who came down from Mars, committed this crime, and went back to Mars, to hide. Problem with that theory, is that people from "mars", don't know the time it takes to drive to McChord, don't know air traffic control in the Northwest, don't know flap settings, or where the USPA rigger's card is located, or who to call when the crime has been successfully completed.

Excellent point. I doubt he was even following it, probably read about it in the paper a day or two later. That brings me to the point I made about the Cooper heist. How was it he didn't call in a day or so later? Chances are he'd have been up in his plane or swallowing a few Buds at a pool hall when that was going on and might not have heard about it until later when he caught it on tv. The timing of it alone screams "manufactured alibi".

Heck, I was never even taught the "what if" theory, and right away, it was obvious to me that calling in "two" hours after Cooper jumped was fishy.

If you knew about the crime two hours after it happened, you knew about it while it was happening.

My initial thoughts were always, why didn't he call the fBI while Cooper was on the plane, and share his skydiving expertise with the FBI?

Why would he think the FBI would suspect him? Guilty conscience?

Plus, how did he know the hijacker was even white?

Who's to say the hijacker wasn't black, asian, native, cuban middle eastern, etc.?

How did he know Cooper hadn't been caught?

Why didn't he wait until Cooper was caught, and then you don't have to call in?

Why bother an FBI agent in the middle of a hectic night, and not give him any help at all?

Makes me think the "ONLY" reason for the call was to "create" an alibi.

No, anyone with any common sense could see this one a mile away.

Anybody who didn't call into the fBI, or wasn't seen by an FBI agent, while Cooper was on the plane, should have had their life torn apart.

Even if Teddy had called in while Cooper was still on the plane, I would have torn his life apart, given his criminal past, and skydiving prowess.

NO, something stinks in Portland, and it isn't dead fish.

Yes. This would be no different than Calame and Co. not investigating McCoy's whereabouts for the time surrounding Nov 24 of '71. It must be done, it HAS to be done...it's part of his job.

On the subject of low IQ I just want to offer something. I've seen quite a few people in many walks of life who were never thought of as being geniuses (on any level) do some pretty outstanding things work-wise. I would say that they accomplished this by being attentive to detail, having drive and determination, and by being diligently thorough. Any one of those three traits would have solved this case in short order. And I don't know of a person alive (not institutionalized of course) who doesn't have at or couldn't muster at least one.

Good point OD. Some people who don't have the highest IQ, make up for it with hard work, common sense, and a willingness to ask for help from other's.

This is true, but even if that mistake is made, where is it that the "puppet" reins come with it?

Yes, hard to imagine such an oversight.

Like I said, if Teddy was a doctor, and didn't have a criminal past, maybe.

But, a convicted felon, with an armed robbery conviction, who is middle-aged, and the best skydiver in the northwest, no way in he**

Just think at how much money this fiasco cost us taxpayers.

We all make stupid mistakes, but, H-bach had "countless" opportunities to catch his mistakes, and never was able or wanted to.

And that, is very, very, difficult to believe. Even now, he is in denial.

Wouldn't any agent who really wants to solve this case, have said to us back in 2001, hey, maybe you are right. You know, I'm going to drive out to Ted's, and ask him where he was during the hijacking, and make sure I didn't make a mistake. Then, I'd have all the respect in the world for him, but, he didnt'. And for that, I find it very disconcerting. Doesnt' mean we are right, but, there is zero excuse for not calling the FBI on our behalf, and alerting them to look at Teddy. Heck, he did it for Duane.

Indeed, hard to believe. 60 minutes, where are you?

 

[Niner]

Bad, that everybody lost interest now that it is likely the case has been solved.

The big question is, does the FBI think the case has been solved, or are they even interested? Obviously we don't know. It could be interpreted two ways.
OD

exactly what I was going to say O.D!! Not solved yet!! Unless, of course the FBI is doing something on the sly... I hope so!

 

[leftcoast]

Personally, before our contact, I don't think the current FBI had an agent assigned to this case.

It was not an "active" case.

Whether this has changed or not, who knows.

At least, we figured out how it was done, and hopefully one day we'll get credit for our work.

In addition, we found a huge gap in procedures, which needs to be closed, if it hasn't already. Pre-assigning cases to agents, and not having any oversight over who the agents eliminate in a case, can lead to problems, as we found in this case.

Of course, this was a very unusual case. I doubt too many bank robbery suspects have their very own FBI agent that they can call afterwards, to see if they are suspects in the aforementioned crime.

BTW: THe KOIN segments will be available on youtube in a couple of days.

Some classic quotes from the two parties involved.

Such as "I'll guess I'll just have to live with knowing that I'm his alibi"
"he would have been a logical suspect"

and my favorite, "that man had everything planned to a "t", and "I'm not smart enough to commit such a crime".

And by the way, I only tear apart planes, rebuild them, sell them, have a world championship, and served in the special forces, but, I just wasn't qualified to be Cooper.lol

left

 

[Old Dominion]

Such as "I'll guess I'll just have to live with knowing that I'm his alibi"
"he would have been a logical suspect"

Yup, the "lobster" in his face was classic. Telling it just isn't like
SEEING it, that's for sure.

and my favorite, "that man had everything planned to a "t", and "I'm not
smart enough to commit such a crime".

I just loved the way he talked out of the side of his mouth and tried
to look as though he had a mouth full of "chaw" and was barefoot in
Kentucky. Quite a difference from the colloquial Teddy that presented himself in the KOIN series.

And by the way, I only tear apart planes, rebuild them, sell them, have a world championship, and served in the special forces, but, I just wasn't qualified to be Cooper.lol

left

My favorite:

"Well would-ja like to be deh-beh Cooper and we can sell more BookSssss!"

Good 'ol Teddy-Boy, he's a piece of work.

OD

 

[leftcoast]

Yes, it is very common for convicted felons to give up their night in order to help out a guy who is partially responsble for getting him and his skydiving business kicked out of a local airport. Makes a lot of sense to me.

Plus, the timing of it. No, sir. Ted didn't find out about the hijacking until Cooper had jumped two hours earlier.

Since his story is that he was sitting around his skydiving school drinking beer, why didn't he hear the rumor about the hijacking at Portland when it happened. Don't you think the school would be listening to air traffic control, or watching plane traffic, just in case they got a jumper that day.

And, since it was so nasty out, and rainy, why in the world was Teddy haning out at his skydiving school?

Why wasn't he at work? oops.

BTW:

ON AMW, on Saturday night, they had a case about a man in Portland who was cut up, and dumped in duffel bags into the Columbia river last year.

Guess what, all four duffel bags, containing his body were found within a few miles of each other, and each had washed up onto the shore.

Funny thing, not one of the duffel bags had washed up, and was buried under sand. Interesting.

So, anybody who thinks that if Cooper hit the Columbia he would automatically wash into the Pacific Ocean, and not wash up is just not doing research related to the Columbia river.

Every year, bodies wash up, and rarely, once that I know of, a body made it from Portland all the way to the Pacific, but, ended up washing up on the beach on the coast.

So, even if Cooper landed in the Columbia, which mathematically is almost nill, there is a very good chance his body would have washed up on the shores of the Columbia. To think money, which doesn't float, would wash up, but, not a body, is ridiculous.

That money was placed on the beach, probably on the night of the hijacking, in order to hide it from the FBI. To me, it just is the most logical answer.

left

 

[Old Dominion]

Since his story is that he was sitting around his skydiving school drinking beer, why didn't he hear the rumor about the hijacking at Portland when it happened. Don't you think the school would be listening to air traffic control, or watching plane traffic, just in case they got a jumper that day.

And, since it was so nasty out, and rainy, why in the world was Teddy haning out at his skydiving school?

Why wasn't he at work? oops.

Question: Was he still driving the 7-up truck at this time?

Guess what, all four duffel bags, containing his body were found within a few miles of each other, and each had washed up onto the shore.

Funny thing, not one of the duffel bags had washed up, and was buried under sand. Interesting.

So, anybody who thinks that if Cooper hit the Columbia he would automatically wash into the Pacific Ocean, and not wash up is just not doing research related to the Columbia river.

Agree. You also have to consider that IF DB was a "novice" as the "peanut man" makes him out to be, he'd have deployed the chute earlier rather than later. So if we're to believe that he landed in the Columbia there would have been a cute that opened at least partially. This would have created a huge air pocket no matter how you slice it. Sooo even if he washed out to sea, slim a chance as that is, he would not have disappeared.

That money was placed on the beach, probably on the night of the hijacking, in order to hide it from the FBI. To me, it just is the most logical answer.

left

The question I'd like to ask H-B is how he thinks all those packs washed down the Washougal and all stayed together all the way to their final resting place at Tena's bar. And if he's going to tell me that they were bound together until the binding rotted away, then show me how a pack that large would have made it through the (in some places) inch deep waters of the Washougal.

If he can do that successfully and to my satisfaction, then I'll be more than happy to inform David Copperfield that he's out of a job.

OD

 

[leftcoast]

Question: Was he still driving the 7-up truck at this time?

Probably not. Don't know for sure. He was popped for the armed robbery on January 31, 1971. HE plead guilty on October 25, 1971. He was given a 5 year suspended sentence. He told us he was "asked to resign", which means fired, because of the armed robbery. So, I seriously doubt he was working the day the plane was jacked. IF he was, then he wouldn't have needed to call H-bach, cause he would have had an alibi for the time Cooepr boarded the flight, which was 3pm, in all liklihood.

Agree. You also have to consider that IF DB was a "novice" as the "peanut man" makes him out to be, he'd have deployed the chute earlier rather than later. So if we're to believe that he landed in the Columbia there would have been a cute that opened at least partially. This would have created a huge air pocket no matter how you slice it. Sooo even if he washed out to sea, slim a chance as that is, he would not have disappeared.

Not only that, but, mathematically, the plane was about 20 to 40 miles north of Portland at 8:13pm. that is one heck of a long parachute ride.

Thing is, if you were himmy, wouldn't you know the exact time the plane went over the Columbia river. I asked him, and he was stumped. Then, he said, I guess, around 8:25 or so. I would have thought that this would have been a key part of the investigation. Find the time, then work backwards toward Aerial, and the jump.

You are correct, a novice would pull earlier, and that was a 28 foot chute, not to mention that bodies initially sink, then come back to the surface in a week after the gases fill the abdominal cavity.

Plus, everyone in the world was looking for Cooper, including in the Columbia river. So, I find it hard to believe nobody saw this chute in the river, or a man.

All along the Columbia river, where the flight went over, are houseboats, and homes which view the river. On top of this, this is a lot of traffic on the Columbia with boats coming in with goods, mainly from Asia. On top of this, good old Tipper said that he fished every day on the Columbia, and he isnt' he only one. IF a chute or man was in the Columbia, he wouldn't go long before he was noticed.

The question I'd like to ask H-B is how he thinks all those packs washed down the Washougal and all stayed together all the way to their final resting place at Tena's bar. And if he's going to tell me that they were bound together until the binding rotted away, then show me how a pack that large would have made it through the (in some places) inch deep waters of the Washougal.

If he can do that successfully and to my satisfaction, then I'll be more than happy to inform David Copperfield that he's out of a job.

Talk about putting a what if, on top of a "what if", on top of a "what if".

Plus, some of the money was perfectly legible. In the dirty Columbia, the bills would have been dirty, and hard to read. Some of the bills, are so clean you can read the serial numbers with the naked eye.

Not only do I not think the money ever went into the Columbia, I don't think there is a chance that the bag could break open, and the 3 packets could miraculously stay together, touching each other, bury themselves, and still be touching each other.

Plus, there is no way a rubber band could keep a packet together for the time it took to travel the 40 miles. The water would wear away at the rubber band, and eventually break the pack open. Proof of this, is when Brian Ingram picked up the packets, the rubber bands immediately broke. So, that theory is just not plausible.

There is only one way the money could end up at Tena's bar. Someone took their hands, made a few small holes, and dumped the money bag, chutes, etc, into this holes. this way, there is no physical evidence crossing the I-5 bridge into Oregon, there is no way a "tracking device" would work, and there is no way Cooper could be convicted. Plus, no frozen ground in which to dig, no need to trespass on somebodies property to get the money, no way someone could tell the area was dug recently, and a way for a guy on probation to not leave the state of ORegon, and still be able to retreive his savings account. just hop in the old boat, and go downstream, load up the money in a cooler, and all of a sudden, you have your very own airport.

Even if he was arrested back in 71, they would need physical evidence, or a positive id. Given FS's memory, I just don't know. She did a wonderful job with the sketch, but, you just never know. Plus, what kind of memory does Tina have, and would she help?

left

 

[Old Dominion]

Probably not. Don't know for sure. He was popped for the armed robbery on January 31, 1971. HE plead guilty on October 25, 1971. He was given a 5 year suspended sentence. He told us he was "asked to resign", which means fired, because of the armed robbery. So, I seriously doubt he was working the day the plane was jacked. IF he was, then he wouldn't have needed to call H-bach, cause he would have had an alibi for the time Cooepr boarded the flight, which was 3pm, in all liklihood.

Ok. There goes the "at work" alibi. Might have worked 36 years later though, because not only can no one remember, but records are not generally kept for more than 6. Not to mention that the co. he worked for that distributed the soda might be long out of business.

Thing is, if you were himmy, wouldn't you know the exact time the plane went over the Columbia river. I asked him, and he was stumped. Then, he said, I guess, around 8:25 or so. I would have thought that this would have been a key part of the investigation. Find the time, then work backwards toward Aerial, and the jump.

Yes, this would be only a part of putting the entire thing into perspective.
His shortcomings are so numerous that no thorough person ever could have squandered so much. Unbelievable!

Plus, some of the money was perfectly legible. In the dirty Columbia, the bills would have been dirty, and hard to read. Some of the bills, are so clean you can read the serial numbers with the naked eye.

It's not just "dirt". How do you think that river stones get so smooth and well polished? They get worn down by the silica in the bottom of rivers. These are STONES not paper money. Case closed!

Even if he was arrested back in 71, they would need physical evidence, or a positive id. Given FS's memory, I just don't know. She did a wonderful job with the sketch, but, you just never know. Plus, what kind of memory does Tina have, and would she help?

left

In '71 I don't see a problem. The BIIIIG problem is 36 years of coasting. WRT Flo, the biggest part of that sketch isn't just that it "fits". It's in the details of the DIFFERENCES between it and the two widely circulated and why it was even necessary to have that sketch done. I say this because, regardless of the claims that Weber was a "Chameleon", show me how he can possibly change either his hair, or more importantly, his signature giraffe neck and slender frame into the short thick neck and physique of Cooper. Looking at the 70's pictures that have been presented, Weber's neck is so thin and tall that he would never even encounter a shirt with a collar that would even reach his adam's apple, let alone his chin. That is not consistent with either the Cooper sketch or the '74 of TM, not to mention that there is very little resemblance otherwise. I'm all ears on this ....anyone?? Tanqueray?

OD

 

[leftcoast]

Ok. There goes the "at work" alibi. Might have worked 36 years later though, because not only can no one remember, but records are not generally kept for more than 6. Not to mention that the co. he worked for that distributed the soda might be long out of business.

Oh, I think we can find someone who worked with Teddy back at 7-up. He worked there for over 6 years, from 1965-71, when he no longer needed to work. Just think, all he needed was for someone to vouch he was working, or a time card, or a friend, and then we wouldn't need this alibi of the FBI calling, which we know it simply not true.

Funny thing. Teddy didn't know that we had his life torn apart. So, at lunch, he told us that he told his boss at 7-up that he was quitting to open his skydiving business. Then, I asked Ted, so, did you have any money saved, or just quit. Teddy, says, no, I didn't have any money saved, just decided to quit, and do skydiving full time.

OF course, we know the only truth to that story, is that he worked for 7-up. The rest, was made up, as he admitted a week later, when I told him I knew about the armed robbery, and the conviction.

Yes, this would be only a part of putting the entire thing into perspective.
His shortcomings are so numerous that no thorough person ever could have squandered so much. Unbelievable!

Yes, it's actually quite simple.

Go down to ATC at the Portland airport, and ask them what time the jet behind Cooper's landed at Portland. Then, ask them if they knew the exact time the flight went over the Columbia. NOt only that, but, the helicopter Himmy was in, I'm sure, had flight logs, showing what time they left PDX, and returned.

Just amazing to me. Common sense. Find out the time the plane went over the Columbia, allow for 3 1/3 miles per minute, and find out where the plane would have been at 8:13pm. It's too logical, I guess.

It's not just "dirt". How do you think that river stones get so smooth and well polished? They get worn down by the silica in the bottom of rivers. These are STONES not paper money. Case closed!

I did not know that.

The first time I saw those bills in the book, I knew they had never hit the water, ever. It's rather simple, the sand would be wet on the outside of the bills, as the water seeps through the sand. So, the outside of the bills, would begin to mold away, due to being damp, as well as the bills on the top, and bottom of the stack. IF you look at the bills, that is exactly what happened. Plus, little pieces, as small as a penny, of the twenties, were found as deep as three feet below the surface. Obviously, these pieces came lose from the sides of the twenties, as they molded away due to the dampness, and the pieces settled deeper into sand as the water began to settle.

In '71 I don't see a problem. The BIIIIG problem is 36 years of coasting. WRT Flo, the biggest part of that sketch isn't just that it "fits". It's in the details of the DIFFERENCES between it and the two widely circulated and why it was even necessary to have that sketch done. I say this because, regardless of the claims that Weber was a "Chameleon", show me how he can possibly change either his hair, or more importantly, his signature giraffe neck and slender frame into the short thick neck and physique of Cooper. I'm all ears on this .....anyone?? Tanqueray?

We both know that WEber's build could never be described as "compact", or stocky. Plus, he has those big ears, and huge nose, and no receeding hairline. Not to mention that FS said it wasn't him. It doesn't matter how many gin/tonics one consumes in an hour, he just doesn't look like the UM sketch.

The biggest clue, is that the hijacker didn't start singing his favorite song, to the crowd on the plane. That's a tell-tale sign it wasn't the Chameleon.

Plus, it was obvious from what Cooper said on that plane, that he was from the pacific Northwest, and some type of pilot. Very few people, know terms such as "holding pattern", aftstairs, interphone, gear, flap settings, d-rings, how long it take to refuel a 727, frozen nozzle in Seattle is unlikely, that a 727 could safely take off with the aftstairs down, and to know that allowing the plane to refuel in LA, or SanFrancisco would allow the plane to fly a route over the ocean, instead of v-23, all point very strongly at a pilot, skydiver, and a local.

I agree, if the FBI was on their toes, they could have easily been able to build a case. Plus, staking out a certain houseboat, may have led to a windfall.

BTW: IN a recent article in Wired magazine, the author references the DB cooper case. It's amazing how popular this case still is, 35 years later. http://www.wired.com/techbiz/people/magazine/15-08/ff_jimgray

And where the IE piece is on youtube, in the right column, is a clever song written by a recent group, describing the Cooper jacking. It is about 4 down the list, and kind of unique.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dat-UPEB15M

Plus, I understand the KOIN segment, and the UM segment, may be available on youtube shortly.

left

 

[Old Dominion]

Ha ha, yeah I forgot that the Chameleon liked to sing...in piano bars wasn't it? I guess if he's Cooper, the only way he'd get a piano bar is in the upstairs of a 747. Wrong plane, so I guess someone would argue he's still viable as Coop.

No, Weber could never be described as well built or stocky. Interesting it is that Flo never forgot that Cooper had a thick, short neck, as is evident in the UM sketch. Weber's neck is thin and long, and would easily have been an outstanding descriptive feature, as would those Prince Charles ears. Chameleons change their color, not their stature. They also like to sing in piano bars, or so I hear from a talking Tanqueray bottle.

I was watching the UM segment again, and I wonder if Cooper really told Tina: "Take your bible and get up in the cabin" or if that was just thrown in for TV. I know he ordered her up there, but I wonder about mentioning the bible. I thought it was pretty funny though. Interesting that all but the captain are actors, the captain was played by William Scott himself.

OD

 

[leftcoast]

Good one OD.

I looked at the tape, just to get re-acquainted.

The tape has seen better days, and been taped over, and over again, and the years have taken a toll.

My first take, is that he said, "go up there with your fly boys", and don't come back.

Then, I listened to it tonight, and it does sound like "bible", so, I do wonder.

We all know, that Tina is pictured carrying a bible with her as she leaves the debriefing with Rataczak.

Ya, that is the only time I've seen Capt. Scott in any of the shows. He died in 2001, and supposedly he told his wife he thought Cooper drowned since he thought he jumped over Lake Merwin. I don't know how he could explain the money at Tena's bar.

Funny how they made the co-pilot bald, if you get what I mean.

Related to the sketch.

First thing I noticed, is how much younger the sketch looks.

He just doesn't look like a guy in his mid to late 40's.

As you know, FS told us that she thought he was about 40.

But, the face in the sketch looks like a younger man, who is rapidly balding, with a thick neck, long nose, big cheeks, and is described as stocky.

Now, Duane has none of those qualities. He was lanky, skinny neck like OD pointed out, big ears like Prince Charles, full head of hair, and close to 50 in 1971. PLus, FS said it wasn't him.

It's funny, but, if you think about the plan, not many people, actually saw Cooper standing. HE sat the entire time, and at the end, spent time kneeling while he inspected the chutes.

Plus, his initial plan was to have all three girls get off at Seattle, and for him to be alone in the back of the plane.

How was he planning on closing the left front door? I guess maybe, Tina, could have closed it on her way out. IF not, a sniper could have easily gunned him down at this point.

Besides, that plan is flawed. Once the girls were left off the plane, the flight crew could have easily escaped out of the cockpit windows with their emergency ropes. So, I do wonder just how good his plan was.

Each day, I am more, and more confident, that we got the right guy.

I'll always remember the quote, which I think is very telling.

"I'll show them"

Then, in 1994, when a certain man was being shut down for an offense, his comments were, "ya, the FAA and I have not liked each other for many years", and , his other comment was, "I'm selling out, I'm moving out of this country".

Seems someone has an ongoing tiff with the FAA

left

 

[Old Dominion]

My first take, is that he said, "go up there with your fly boys", and don't come back. Then, I listened to it tonight, and it does sound like "bible", so, I do wonder.

I watched it again, and you could be right. Very difficult to hear, sounds almost like Fly-ble. Tina doesn't have a bible in her hands, but it is known she carried it and I believe she eventually went to a monastery. Funny how the actor they chose for Cooper had a southern accent.

Now, Duane has none of those qualities. He was lanky, skinny neck like OD pointed out, big ears like Prince Charles, full head of hair, and close to 50 in 1971. PLus, FS said it wasn't him.

I agree. Another outstanding feature besides the giraffe neck is the huge adam's apple. Not to mention that I don't think anyone would describe Duane as having a "broad forehead" the way Flo described Cooper.

How was he planning on closing the left front door? I guess maybe, Tina, could have closed it on her way out. IF not, a sniper could have easily gunned him down at this point.

Besides, that plan is flawed. Once the girls were left off the plane, the flight crew could have easily escaped out of the cockpit windows with their emergency ropes. So, I do wonder just how good his plan was.

Never thought about that. Good point. However, isn't that a tough shot
with the angle as far back as he was sitting?

OD

 

[leftcoast]

I watched it again, and you could be right. Very difficult to hear, sounds almost like Fly-ble. Tina doesn't have a bible in her hands, but it is known she carried it and I believe she eventually went to a monastery. Funny how the actor they chose for Cooper had a southern accent.

Yes, I also had the advantage of listening to the show, before the tape was worn out. If I had to guess, I think it is flyboys, but, whose to say. Notice how the actor is rather short, and has a "bald spot, and dyed hair?

Right, in the episode, she isn't carrying a bible to the front. But, who's to say she didn't have her bible with her on the plane, and used it during this ordeal for comfort. I honestly don't know.

The picture I was talking about, is in Tosaw's book, and it shows Tina with her "every ready bible" in hand, as she left the debriefing in Reno.

This whole case makes me sick.

He negatively altered how many lives that night. Can you imagine being a FA, or pilot, and every flight after that night, you would be eyeballing the customers as they board, wondering which one is going to be the next clown.

And to think that Teddy said , "he heard that Cooper was gentle".
'
What a cold thing to say. He terrorized, threatened to kill them by blowing up the plane, and he's going to tell us, that Cooper was "gentle"?

It's funny, but, everything about Cooper, according to Teddy, was wonderful. How smart he was, how he had it planned to a "t", and how gentle. Now, H-bach thinks Cooper didn't have it planned to a "T", and just jumped in the middle of nowhere. Now, just how does Teddy know that man had everything planned to a "T"? And how did he know that McCoy and Cooper were not one in the same? Teddy called McCoy an idiot, and said that he "deserved" to get caught. Also, that the FBI wasn't upset with Cooper, but, they just wanted it stopped. Right, that sounds like the FBI. Hey, keep the 200g's, just don't do it again.

Think about it. You are a world champion skydiver, and someone comes into your turf, and commits a henious crime. Are you going to pat them on the back, and have Cooper show he is a "better" and smarter skydiver than yourself, or are you going to say he was good for nothing, and cost you a ton of money, since you had to help the FBI, and become a suspect because of him? On top of it, not have one lead for the FBI. In all the years of jumping, all the students, all the competition, all the airports, the time in special forces, and you never came across "anyone" who may have been Cooper? Don't buy that for a second. 25g's, or 3 years of pay (if one had a job), and you turn it down.

I agree. Another outstanding feature besides the giraffe neck is the huge adam's apple. Not to mention that I don't think anyone would describe Duane as having a "broad forehead" the way Flo described Cooper.

So, G/T's only evidence, the similarity in sketches, is basically non-existent with the UM sketch.

Even with glasses, I would think a witness would be able to say, "no", rather easily. In no shape or form, would Duane ever be described as stocky, muscular, receding hairline. Never. Buy stock in Tangueray.

On the other hand, I would think quite a few people, would look similar, and it would be hard to tell from a picture.

However, I have no doubt, that even 35 years later, if Flo. and Tina view the KOIN and IE pieces, they will know, one way or another. Sure, he looks different, but, it's the voice, the build, the structure of the face, etc.

Never thought about that. Good point. However, isn't that a tough shot
with the angle as far back as he was sitting?

Absolutely. Plus, Cooper had the girls put down all of the shades, so that a sniper couldn't take a shot, or get a photo of Cooper.

Plus, those airplane windows are very small, and strong. I'm no expert on bullets, but, I would think you would need one heck of a large caliber bullet, to penetrate the window, and nail Cooper. Plus, the pilots demanded that LE not intervene, since they thought they could save everyone from death if they cooperated. Obviously, today, it wouldn't be their decision. I think Homeland Security would not allow that plane to leave the tarmac, under any circumstances.

Plus, like you said, the angle would be horrible.

What I was talking about, was taking a shot at him when he went to close the front door, if he had followed through with having Tina leave at Seattle. Maybe, his plan was to have Tina close it. Don't know, since he was smart enough to stay at the back of the plane throughout.

left

 

[Tranaice]

Reading all of this still fascinates me. You have put so much time and effort into this leftcoast. I really wish someone would grab this story and run with it and expose this guy for who he really is.

 

[leftcoast]

Reading all of this still fascinates me. You have put so much time and effort into this leftcoast. I really wish someone would grab this story and run with it and expose this guy for who he really is.

Thanks Tranaice:

We appreciate all the support.

Yes, this case is fascinating. Most people can understand how Cooper exited the plane safely, but most, don't see how someone can escape the FBI manhunt.

And, they are right. It's virtually impossible. That is why, the best defense, is a good offense. You call them, and stop the investigation, before it starts. It's a good plan, but, rarely works.

I'd love for 60 minutes, or Dateline, to do a story, and have a legitimate investigator, sit down with Teddy and Himmy together, and ask them the hard questions.

Considering, all parties are innocent, and did their jobs correctly, apparently to their comments, they should have no problem.

Heck, I'll even debate Teddy in any setting, and he can bring proof forward, and I'll bring my evidence, and a few surprises.

No, I dont' think you have seen the end of this. It just takes time.

It took us 7 years, before we were comfortable with our knowledge and case, to come forward to the media, so we are patient.

Thanks for the continued support.

left

 

[Old Dominion]

Yes, I also had the advantage of listening to the show, before the tape was worn out. If I had to guess, I think it is flyboys, but, whose to say. Notice how the actor is rather short, and has a "bald spot, and dyed hair?

Yes, I think you're probably right. Bad audio to say the least. Got to admit though that if he really did say what I thought he did it's pretty funny. I guess that I kinda' heard what I wanted to hear.

The picture I was talking about, is in Tosaw's book, and it shows Tina with her "every ready bible" in hand, as she left the debriefing in Reno.

Yup Tosaw. Pretty damn good book, but he's going to need a civil engineering degree if he's going to drain the Columbia.

And to think that Teddy said , "he heard that Cooper was gentle".
What a cold thing to say. He terrorized, threatened to kill them by blowing up the plane, and he's going to tell us, that Cooper was "gentle"?

Hey, that's just what he "heard". Remember that he "doesn't fit the profile my GOOD MAN". LOL. That's another one of my favs.

So, G/T's only evidence, the similarity in sketches, is basically non-existent with the UM sketch.

Well yes, except that it appears that Duane was a "special" kind of chameleon. I'm hearing that he now looks like Mayfield. I never saw a chameleon that could morph his structure, but a Tanguaray bottle never lies .

However, I have no doubt, that even 35 years later, if Flo. and Tina view the KOIN and IE pieces, they will know, one way or another. Sure, he looks different, but, it's the voice, the build, the structure of the face, etc.

Always wondered about this. Can it be done? Why oh why did the FBI have to not only F__K up this case but disenfranchise the witnesses in the process? I could hardly blame them for never cooperating again.

What I was talking about, was taking a shot at him when he went to close the front door, if he had followed through with having Tina leave at Seattle. Maybe, his plan was to have Tina close it. Don't know, since he was smart enough to stay at the back of the plane throughout.

left

If he was smart enough to have the shades pulled, I doubt he'd have ever put himself in front of that door.

OD

 

[leftcoast]

Yes, I think you're probably right. Bad audio to say the least. Got to admit though that if he really did say what I thought he did it's pretty funny. I guess that I kinda' heard what I wanted to hear.

No, it is hard to decipher the two. I'm surprised that Cooper spoke in such a mean tone to Tina, by telling her, "get into the cockpit with your flyboys, and don't come back". IT just, doesn't sound, very gentle, now does it?

Yup Tosaw. Pretty damn good book, but he's going to need a civil engineering degree if he's going to drain the Columbia.

Good one. OD.

Yes, he did a good job writing the book. Only thing, I hope Civil Engineering doesn't include a lot of math, because, if you do the math, regarding the speed of that plane, the distance from Seattle to the Columbia river, you come up about 30 miles, or 10 minutes short. I think he spent too much time talking to Cossey, since it is his theory that Cooper ended up in the Columbia. I wonder if they had the same theory before 1980, or if it changed when the 6,000 was found in 1980? And his theory on the dredging causing the money to end up on the beach, just is kind of putting a what if, on top of a what if, etc.etc.etc.

Hey, that's just what he "heard". Remember that he "doesn't fit the profile my GOOD MAN". LOL. That's another one of my favs.

I must have been unconscious. I just don't remember him saying that. I'll have to ask Right. :waitasec: :waitasec: :waitasec:

Actually, the truth of the story, is that he called Himmy, because he didn't want Himmy to think he was the skyjacker. So, obviously, he must have thought he did fit the profile, otherwise, he wasted his time, and a bunch of worry, on a pre-holiday night, for nothing.

So, if he didn't fit the profile, why call the FBI??????:waitasec: :waitasec:

And why would you think the FBI would be looking for skydivers??? I though Himmy said the guy was inexperienced. Plus, didn't Teddy say that he wouldn't do the jump for "all the money in the world"? Yet, on IE, Teddy says, "ya, I could make the jump". Hmm, change of opinion. Tell the fBI the jump is hard, and the public 35 years later, that the jump was a piece of cake. I wonder why he changed his opinion?

And just where did you hear this about Cooper being "gentle"? I don't remember any interviews with either Tina or Florence saying he was gentle. They did say, he was never cruel or nasty, but, that is not the same as being gentle. Hijacking and gentle, are polar opposites.

Well yes, except that it appears that Duane was a "special" kind of chameleon. I'm hearing that he now looks like Mayfield. I never saw a chameleon that could morph his structure, but a Tanguaray bottle never lies .

Can you imagine, pulling off a heist, and having some knucklehead's wife, coming forward, 25 years later, and trying to take claim for the heist, to her dead husband? Talk about luck. Then, on top of it. An FBI agent, who didn't even work on the Cooper case, claims McCoy is Cooper. Never showed a photo of McCoy to the FA's, or placed McCoy in Oregon, but, nevertheless, writes a forgettable book, and gets sued for his trouble.

Now, if Cooper isn't the luckiest man in the world, who is? On top of it, he has his own personal FBI agent, to call on that night, and basically eliminates himself from contention as Cooper.

Just who was running the investigation, Teddy boy, or Himmy?

Always wondered about this. Can it be done? Why oh why did the FBI have to not only F__K up this case but disenfranchise the witnesses in the process? I could hardly blame them for never cooperating again.

Right. First, you have to give the witnesses some sympathy, since they had just been through the most stressful night of their lives.

Then, you keep showing up at their houses, with stacks of photos', expecting the girls to pick out the hijacker. After a while, all the photo's are going to start to look the same, and one will think they screwed up.

One thing we do know. The FA's didn't get upset with the FBI because HImmy kept on personally interviewing them. We know that for a fact. Maybe, it's because, the FBI tried to cut corners, and have the FA's solve their case, instead of finding Cooper, building a case, and then bringing a photo lineup, and having the girls pick Cooper out, or better yet, flying them to Portland, and having them Id Cooper in person. Now, that would have been the answer. HMM.

Yes, it does make you wonder.

IF the FBI had a 'good" suspect, they would have been tailing him, and brought the girls in for a "face to face", behind two-way mirrors, to try and get a positive id. Not to mention matching his prints to the plane, or searching his residence. NO, I just dont' think the FBI ever had a good suspect, and Himmy basically stated this on one of the shows.

 

[Old Dominion]

No, it is hard to decipher the two. I'm surprised that Cooper spoke in such a mean tone to Tina, by telling her, "get into the cockpit with your flyboys, and don't come back". IT just, doesn't sound, very gentle, now does it?

No it doesn't. Since there is narration over the top of it, I don't think that UM ever expected anyone to listen to it too carefully. Still think that telling her to get up there with her "bible" is kinda' funny.

Yes, he did a good job writing the book. Only thing, I hope Civil Engineering doesn't include a lot of math, because, if you do the math, regarding the speed of that plane, the distance from Seattle to the Columbia river, you come up about 30 miles, or 10 minutes short. I think he spent too much time talking to Cossey, since it is his theory that Cooper ended up in the Columbia. I wonder if they had the same theory before 1980, or if it changed when the 6,000 was found in 1980? And his theory on the dredging causing the money to end up on the beach, just is kind of putting a what if, on top of a what if, etc.etc.etc.

Yup. If you do the math, Tosaw and his boys are going to be busy for quite some time, and it won't amount to a hill o' beans.

I must have been unconscious. I just don't remember him saying that. I'll have to ask Right. :waitasec: :waitasec: :waitasec:

Watch the IE segment again.

Actually, the truth of the story, is that he called Himmy, because he didn't want Himmy to think he was the skyjacker. So, obviously, he must have thought he did fit the profile, otherwise, he wasted his time, and a bunch of worry, on a pre-holiday night, for nothing.

Always wanted to ask about that. Teddy says he called in to offer assistance, Himmy says he called and said "I know you're going to be looking for skydivers and I want to help any way I can". And you're saying Teddy said "I didn't want you to think it was me". So which is it? All of 'em?

Yet, on IE, Teddy says, "ya, I could make the jump". Hmm, change of opinion. Tell the fBI the jump is hard, and the public 35 years later, that the jump was a piece of cake. I wonder why he changed his opinion?

I really think he needed a little credibility on national TV. After all, he told KOIN that the FBI called him 3 times that night, but he told IE that he called the FBI. Why would anyone who wasn't a part of this ever need to change their story?

Just who was running the investigation, Teddy boy, or Himmy?

That's the $1.98 question. Still wondering about this one. Even a
dumb door knob says "what if" once in a while, and we're not talking
about a double-decker, so he'd be ok w/ the FBI rule book. Speaking
of following the FBI rule book, arent' there SOPs in there? It just doesn't make sense. Show me any LEO who has been in investigations for even 5 years who hasn't seen numerous cases broken by relaxing the profile.

One thing we do know. The FA's didn't get upset with the FBI because HImmy kept on personally interviewing them. We know that for a fact. Maybe, it's because, the FBI tried to cut corners, and have the FA's solve their case, instead of finding Cooper, building a case, and then bringing a photo lineup, and having the girls pick Cooper out, or better yet, flying them to Portland, and having them Id Cooper in person. Now, that would have been the answer. HMM.

Or.....Ralphie Lindberg was going to save them money by solving it from the air in his Cessna. Hey...all he had to do was spot a dead guy in a black business suit next to a stream from 200 ft in the air clipping at about 100 knots. Piece of cake. Besides, I hear he kept a big can of goober peas in the cockpit .

OD

 

[leftcoast]

Yup. If you do the math, Tosaw and his boys are going to be busy for quite some time, and it won't amount to a hill o' beans.

Yes, Tosaw made the ultimate mistake. Tosaw actually thought the odds of Cooper landing in the Columbia (despite math which states this is nearly impossible), was more likely, than either the FBI erroneously eliminating Cooper, or that Cooper escaped the dragnet. IF 200k was found, or some floating in the water right after the hijacking, or the chute, or the money bag, briefcase, maybe. But, eight years later, hidden in sand, just doesn't sound probable to me. Especially, considering the odds the money found one of the few places along the Columbia that has sand. Not to mention, 10 miles west of the flight path. Just doesn't seem to add up.

Watch the IE segment again.

No, I know what you are talking about, from the IE segment.

What I meant, was that Teddy "never" said that to us. Teddy never said, I don't fit the profile, nor did he ever call either of us, "my good man".

Believe it or not, he was silent. Sticking to his story that the FBI had called him 5 times that night.

Always wanted to ask about that. Teddy says he called in to offer assistance, Himmy says he called and said "I know you're going to be looking for skydivers and I want to help any way I can". And you're saying Teddy said "I didn't want you to think it was me". So which is it? All of 'em?

No, according to the book, Teddy called in "out of sincere civic intentions".

When we had lunch with Himmy, he said, no, "ted called in because he didn't want us to think he was the hijacker".

Teddy never did tell us that he phoned the FBI. Every single time, Teddy denied ever calling the FBI. His story to us, on five different occasions, is that the FBI called him, either 3, 4, or 5 times, depending upon which visit we are talking about.

Once the KOIN piece aired, and "himmy said I don't remember it that way", then, supposedly, Teddy changed his story to IE, and told them that he had in fact called the FBI to offer his assistance.

You are correct. Why would someone have so many different stories related to that night. Also, FBI sources confirmed to us, that Teddy did in fact call the FBI that night, after Cooper had jumped, and before 10:15pm.

I really think he needed a little credibility on national TV. After all, he told KOIN that the FBI called him 3 times that night, but he told IE that he called the FBI. Why would anyone who wasn't a part of this ever need to change their story?

Exactly. IF Teddy would have just told us that he called the FBI at 10pm, and the FBI eliminated him, then, we would be less suspicious. Not much less, but, a little.

Then again, Teddy knows, that anyone with 5th grade math skills, can figure out, that someone can jump at 8:13pm, land, and make it to a phone in two hours. Especially a world champion, former Green Beret, and skydiving instructor. So, if he told everyone the truth over the years, somebody would have caught on. The FBI alibi, that is, the FBI calling him, is very hard to prove false. One would have to call the FBI, and get them to call back for starters, and then get the story from the horse's mouth. So, the plan worked for 35 years, until someone, knew the truth, and checked with FBI sources, instead of a story from the man himself.

That's the $1.98 question. Still wondering about this one. Even a
dumb door knob says "what if" once in a while, and we're not talking
about a double-decker, so he'd be ok w/ the FBI rule book. Speaking
of following the FBI rule book, arent' there SOPs in there? It just doesn't make sense. Show me any LEO who has been in investigations for even 5 years who hasn't seen numerous cases broken by relaxing the profile.



Or.....Ralphie Lindberg was going to save them money by solving it from the air in his Cessna. Hey...all he had to do was spot a dead guy in a black business suit next to a stream from 200 ft in the air clipping at about 100 knots. Piece of cake. Besides, I hear he kept a big can of goober peas in the cockpit .

Right. If Himmy was in charge of the case, he should have been "quarterbacking" the search, and investigation, from either the airport, or FBI office in Portland.

Why would the lead investigator be in his own Cessna, flying over the dropzone the next day. IT makes zero sense. Unless, you want to screw around in your plane, and charge the expenses to taxpayers. Finding a plane wreck from the air, is very difficult. Finding a man, dressed in a suit, from a Cessna, without FLIR, is next to impossible.

Plus, anybody with any instincts, would smell a rat. You have a hijacking, a missing middle-aged man, and boom, two hours later, who calls, but a middle-aged man, with a criminal record for armed robbery, who is a skydiving instructor, and expert, and you don't put two and two together?

Even if HImmy didn't think Teddy was the man, he still should have asked him where he was, or thought about the possibility that he "planned" the heist. Maybe, just maybe, if Himmy called back any of the tipsters, they would have told him that Teddy had just lost his job, had his plane repossessed, lived by the airport, and was pissed at the FAA. Every single thing, that the FBI was looking for in a suspect.

Somebody has "a lot of answering to do".

left