WA WA - D.B. Cooper hijacking mystery, 24 Nov 1971 - #3

[MrShutter45]

Here are the L5 luminosity versions. L5 is probably not an accurate representation. But L1...
?

according to the troubleshooting Flight 1 form, there are 10 different moon textures, I have to find out what happen to my moon :banghead: I probably whacked something out messing with the weather, I will show the 4 or 5 pages of weather so we can be sure it's the best setting we can get.

it has seasons, turbulence, dew points, barometric pressure, different clouds, wind direction, temp, rain settings, snow, icing setting etc etc. I'm sure I left a bunch out.

For future porposes, if nothing else, I'll add this containing the search terms lunar, moon, phases, lunar phases and moon phases.
By searching these terms you’ll probably discover that the question has never really been answered properly in any of the simulator sites, or at least I didn’t find one that gave me a satisfactory answer.

I found this on the Flight 1 form:

So let me take a shot at some facts here:

The internal clock for scenery in FS2004, no doubt, was finalized sometime in 2003. By setting the time and date for the calendar year of 2003 and flying FS9 the phases of the moon were correct. I'm not sure, but I'd guess it would be a more recent date in FSX, depending the the year MS finalized the package.

Without going into great detail I did some research. I'm not a rocket scientist, but I do love navigation in the flight simulator.
First of all, one rotation of the earth is slightly less than 24 hours and one year, measured by the Roman calendar is slightly less than 265.25 days and never changes by more than a second every few years. I won’t go into that here. Secondly, the moon very accurately rotates around the earth approximately every 27.3 days. And thirdly, the moon’s phases vary from 29.272 and 29.833 days however the “mean number” for this can’t be accurately computed because the variations are much more complex.

It soon becomes obvious that the developers of MSFS 2004 decided to calculate the rise and set times of both the sun and the moon and leave the phase calculations alone. As I said above, if you check any year in FS9, and I went all the way up to 2030, you’ll find that the rise and set times are very accurate for both the sun and the moon.

David OPA Marshal says there are 10 textures for the moon in FS9’s scenery. I’m not sure why, since FS9 only displays the first crescent, first half, full, last half, last crescent and new moon, unless there are some different daytime textures?

The phases of the moon do not increase and decrease incrementally each day, but instead changes on dates which are found in the astronomy tables, well, at least in 2003 for FS9. For instance, if you were watching the first half at 00:00:00Z on the offical date the moon becomes full, as one expamle, you can watch it jump from half to full during your flight. By checking the tables and looking for a night moon (at my location, which is EST), I found it this one. I went to November 8, 2003 to see the moon change at 00:00:00Z. Also notice that the official change in the charts wawe 01:13Z for that particular month.

I used November as the month and year here at my time zone, because the change occurred during the night time hours. If you’re located in a different time zone simply use the local time charts to find a visible moon to watch the change in your part of the world. I used these charts provided on the USNO site which comes in handly for celestial nanagation as well.

For the moon phase changes go to the Phases of the Moon UTC charts. http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/MoonPhase.php

The moon’s rise and set charts for your local time zones are here. http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/RS_OneYear.php

Upon making some more more observations I see that the moon phases were correct until February 29, 2003 (leap year), before the phase differences began to show up. How much, is only determined by what figures MS used as a time constant for moon phase changes. For instance the change to a full moon was offical on March 6, 2004, but doesn't happen until March 8, 2004 in FS9. Once again, I'm using USA EST as my local time zone.

At this point in time in 2011, the phases are 10 days behind. Incidentally, I also found that the phases will be back in sync in the year 2025 in case you only fly real time and don't care or just want to wait.

I hope this helps
Last edited by NikeHerk67; 02-16-2011 at 08:23 PM

 

[georger]

according to the troubleshooting Flight 1 form, there are 10 different moon textures, I have to find out what happen to my moon :banghead:

Thats funny. will ponder the rest ... you could probably just skip the lunar feature? The
stars arent accurate, I dont think, 'cept I havent seen a northern exposure yet to know.
This is ane xample of where discussions about the Cooper case can get pretty convoluted
and irrelevant (maybe) sometimes. Who knows what Cooper used except the obvious things
like looking for light on the ground, except 99 swears that never happened - was impossible
due to the weather specifics. Hominid has poked a small hole in that, theoretically. With
Cooper going due south, on the rearstairs looking out (north) he might have seen the North
star and big dipper, and to some people that would have given a rough estimate of his
latitude (changing) and the time. Latitude estimate would have been easiest of the two.
But, he may have done none of this. My thinking has always been Cooper saw the glow of
PDX-VCR coming up somehow, just at Rat and Anderson reported, and took his leave with
that clue? Anyway . . .

imho, this 20:05-20:10/16 period is very crucial. It was not long before 20:05 that Cooper
had a conversation with someone up front 'to level the plane and lower air speed!' which
caused Scott to radio, paraphrasing: 'guess he's getting ready to jump'. Oh, I seem to recall
it was Tina who sent the message forward for Scott and Rat, for Cooper on the com.

So something in the 20:05 period had Cooper ready to try and jump. He knew PDX and VCR
were coming up, somehow? His sudden readiness to jump and PDX-VCR coming up were just
a coincidence? Except he waited more, didnt jump immediately, after asking them to lower
the speed and level the plane. The pilots were straining the plane trying to level off and
achieve a constant airspeed under the conditions: flaps went from 15d to 30d.
Oscillations. Then a soft bump. No further replies from Cooper on the com followed by: 'I
think he took leave of us a while back'.

Something accounts for Cooper jumping when he did. Its either random with him finally being
ready to try, or something specific. But nothing specific anyone can point to. Except all
initiated BY COOPER himself and no one else in the 20:05 time frame.

 

[MrShutter45]

I found the moon, BUT, for some reason it will not show on Nov 24, 1971? I have a pic of the moon on a different date and a pic due north.

moon
http://s1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee380/dave767/?action=view&current=moon-1.jpg

North view
http://s1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee380/dave767/?action=view&current=moon-1.jpg#!oZZ1QQcurrentZZhttp%3A%2F%2Fs1224.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee380%2Fdave767%2F%3Faction%3Dview%26current%3Dnortview.jpg

 

[Niner]

Jo Weber and Robert Blevins have stated that Cook stacked the deck with
his Gosset photos - that the Gosset photos he uses are from a much
younger date than 1971 and by the time 71 rolled around Gosset looked
nothing like the FBI sketches, looked much older, as evidenced by
retirement photos of Gosset shot arund 1971. Who knows. I dont.

:what: well that wasn't very nice of him!! So, then you might be right - it can't be him... oh well! :rocker:

 

[hominid]

I set the simulator to November 24 1971, these pics are from 10,000 right on V23.

Does changing the date change the pattern of lights from Vancouver and Portland?

BTW: I'm on a roadtrip, so will not be around here much for a few days.

 

[MrShutter45]

Does changing the date change the pattern of lights from Vancouver and Portland?

BTW: I'm on a roadtrip, so will not be around here much for a few days.

you mean as in population growth? if so I would have to check that one, good question if that is what you mean

I just typed in 1935 for Seattle and buzzed the town, this should answer that question

http://s1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee380/dave767/?action=view&current=1935.jpg

 

[hominid]

....A lot of this area seems to be flat terrain but I do not know enough about the area to be certain that it's all flat terrain, .....

There are about 3 hills quite near Merwin L. From there to Vancouver it's ant hills. Practically flat land.

 

[hominid]

you mean as in population growth? if so I would have to check that one, good question if that is what you mean

Yes. The connection at this motel is too slow to check the pic now. Later.

 

[hominid]

....the nite flights are interesting, you really can't see PDX until you are around Battleground, you can see it slightly in my cockpit photo, but 2 or 3 minutes past the dam you can see it.

You can see Vancouver and Portland before then though? You should be able to unless you've got solid cloud cover.

 

[MrShutter45]

You can see Vancouver and Portland before then though? You should be able to unless you've got solid cloud cover.

That's the way I see it, I noticed this the first time I flew past the dam that I could see Portland, so depending on the cloud cover it could have been seen almost 30 miles North.

 

[georger]

That's the way I see it, I noticed this the first time I flew past the dam that I could see Portland, so depending on the cloud cover it could have been seen almost 30 miles North.

there we go with that 20:05-10 again. Your north photo looks accurate.
North star almost 44 degrees above the horizon, out of view on your photo.

 

[MrShutter45]

there we go with that 20:05-10 again. Your north photo looks accurate.
North star almost 44 degrees above the horizon, out of view on your photo.

Ok, looks like this will work for reconstructing the flight, I will continue to practice the flight path to Portland.

Take off 7:36
Flaps 15 deg.
turn right following V23
speed around 170
Altitude 7,000 @ 7:42
7:51 Climb to 10,000
7:53 level @ 10,000
speed around 170/180
7:59 turn @ maylay intersection.

I'm sure I have left things out, I m out of time right now, gotta go to work:seeya:

 

[georger]

Ok, looks like this will work for reconstructing the flight, I will continue to practice the flight path to Portland.

Take off 7:36
Flaps 15 deg.
turn right following V23
speed around 170
Altitude 7,000 @ 7:42
7:51 Climb to 10,000
7:53 level @ 10,000
speed around 170/180
7:59 turn @ maylay intersection.

I'm sure I have left things out, I m out of time right now, gotta go to work:seeya:

One of the central assertions in this case is: He did not know where he
was, he did not ask and was not given the route - all he knew was he was
presumably heading south to Meixco via Reno. And Ckret even intimated
he may not have known that with any certainty because 'he did not know the route
being taken'. Its circular. He did not know, therefore he did not know! He did not ask and
was not told, therefore for Cooper it was unknowable and he did not know. :banghead:

But he identified Tacoma from the air, the same folks (above) say. He
knew south from north from east from west, we presume. He knew up
from down? He knew Portland to get to Seattle. The FBI is not even sure
this was anything but an random hijacking act; that the choice of flights
may have been random - nothing to suggest he targeted that flight and
that time. He was desparate (FBI claim) and therefore not fully rational.
Dirty foul mouthed food server thugs are not rational beings, says the sterotyper,
Ralph Himmeslbach, and yet there was nothing in place in the FBI or otherwise
to prevent airplane hijackings on prime-target-days and times, in Oregon or
in Washington, over Thanksgiving, 1971!

So this moron who does not know where he is manages to get off the
plane in the 20:05-20:10/16 period, very close to Portland-Vancouver
and some of his money is found later on the ground at Vancouver, just as
the door placard is found later near Toutle near where the plane passed -
all coincidence if not miraculous and lucky, for all concerned. New heros
are born from ordinary people from these miraculous events being dispensed
by the gods of fortune who actually run the unknowable universe.

It does not MATTER! what he knew or did not know or where he could of
been or might have been - it only matters where he was and what it
was.! Cooper a lucky guy by accident, who certainly died, the FBI says, no
matter when he jumped or where ?

"He did not know where he was" .... is irrelevant. It only matters that it
happened where it happened ... and even Himmelsbach after multiple conferences
with many experts admited that in 1976, to a newspaper reporter.

 

[MrShutter45]

One of the central assertions in this case is: He did not know where he
was, he did not ask and was not given the route - all he knew was he was
presumably heading south to Meixco via Reno. And Ckret even intimated
he may not have known that with any certainty because 'he did not know the route
being taken'. Its circular. He did not know, therefore he did not know! He did not ask and
was not told, therefore for Cooper it was unknowable and he did not know. :banghead:

But he identified Tacoma from the air, the same folks (above) say. He
knew south from north from east from west, we presume. He knew up
from down? He knew Portland to get to Seattle. The FBI is not even sure
this was anything but an random hijacking act; that the choice of flights
may have been random - nothing to suggest he targeted that flight and
that time. He was desparate (FBI claim) and therefore not fully rational.
Dirty foul mouthed food server thugs are not rational beings, says the sterotyper,
Ralph Himmeslbach, and yet there was nothing in place in the FBI or otherwise
to prevent airplane hijackings on prime-target-days and times, in Oregon or
in Washington, over Thanksgiving, 1971!

So this moron who does not know where he is manages to get off the
plane in the 20:05-20:10/16 period, very close to Portland-Vancouver
and some of his money is found later on the ground at Vancouver, just as
the door placard is found later near Toutle near where the plane passed -
all coincidence if not miraculous and lucky, for all concerned. New heros
are born from ordinary people from these miraculous events being dispensed
by the gods of fortune who actually run the unknowable universe.

It does not MATTER! what he knew or did not know or where he could of
been or might have been - it only matters where he was and what it
was.! Cooper a lucky guy by accident, who certainly died, the FBI says, no
matter when he jumped or where ?

"He did not know where he was" .... is irrelevant. It only matters that it
happened where it happened ... and even Himmelsbach after multiple conferences
with many experts admited that in 1976, to a newspaper reporter.

maybe he took several flights before hand? I believe McCoy did that.

I should have some video of the flight online tonite, I downloaded a video capture program and will try it out lease:

 

[Niner]

maybe he took several flights before hand? I believe McCoy did that.

I should have some video of the flight online tonite, I downloaded a video capture program and will try it out lease:

Boy, can't wait to see this!! :woohoo:

So, are you on your computer flying this "plane" - sorry, an oldie but a goodie here, and don't know "how" you can do this - it's amazing!!

I read about McCoy, and he seems to be a "good" person of interest!

 

[georger]

maybe he took several flights before hand? I believe McCoy did that.

I should have some video of the flight online tonite, I downloaded a video capture program and will try it out lease:

I believe it was Snowmman found a NWA schedule showing the late
afternoon PDX to SEA flight #305 had been added in August of '71.
So the flight didnt even exist to be hijacked prior to that. The NWO Flight
#305 general schedule FS3 still in use after Aug 1 71 doesnt even list
the stop at Portland then on to Seattle! So how did Cooper know about
the flight to get on board at Portland, unless he was current, local, well
informed, random, or something ?
attached -

 

[georger]

re-stated better:

Snowmman found a NWA schedule showing the late afternoon,
PDX to SEA flight, had been added to flight 305 in August of '71.
See the previous Northwest Orient Flight Schedule FS3 as Flight 305
existed prior to Aug 1, 1971.

So how and when did Cooper identify this flight in order to hijack it?

:moo:

 

[MrShutter45]

Boy, can't wait to see this!! :woohoo:

So, are you on your computer flying this "plane" - sorry, an oldie but a goodie here, and don't know "how" you can do this - it's amazing!!

I read about McCoy, and he seems to be a "good" person of interest!

Well I couldn't get the proper desktop recorder to work right :banghead: so I pointed my video camera at the screen, the quality is horrible! Illegal in 48 states I'm told :floorlaugh:

Until I can get a better video made, this is all we have. at least you can get some idea of the software.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqnslmAfo0s

 

[georger]

Well I couldn't get the proper desktop recorder to work right :banghead: so I pointed my video camera at the screen, the quality is horrible! Illegal in 48 states I'm told :floorlaugh:

Until I can get a better video made, this is all we have. at least you can get some idea of the software.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqnslmAfo0s

That, looks fun! :rocker: This could be invaluable.

 

[hominid]

Ok, looks like this will work for reconstructing the flight, I will continue to practice the flight path to Portland.

Take off 7:36
Flaps 15 deg.
turn right following V23
speed around 170
Altitude 7,000 @ 7:42

Flaps to 30 deg, speed about 160KIAS

7:51 Climb to 10,000
7:53 level @ 10,000

Flaps to 15 deg

speed around 170/180
7:59 turn @ maylay intersection.
....