WA WA - Samantha Sayers, 28, Vesper Peak, North Cascades, 1 August 2018

[thesaint]

How can a rock look so blue?

maybe his or her "baby" left them for another.

 

[bradfordsleuth]

Just checked Steve Monchak FB post of photo. In his comments it says they checked the area and it is a rock, not a backpack. Yes, you read that right, a rock. Smh.

What a terrible blow to the family's hope.

 

[North American Blue Jay]

Wait - there is another or other hikers missing who were seen on the mountain with Sam>???

I'm not too clear on the forum rules for linking (being a newbie - so excuse me if this breaks a rule - because I'm understanding there is some material you can't link) but .. this is the video in question:

Jared Middleton

Sayers' mother and partner say that it's her at the very beginning in the distance, leaning against a rock. I've seen some close-up stills and it certainly seems to be a taller woman (Sayers was reported as 5'8".) She has poles and she is crossing this snow field towards those boulders connecting to Sperry (another mountain peak that people climb).

Further in the distance, ahead of her, and closer to the boulders, is a man crossing the snow with either a heavy bag or another person who seems to have fallen. I think it's another person, if you look at it closely a few times (but I have terrible eyes for this kind of detail. I give those drone viewers a hats-off).

The person who posted the video time stamps it at 1:30 PM. Sayers was reported first at Vesper Peak summit at noon by multiple witnesses. As far as I know (and I could be wrong), no one has identified the hiker or hikers ahead of Sayers.

My understanding is, this isn't the trail to Vesper Peak (though some probably can get there this way if they're seeking an arduous challenge). The hiker who took and posted the video never made it the summit. He seems to have taken a wrong turn and wound up in front of this snow field. He thought he had to cross the snow field to get to the summit, so he decided this was far enough. Then he took this 360 degree shot of the beautiful scenery and, so it happens, filmed Sayers and this other person or persons .. doing something together.

Anyway, if they haven't identified these other hikers, then how do they know one way or the other whether or not anyone else is missing? Because .. not all missing persons are reported, either.

What they're doing looks risky. After all, if there's two people, one of them has fallen. If it's not a fallen person, he's strangely dragging a very heavy bag. So, I think the sheriff should identify and locate them. Certainly seems the family should try, too. Find out what was going on here.

The news reports have been very inaccurate and conflicting. In the latest, they're saying she was last seen at 3PM. However, I read that the 3PM witness was actually at noon and that this report was initially incorrect. If that's true, would this 1:30 PM video be the last known "sighting" of Sam Sayers?

 

[North American Blue Jay]

I think it’s one thing to sign the registry and be questioned by law enforcement, which I’m sure they have done. It’s another to be hounded by 20,000 people on social media who think that they’re doing the right thing because it will “find Sam”. I hope if the family gets it that they keep it secret and turn it over to a private investigator who can do things appropriately.

Also, I don’t really agree with the idea that simply being on the mountain means that you assume responsibility for other hikers. That may be the nice thing to do, but it’s not required.

Finally, I’m sure it is missing because the police likely have it. That would be one of the first things they would check, I would assume.

Yes, totally agree with you about being hounded on social media. I was on a platform (not Facebook) and some FB devotees involved almost ritualistically with this story were just pouncing on me for even discussing it. I have to say, it seemed like some people were kind of irrational in terms of their emotional involvement with the story. So, I can't imagine what public witnesses have probably gone through - and in lieu of tens of thousands of story followers.

Nevertheless, the family is in such a desperate situation with time ticking by on this young woman's life, in the wilderness, we're betting. They have some resources and I think the mother reported that they're hiring a private investigator, so yes, it's probably best to proceed in that manner first if they have the names of these witnesses. But .. if they didn't have such resources, I wouldn't blame them for posting photos of the public record, either - and asking if people knew where certain people were if they hadn't come forward. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm guessing they'd have the legal right because it's public domain.

On the other hand, I'm not sure that you have the right on a public lands trail not to help another hiker in trouble. And certainly, I would assert you have a moral responsibility, if not legal. This is the wilderness. If you see someone fall, for example - or you're doing something with another hiker and they fall - you have a responsibility to report and seek help. If you don't, and you're doing something with them - and then leave - aren't you kind of like a hit and run driver? And even if you weren't doing something with the other hiker at the time? But simply saw this happen - or came across the hiker? Don't you think you have a responsibility to immediately leave the area to find help - or one person in your group leaves while you stay with them? Your day-off is over, basically. A higher responsibility steps in, like it or not.

Personally, I don't *get* people hiking that day not contacting the sheriff's office (unless they just didn't hear about it). I understand if they don't want to go public or contact the family, but they could easily talk to the sheriff's office privately.

If it were me, I would do all three because listening to Sayers' mom is so heartbreaking - what that family is going through. It would mean so much to her to have a witness contact here with any information. And even if you think your information is so insignificant - you never know - it might help authorities tie some key facts together in order to figure out what happened and find her. My guess, too ... if you decide to contact the family, it's probably in your own best interests to just go public on social media too. It won't be fun in a lot of ways, but this woman's life is more important than some temporary problems on social media, and, since you don't know how together a family is going to be under such stressful circumstances, a public record is probably best. For some people, if they're contacting the sheriff's office, they might want a public record, too. Someone once told me that going public can be the best protection, sometimes, in spite of its drawbacks.

I'm not clear why you're sure the sheriff's office has the registry. Like I posted, a woman who hiked within a few days of Sayers posted that the registry was missing. Though she might have meant the summit registry. The trail is more remote. And certainly the parks dept people aren't very regularly heading up to the summit themselves? Maybe the registries aren't maintained well. Besides which, not everyone signs.

Still, it would be good if the family could get a copy if it exists. It would be good to piece together everyone who was there that day, to the extent it's possible. Speak to each witness about everyone and anyone they saw - and when and where.

 

[zecats]

I'm not too clear on the forum rules for linking (being a newbie - so excuse me if this breaks a rule - because I'm understanding there is some material you can't link) but .. this is the video in question:

Jared Middleton

Sayers' mother and partner say that it's her at the very beginning in the distance, leaning against a rock. I've seen some close-up stills and it certainly seems to be a taller woman (Sayers was reported as 5'8".) She has poles and she is crossing this snow field towards those boulders connecting to Sperry (another mountain peak that people climb).

Further in the distance, ahead of her, and closer to the boulders, is a man crossing the snow with either a heavy bag or another person who seems to have fallen. I think it's another person, if you look at it closely a few times (but I have terrible eyes for this kind of detail. I give those drone viewers a hats-off).

The person who posted the video time stamps it at 1:30 PM. Sayers was reported first at Vesper Peak summit at noon by multiple witnesses. As far as I know (and I could be wrong), no one has identified the hiker or hikers ahead of Sayers.

My understanding is, this isn't the trail to Vesper Peak (though some probably can get there this way if they're seeking an arduous challenge). The hiker who took and posted the video never made it the summit. He seems to have taken a wrong turn and wound up in front of this snow field. He thought he had to cross the snow field to get to the summit, so he decided this was far enough. Then he took this 360 degree shot of the beautiful scenery and, so it happens, filmed Sayers and this other person or persons .. doing something together.

Anyway, if they haven't identified these other hikers, then how do they know one way or the other whether or not anyone else is missing? Because .. not all missing persons are reported, either.

What they're doing looks risky. After all, if there's two people, one of them has fallen. If it's not a fallen person, he's strangely dragging a very heavy bag. So, I think the sheriff should identify and locate them. Certainly seems the family should try, too. Find out what was going on here.

The news reports have been very inaccurate and conflicting. In the latest, they're saying she was last seen at 3PM. However, I read that the 3PM witness was actually at noon and that this report was initially incorrect. If that's true, would this 1:30 PM video be the last known "sighting" of Sam Sayers?

If you take a screen shot of the closer view and then zoom in, it def looks like what Sam was reportedly wearing, hat, poles, backpack... And the other couple looks like someone crawling behind another person. Suppose that was just that hiker's "safe" version of climbing uphill in snow? Depending on how steep a climb it is, I've actually used my hands in this type of position to get uphill, though mostly with rocky landscape, not snow. The conversation of the couple in the lower frame is interesting about "going up there."

 

[Aero_Rising]

Further in the distance, ahead of her, and closer to the boulders, is a man crossing the snow with either a heavy bag or another person who seems to have fallen. I think it's another person, if you look at it closely a few times (but I have terrible eyes for this kind of detail. I give those drone viewers a hats-off).

It's definitely another person crawling. You can see them moving when it zooms in.

 

[FlossyMay]

It's definitely another person crawling. You can see them moving when it zooms in.

It looked like they fell to me because I could swear the other person turned to look just as the camera caught them, but maybe that's just my mind filling in blanks.

 

[North American Blue Jay]

If you take a screen shot of the closer view and then zoom in, it def looks like what Sam was reportedly wearing, hat, poles, backpack... And the other couple looks like someone crawling behind another person. Suppose that was just that hiker's "safe" version of climbing uphill in snow? Depending on how steep a climb it is, I've actually used my hands in this type of position to get uphill, though mostly with rocky landscape, not snow. The conversation of the couple in the lower frame is interesting about "going up there."

Yes, I read that the two people in the lower frame had already been to the summit. So they were on their way down.

I think it's probably Sayers, too. She's wearing a sunhat, not the wool beanie, but her partner reported she had looked at a hiker's sunhat in a store, but he didn't know that she bought it. So I guess she had both hats.

It doesn't look that steep, but it certainly looks slippery. And maybe it's steeper than it appears from the video angle.

If it's two people (and it does seem that way when you watch it a few times), the person seems to have fallen without poles and perhaps grabbing on to the other person's leg. The person standing seems to have grabbed him or her with one arm and is kind of dragging them. The person standing looks male.

I'm seeing in the comments section that the photo hiker has another video at 2:00 PM, and some posters think it's Vesper Peak, but it's not because he's so close to Sperry (he also posted he didn't go to Vesper Peak summit). He's still in that vicinity but a little higher up. (It's dry on the Vesper Peak summit, not snowy as in this video.) But in this video, it shows how it probably is a lot steeper than you might think. How anyone gets up that without poles is a mystery to me (or how they even get up it by crawling).

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10214738366006028

Sayers and the other two are not in this video, but it seems to imply that the photographer might have seen where they went next. So someone should probably ask him what he saw them do after he took the 1:30 video.

I'm pretty sure that what the photographer is sitting on is basically that pile of boulders they were heading towards, which may be what they call the Vesper Sperry saddle. It's a length of boulders, with snow and ice that runs between Vesper Peak and Sperry.

 

[Suglo]

Deleted.

 

[Suglo]

Yes, I read that the two people in the lower frame had already been to the summit. So they were on their way down.

I think it's probably Sayers, too. She's wearing a sunhat, not the wool beanie, but her partner reported she had looked at a hiker's sunhat in a store, but he didn't know that she bought it. So I guess she had both hats.

It doesn't look that steep, but it certainly looks slippery. And maybe it's steeper than it appears from the video angle.

If it's two people (and it does seem that way when you watch it a few times), the person seems to have fallen without poles and perhaps grabbing on to the other person's leg. The person standing seems to have grabbed him or her with one arm and is kind of dragging them. The person standing looks male.

I'm seeing in the comments section that the photo hiker has another video at 2:00 PM, and some posters think it's Vesper Peak, but it's not because he's so close to Sperry (he also posted he didn't go to Vesper Peak summit). He's still in that vicinity but a little higher up. (It's dry on the Vesper Peak summit, not snowy as in this video.) But in this video, it shows how it probably is a lot steeper than you might think. How anyone gets up that without poles is a mystery to me (or how they even get up it by crawling).

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10214738366006028

Sayers and the other two are not in this video, but it seems to imply that the photographer might have seen where they went next. So someone should probably ask him what he saw them do after he took the 1:30 video.

I'm pretty sure that what the photographer is sitting on is basically that pile of boulders they were heading towards, which may be what they call the Vesper Sperry saddle. It's a length of boulders, with snow and ice that runs between Vesper Peak and Sperry.

This is a great video. Actually can feel how steep it is. It also makes me wonder if Sam tried to glissade down and went over an edge and is laying under shrubs where neither helos nor drones can see her. I was following the missing case of the Canadian hiker (Jeff Freiheit) in the Alps this month. They used SAR on the ground, dogs, drones and helicopters yet none of them found him until his mother and search volunteers did a meticulous search of the area he was last seen at. They found him at the bottom of a cliff under brush. The official SAR had searched that area but came up empty. That’s why I think they should start where she was seen last and go from there. My bet is that she is not far from the peak on the south side. I hope she is found this weekend. There are going to be a lot of hikers up on that mountain due to the holiday so hopefully one of them spots her.

This is Jeff Freheit’s thread

Presumed Located - GERMANY - Jeff Freiheit, 32, Canadian hiker missing in Alps, Bad Tölz, 2 Aug 2018

 

[Phantasma2624]

I'm not too clear on the forum rules for linking (being a newbie - so excuse me if this breaks a rule - because I'm understanding there is some material you can't link) but .. this is the video in question:

Jared Middleton

Sayers' mother and partner say that it's her at the very beginning in the distance, leaning against a rock. I've seen some close-up stills and it certainly seems to be a taller woman (Sayers was reported as 5'8".) She has poles and she is crossing this snow field towards those boulders connecting to Sperry (another mountain peak that people climb).

Further in the distance, ahead of her, and closer to the boulders, is a man crossing the snow with either a heavy bag or another person who seems to have fallen. I think it's another person, if you look at it closely a few times (but I have terrible eyes for this kind of detail. I give those drone viewers a hats-off).

The person who posted the video time stamps it at 1:30 PM. Sayers was reported first at Vesper Peak summit at noon by multiple witnesses. As far as I know (and I could be wrong), no one has identified the hiker or hikers ahead of Sayers.

My understanding is, this isn't the trail to Vesper Peak (though some probably can get there this way if they're seeking an arduous challenge). The hiker who took and posted the video never made it the summit. He seems to have taken a wrong turn and wound up in front of this snow field. He thought he had to cross the snow field to get to the summit, so he decided this was far enough. Then he took this 360 degree shot of the beautiful scenery and, so it happens, filmed Sayers and this other person or persons .. doing something together.

Anyway, if they haven't identified these other hikers, then how do they know one way or the other whether or not anyone else is missing? Because .. not all missing persons are reported, either.

What they're doing looks risky. After all, if there's two people, one of them has fallen. If it's not a fallen person, he's strangely dragging a very heavy bag. So, I think the sheriff should identify and locate them. Certainly seems the family should try, too. Find out what was going on here.

The news reports have been very inaccurate and conflicting. In the latest, they're saying she was last seen at 3PM. However, I read that the 3PM witness was actually at noon and that this report was initially incorrect. If that's true, would this 1:30 PM video be the last known "sighting" of Sam Sayers?

Samantha is actually very petite. Her mother has said this in several videos. She also refers to Samantha as being small. As such, I wouldn’t think she is 5’8”.

Also, they have two log books. The summit book, and the entrance/exit book. If the names of people are on both of those, then it’s likely that the people made it up and down the mountain fine. We don’t have any information about who the police have interviewed, so it’s possible those people have been identified and have spoken to the police, and they don’t have any information.

The police originally said that an eyewitness had lunch with her around noon at the summit. This was later corrected by the police department (who admitted the error in their first press release). They now say the witness saw or spoke with her while he was eating his lunch around 2:30-3:00. He then saw her descend in the wrong direction. So the last confirmed sighting is the witness on the mountain. This witness has not been identified by police publicly.

Yes, totally agree with you about being hounded on social media. I was on a platform (not Facebook) and some FB devotees involved almost ritualistically with this story were just pouncing on me for even discussing it. I have to say, it seemed like some people were kind of irrational in terms of their emotional involvement with the story. So, I can't imagine what public witnesses have probably gone through - and in lieu of tens of thousands of story followers.

Nevertheless, the family is in such a desperate situation with time ticking by on this young woman's life, in the wilderness, we're betting. They have some resources and I think the mother reported that they're hiring a private investigator, so yes, it's probably best to proceed in that manner first if they have the names of these witnesses. But .. if they didn't have such resources, I wouldn't blame them for posting photos of the public record, either - and asking if people knew where certain people were if they hadn't come forward. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm guessing they'd have the legal right because it's public domain.

On the other hand, I'm not sure that you have the right on a public lands trail not to help another hiker in trouble. And certainly, I would assert you have a moral responsibility, if not legal. This is the wilderness. If you see someone fall, for example - or you're doing something with another hiker and they fall - you have a responsibility to report and seek help. If you don't, and you're doing something with them - and then leave - aren't you kind of like a hit and run driver? And even if you weren't doing something with the other hiker at the time? But simply saw this happen - or came across the hiker? Don't you think you have a responsibility to immediately leave the area to find help - or one person in your group leaves while you stay with them? Your day-off is over, basically. A higher responsibility steps in, like it or not.

Personally, I don't *get* people hiking that day not contacting the sheriff's office (unless they just didn't hear about it). I understand if they don't want to go public or contact the family, but they could easily talk to the sheriff's office privately.

If it were me, I would do all three because listening to Sayers' mom is so heartbreaking - what that family is going through. It would mean so much to her to have a witness contact here with any information. And even if you think your information is so insignificant - you never know - it might help authorities tie some key facts together in order to figure out what happened and find her. My guess, too ... if you decide to contact the family, it's probably in your own best interests to just go public on social media too. It won't be fun in a lot of ways, but this woman's life is more important than some temporary problems on social media, and, since you don't know how together a family is going to be under such stressful circumstances, a public record is probably best. For some people, if they're contacting the sheriff's office, they might want a public record, too. Someone once told me that going public can be the best protection, sometimes, in spite of its drawbacks.

I'm not clear why you're sure the sheriff's office has the registry. Like I posted, a woman who hiked within a few days of Sayers posted that the registry was missing. Though she might have meant the summit registry. The trail is more remote. And certainly the parks dept people aren't very regularly heading up to the summit themselves? Maybe the registries aren't maintained well. Besides which, not everyone signs.

Still, it would be good if the family could get a copy if it exists. It would be good to piece together everyone who was there that day, to the extent it's possible. Speak to each witness about everyone and anyone they saw - and when and where.

What you are talking about are Duty to a Rescue laws. Generally, these laws only apply in certain circumstances. For example, if you had a heart attack in front of a doctor, they are obligated by law to treat you with reasonable care. In some states, like Washington, they also extend this to civilians, but if and only if, someone sees someone else in peril. This means that unless someone saw Samantha fall (unlikely), they have no obligation to come forward and tell the police anything.

I agree that coming forward to the police would be the right thing to do and the moral thing to do, even if they just had a little information, but there are probably lots of people on that trail that didn’t see anything or don’t remember seeing anything. All of them would have signed that book. By releasing it to the public, 20,000 arm chair warriors could invade their social media begging them for help, or accusing them of something. Also, there’s no such thing as speaking to the sheriffs office privately unless they call in an anonymous tip. Even those can usually be traced. Everything the Sheriff’s office does and talks to is public record. Even the witnesses who did come forward could have their names released.

Witnesses that have come forward on their page have been harassed so much that they have shut down their pages, see previous posts. Not all the people are telling them negative stuff, but even requests for help or comments from 20,000 people is a lot. So coming forward on social media likely isn’t better.

Hiking registries are well maintained. That is how they keep track of who is where on the mountain. All visitors must sign in, sometimes with ID, must sign at the summit, and then must sign out. This is how they know Samantha made it to the summit and then didn’t leave the mountain. This would be the best lead the police may have had for witnesses, so that is why I’m sure they have it. Also her mother indicated that they have it as well in one of her videos. Remember that they also investigated foul play, and quite frankly that’s still an option.

Finally, “temporary problems on social media” can be devastating. Just look at the woman who had her identity exposed for flirting with a man on a plane. They can be doxxed, stalked, or threatened. If someone decides that they have done something, they could be defamed, lose employment, etc. This may or may not happen, but it is why the family should turn over the information to a PI who can find these people appropriately.

I agree that Samantha’s life is precious. But we can’t just ruin the lives or life of other innocent people.

 

[i'm someone]

respectfully snipped for space

On a final note, it's not really an insurance thing, and I hope the police are not being so short-sighted to be territorial. Instead, these groups rely heavily on the police department. If they do anything to strain that relationship, that will hurt them. By no means do I think the police have told any group no. Likely, Samantha's family doesn't want to wait for the sheriff's department to say yes. I think that this is an important distinction.

Oh, it's an insurance thing. The police department has to invite the search and rescue groups, otherwise the liability has to be placed upon those who self deploy. They are all operating under the policies of their insurers. As with health insurance, if you have policies that discourage any behavior that could lead to a claim, this leads to inaction by policy-holders. Yes, they make that choice. But sometimes it's not feasible to gamble everything without regard to insurance companies possible non-payout. I work with health insurers all day. Nowhere else in the business world is there more of an industry that can make billions of dollars for doing nothing. We live in a world of "But will the insurance company pay?" "Does the insurance company cover it?" "Who's insurance policy is responsible?". People's fear of being completely destroyed by an action on their part leads to inaction. In this case, the fear of liability leads to a stand still, even though these search and rescue operations probably pay huge sums of money to cover themselves. When one insures themselves specifically for a certain outcome, the insurance company should just pay any claim that comes from the behavior. JMO.

 

[Phantasma2624]

Oh, it's an insurance thing. The police department has to invite the search and rescue groups, otherwise the liability has to be placed upon those who self deploy. They are all operating under the policies of their insurers. As with health insurance, if you have policies that discourage any behavior that could lead to a claim, this leads to inaction by policy-holders. Yes, they make that choice. But sometimes it's not feasible to gamble everything without regard to insurance companies possible non-payout. I work with health insurers all day. Nowhere else in the business world is there more of an industry that can make billions of dollars for doing nothing. We live in a world of "But will the insurance company pay?" "Does the insurance company cover it?" "Who's insurance policy is responsible?". People's fear of being completely destroyed by an action on their part leads to inaction. In this case, the fear of liability leads to a stand still, even though these search and rescue operations probably pay huge sums of money to cover themselves. When one insures themselves specifically for a certain outcome, the insurance company should just pay any claim that comes from the behavior. JMO.

I didn’t know that. Would the insurance companies cover them if the police said that they could deploy? I’m assuming that this would mean a lot of extra paperwork and time that the family doesn’t have.

 

[North American Blue Jay]

Samantha is actually very petite. Her mother has said this in several videos. She also refers to Samantha as being small. As such, I wouldn’t think she is 5’8”.

Per the missing person poster to contact the Snohomish Sheriff's office, she is, indeed, 5'8". Photo of missing person poster at link:

https://www.heraldnet.com/news/search-suspended-for-vesper-peak-hiker-missing-since-aug-1/

Also, they have two log books. The summit book, and the entrance/exit book.

Yes, I have said as much more than once.

If the names of people are on both of those, then it’s likely that the people made it up and down the mountain fine.

If the names of people are in the registry, unless they have a "sign-out" which is signed, it only indicates that they went in (via the trail registry) and reached the summit (via the summit registry).

It otherwise says nothing about going down and out.

We don’t have any information about who the police have interviewed, so it’s possible those people have been identified and have spoken to the police, and they don’t have any information.

True.

The police originally said that an eyewitness had lunch with her around noon at the summit. This was later corrected by the police department (who admitted the error in their first press release). They now say the witness saw or spoke with her while he was eating his lunch around 2:30-3:00.

I'm pretty sure you have this in reverse. The police dept originally reported this in error around 3 PM and it was later changed to noon. This witness, described as an older man, was also seen at noon by a climber who came up with a climbing group via the North Face - and who spoke with Sayers for about 10 minutes. So .. whether there is a 3 PM witness .. is unclear, as far as I've read.

He then saw her descend in the wrong direction. So the last confirmed sighting is the witness on the mountain. This witness has not been identified by police publicly.

Again, if this is "the older man" who didn't want to be identified, and was later identified as having seen Sayers at noon, not 3ish, then he was not the last witness to see her. This "wrong direction" stuff that initiallly came out in the news, in my opinion, is misleading. A number of hikers head to the west side of Vesper Peak at a slightly lower altitude for better views and angles, depending on what they're looking at. There's also a meadow on the west side where some hikers camp overnight.

What you are talking about are Duty to a Rescue laws. Generally, these laws only apply in certain circumstances. For example, if you had a heart attack in front of a doctor, they are obligated by law to treat you with reasonable care. In some states, like Washington, they also extend this to civilians, but if and only if, someone sees someone else in peril. This means that unless someone saw Samantha fall (unlikely), they have no obligation to come forward and tell the police anything. I agree that coming forward to the police would be the right thing to do and the moral thing to do, even if they just had a little information, but there are probably lots of people on that trail that didn’t see anything or don’t remember seeing anything.

Well, I'm not sure it's necessarily "unlikely" someone saw her fall and didn't report it, and I understand that the authorities and family haven't ruled out anything. And again, just because people think they didn't see anything or don't remember, doesn't mean that they don't have information that could be key for authorities to figure out what happened and where Sayers may be. Anyone who hiked there that day should NOT make such an assumption. They should contact Snohomish County Sheriff's office.

All of them would have signed that book.

That is not true. Not everyone signs these trail registries. No one is at the trail head supervising these registries. Or at the summit.

All of them would have signed that book. By releasing it to the public, 20,000 arm chair warriors could invade their social media begging them for help, or accusing them of something.

Certainly social media can be a problem, but all 20,000 people harassing a witness? That's a huge stretch.

All of them would have signed that book. Also, there’s no such thing as speaking to the sheriffs office privately unless they call in an anonymous tip. Even those can usually be traced. Everything the Sheriff’s office does and talks to is public record. Even the witnesses who did come forward could have their names released.

I'm not clear, myself, how that works, but the Sheriff's office has protected the names of the witnesses who have come forward. For example, this described "older man" with two different lunch times. No one knows who he is. Now, I did hear that the mother is trying to get "public records" and was told they wouldn't be available before mid or late October. So perhaps those are the records she was referring to. But .. in that case, it makes all the more sense for people to just come forward now. What do they think people are going to say about them if it turns out they had information that could have solved the case earlier - and this young woman's life hinged on the case being solved more quickly?

All of them would have signed that book. Witnesses that have come forward on their page have been harassed so much that they have shut down their pages, see previous posts. Not all the people are telling them negative stuff, but even requests for help or comments from 20,000 people is a lot. So coming forward on social media likely isn’t better.

I have read through the read, but believe I missed those posts about specific witnesses who actually shut down their pages. I'm only aware of three sets of witnesses who came forward. Jared Middleton and the climber (and climbing group) who is also on Facebook and spoke with Sayers for 10 minutes at the summit - also a boy scouts group. None of them shut down their pages, as far as I'm aware. And I haven't seen any online harassment let alone comments from anything like "20,000 people."

All of them would have signed that book. Hiking registries are well maintained.

Well, I'm an experienced hiker and I don't know that to be the absolute case.

All of them would have signed that book.That is how they keep track of who is where on the mountain. All visitors must sign in, sometimes with ID, must sign at the summit, and then must sign out.

As I already posted, there is no supervision of the trail or summit registries for Vesper Peak. Anyone could go in without signing. And signing doesn't mean you came out unless there's a sign out.

All of them would have signed that book. This is how they know Samantha made it to the summit and then didn’t leave the mountain.

No, they know she didn't come out because her partner reported her missing to the authorities around 1 AM the following morning.

All of them would have signed that book. This would be the best lead the police may have had for witnesses, so that is why I’m sure they have it.

There has been no official report, to my knowledge, that the police had the registries. The official sheriff's statement said only that they spoke to every witness who voluntarily came forward. Not every witness who signed a registry.

Also her mother indicated that they have it as well in one of her videos.

I did hear her make a statement, but it was rather ambiguous. I don't think it clearly indicated that she had full knowledge of the existence of the registries and their whereabouts. And again, as I posted, there is a Vesper Peak hiker's post clearly stating that a registry or registries were missing. This post was made with an internet time stamp within a few days of Sayers' hike. Absent any statement from the sheriff's office or one of the witnesses saying the registries were there (or the parks dept saying they replaced or checked the registries)- this is the clearest evidence we have regarding registries - and apparently, at least one of the registries wasn't, and maybe both.

All of them would have signed that book. Remember that they also investigated foul play, and quite frankly that’s still an option.

Well, I doubt anyone involved in foul play would have signed a registry, if it were there. Though certainly people don't sign for other reasons, too.

Finally, “temporary problems on social media” can be devastating. Just look at the woman who had her identity exposed for flirting with a man on a plane. They can be doxxed, stalked, or threatened. If someone decides that they have done something, they could be defamed, lose employment, etc. This may or may not happen, but it is why the family should turn over the information to a PI who can find these people appropriately.I agree that Samantha’s life is precious. But we can’t just ruin the lives or life of other innocent people.

But no one is being exposed here for doing anything other than hiking. And whether or not they saw the witness or anyone else hiking. This isn't about ruining innocent people's lives - it's about time being of the essence in finding and saving someone's life.

Certainly it's not easy for some to come forward. But I think you're blowing the consequences out of proportion here. We're not talking about spotting a married man at a nightclub cheating on his wife - taking pictures and posting it on the internet. We're talking about who they saw on the hike and when and where.

And you yourself have pointed out that their information is likely to become public, regardless.

 

[North American Blue Jay]

This is a great video. Actually can feel how steep it is. It also makes me wonder if Sam tried to glissade down and went over an edge and is laying under shrubs where neither helos nor drones can see her. I was following the missing case of the Canadian hiker (Jeff Freiheit) in the Alps this month. They used SAR on the ground, dogs, drones and helicopters yet none of them found him until his mother and search volunteers did a meticulous search of the area he was last seen at. They found him at the bottom of a cliff under brush. The official SAR had searched that area but came up empty. That’s why I think they should start where she was seen last and go from there. My bet is that she is not far from the peak on the south side. I hope she is found this weekend. There are going to be a lot of hikers up on that mountain due to the holiday so hopefully one of them spots her.

This is Jeff Freheit’s thread

Presumed Located - GERMANY - Jeff Freiheit, 32, Canadian hiker missing in Alps, Bad Tölz, 2 Aug 2018

Exactly. I read a little about Jeff Freheit's case and how they tragically found him, but too late, right under their noses.

My hope in this scenario is that her partner knows enough about the area and possibilities around this saddle that they've checked it sufficiently - and many times over. In one of his drone videos, he's sitting on what appears to be a drier portion of the saddle - and facing Sperry almost, it seemed to me, like a confrontation. But he wasn't directing the drone around the area you're referencing. More towards Sperry itself.

I'm thinking that this person who falls in the 1st video (and after having seen the second video with the extent of that slope) - is grabbing the other person's leg or foot - perhaps in absolute fear. And Sayers was about to head up next. And it appears Middleton headed up in the next half hour, himself. Though he would have to describe it.

 

[Phantasma2624]

Per the missing person poster to contact the Snohomish Sheriff's office, she is, indeed, 5'8". Photo of missing person poster at link:

https://www.heraldnet.com/news/search-suspended-for-vesper-peak-hiker-missing-since-aug-1/



Yes, I have said as much more than once.



If the names of people are in the registry, unless they have a "sign-out" which is signed, it only indicates that they went in (via the trail registry) and reached the summit (via the summit registry).

It otherwise says nothing about going down and out.



True.



I'm pretty sure you have this in reverse. The police dept originally reported this in error around 3 PM and it was later changed to noon. This witness, described as an older man, was also seen at noon by a climber who came up with a climbing group via the North Face - and who spoke with Sayers for about 10 minutes. So .. whether there is a 3 PM witness .. is unclear, as far as I've read.



Again, if this is "the older man" who didn't want to be identified, and was later identified as having seen Sayers at noon, not 3ish, then he was not the last witness to see her. This "wrong direction" stuff that initiallly came out in the news, in my opinion, is misleading. A number of hikers head to the west side of Vesper Peak at a slightly lower altitude for better views and angles, depending on what they're looking at. There's also a meadow on the west side where some hikers camp overnight.




Well, I'm not sure it's necessarily "unlikely" someone saw her fall and didn't report it, and I understand that the authorities and family haven't ruled out anything. And again, just because people think they didn't see anything or don't remember, doesn't mean that they don't have information that could be key for authorities to figure out what happened and where Sayers may be. Anyone who hiked there that day should NOT make such an assumption. They should contact Snohomish County Sheriff's office.



That is not true. Not everyone signs these trail registries. No one is at the trail head supervising these registries. Or at the summit.



Certainly social media can be a problem, but all 20,000 people harassing a witness? That's a huge stretch.



I'm not clear, myself, how that works, but the Sheriff's office has protected the names of the witnesses who have come forward. For example, this described "older man" with two different lunch times. No one knows who he is. Now, I did hear that the mother is trying to get "public records" and was told they wouldn't be available before mid or late October. So perhaps those are the records she was referring to. But .. in that case, it makes all the more sense for people to just come forward now. What do they think people are going to say about them if it turns out they had information that could have solved the case earlier - and this young woman's life hinged on the case being solved more quickly?



I have read through the read, but believe I missed those posts about specific witnesses who actually shut down their pages. I'm only aware of three sets of witnesses who came forward. Jared Middleton and the climber (and climbing group) who is also on Facebook and spoke with Sayers for 10 minutes at the summit - also a boy scouts group. None of them shut down their pages, as far as I'm aware. And I haven't seen any online harassment let alone comments from anything like "20,000 people."



Well, I'm an experienced hiker and I don't know that to be the absolute case.



As I already posted, there is no supervision of the trail or summit registries for Vesper Peak. Anyone could go in without signing. And signing doesn't mean you came out unless there's a sign out.



No, they know she didn't come out because her partner reported her missing to the authorities around 1 AM the following morning.




There has been no official report, to my knowledge, that the police had the registries. The official sheriff's statement said only that they spoke to every witness who voluntarily came forward. Not every witness who signed a registry.



I did hear her make a statement, but it was rather ambiguous. I don't think it clearly indicated that she had full knowledge of the existence of the registries and their whereabouts. And again, as I posted, there is a Vesper Peak hiker's post clearly stating that a registry or registries were missing. This post was made with an internet time stamp within a few days of Sayers' hike. Absent any statement from the sheriff's office or one of the witnesses saying the registries were there (or the parks dept saying they replaced or checked the registries)- this is the clearest evidence we have regarding registries - and apparently, at least one of the registries wasn't, and maybe both.




Well, I doubt anyone involved in foul play would have signed a registry, if it were there. Though certainly people don't sign for other reasons, too.




But no one is being exposed here for doing anything other than hiking. And whether or not they saw the witness or anyone else hiking. This isn't about ruining innocent people's lives - it's about time being of the essence in finding and saving someone's life.

Certainly it's not easy for some to come forward. But I think you're blowing the consequences out of proportion here. We're not talking about spotting a married man at a nightclub cheating on his wife - taking pictures and posting it on the internet. We're talking about who they saw on the hike and when and where.

And you yourself have pointed out that their information is likely to become public, regardless.

The mother’s Facebook videos mentioned that there is a sign-in/sign-out process. And that there is a book at the summit of some kind. That is how they know that she didn’t leave the park. I also believe this is how they partially verified the boyfriends timeline. That is also why I’m assuming that the police also have the log books. This would be vital evidence and could help the corroborate any witness accounts.

I don’t put it out of the realm of possibility that someone saw her fall and didn’t report it. But I find it to be unlikely. You would be talking about a real psychopath that would do something like that. Again, not out of the realm of possibility, but I would classify it as less likely than other options like she went off the trail to go to the bathroom and fell. This would also explain why she would have been out of sight.

As for the summit witness, I previously posted an article that had the revised timeline at 3pm. This makes sense because the video has her approaching the summit around 1:30. Before the police said he saw her earlier, but they backtracked after the video came out. This was confirmed by A mod on their Facebook page. Either way, this is a massive failure of their public relations department in communicating a clear timeline for any witnesses.

My concerns for any witnesses that may have already come forward or any people that may have been on the trail that day is that they not be subjected to any kind of harassment, either well intentioned or not. These things can get out of control quite easily. If I hiked there that day, and had my information released, I would be concerned. Hopefully, if it does happen, requests for help will be well recieved and if someone says they don’t know something, they will leave them alone. But all it takes is one person to really cause a problem.

However, I have some genuine concerns more for the eye witness—the older man eating lunch—who saw her. There are people out there who find him suspicious and have even accused him. The mods have generally discouraged or removed such posts from their page, but I worry if they release his name that someone may be tempted to do something to him. He has already given his story to the police, and while a private investigator should interview him again to see if more information can be acquired, I wouldn’t want him to become the focus of any online campaign without any evidence of any wrongdoing.

 

[GraceG]

This is one of many things that make me angry about mediums. With this kind of information, she could be anywhere. And they use this type of behavior to prey on those people who are at their lowest point. Maybe there are ACTUAL mediums out there...I certainly don't know. But every time she talks about the medium, all I can think of is someone preying on this poor woman's emotions and hope for her daughter.

I remember living in Cleveland during the initial days of the The Ariel Castro kidnappings (the three girls that were kidnapped and kept for 10 years by this guy). I remember one medium telling one of the mothers that her daughter "was in the water", only to be found alive years later.

 

[i'm someone]

I didn’t know that. Would the insurance companies cover them if the police said that they could deploy? I’m assuming that this would mean a lot of extra paperwork and time that the family doesn’t have.

The sheriff's office can say, at any time after the formal search, that private search and rescue can now go in as long as they sign a waiver making themselves or the family responsible for any other disasters. If they instead say, we need more search and rescue operations to join us, and it's a formal invitation, the county covers the losses if they happen. There is no way a county budget will allow for that. And now we are skirting the edges of something political, so it's best to stop here and say it's just a lot of different organizations who don't want any liability if something goes wrong. Even though it already has.

 

[i'm someone]

My hope in this scenario is that her partner knows enough about the area and possibilities around this saddle that they've checked it sufficiently - and many times over. In one of his drone videos, he's sitting on what appears to be a drier portion of the saddle - and facing Sperry almost, it seemed to me, like a confrontation. But he wasn't directing the drone around the area you're referencing. More towards Sperry itself.

Respectfully snipped for space. According to the sheriff and several drone operators, there is a dead space where the drones don't work for some reason.

 

[Phantasma2624]

The sheriff's office can say, at any time after the formal search, that private search and rescue can now go in as long as they sign a waiver making themselves or the family responsible for any other disasters. If they instead say, we need more search and rescue operations to join us, and it's a formal invitation, the county covers the losses if they happen. There is no way a county budget will allow for that. And now we are skirting the edges of something political, so it's best to stop here and say it's just a lot of different organizations who don't want any liability if something goes wrong. Even though it already has.

That’s depressing. Samantha’s mother posted a video today that was from last night in which she said that after this is over, she wants to become an advocate for changing policies that prevent more dogs from going out. That seems like something that’s sorely needed.

In the meantime, hopefully with the increased traffic this weekend, someone will find something.