WA WA - Samantha Sayers, 28, Vesper Peak, North Cascades, 1 August 2018

[North American Blue Jay]

The mother’s Facebook videos mentioned that there is a sign-in/sign-out process. And that there is a book at the summit of some kind. That is how they know that she didn’t leave the park. I also believe this is how they partially verified the boyfriends timeline. That is also why I’m assuming that the police also have the log books. This would be vital evidence and could help the corroborate any witness accounts.

Well, I agree it's vital information, although I wouldn't put all faith in everything her mom says, and absent a very clear and unambiguous statement by the Sheriff's office or the parks dept about these registries. You may be correct, but they may also be trying to put pressure on people to come forward absent actual possession of registries for that day.

No doubt her mother is only heartbreakingly motivated by the desire to find her daughter, and find her alive, but frankly, I'm not seeing that she handles all information that well ... and I don't blame her. She's not a professional investigator, she's family, and they're tragically desperate to drive any available information out of the proverbial woodwork (which is why I would personally go public if I were a hiker there - because it's so heartbreaking). But.. for example, you mention the problems faced by this described "older man" shunning publicity. I think the mom expressed trepidation in one of her facebook videos (I've only seen some) about who he was - and this may have fueled some of the rumors about him. Though there was also a Fox reporter, for example, who probably has no background in wilderness hiking (more in entertainment gossip columns?) who ridiculously insinuated he was meeting Sayers at the summit for some kind of tryst.

I don’t put it out of the realm of possibility that someone saw her fall and didn’t report it. But I find it to be unlikely. You would be talking about a real psychopath that would do something like that. Again, not out of the realm of possibility, but I would classify it as less likely than other options like she went off the trail to go to the bathroom and fell. This would also explain why she would have been out of sight.

I totally agree this is likely a more ordinary wilderness disappearance ... she lost the trail going to the bathroom, she fell and had an accident somewhere, she's probably very close to areas they're already searched, etc.

But ... as to psychopaths - I don't want to freak people out - but they're actually more common than what's ordinarily believed. And nowadays, they tend to occur in higher ratios in certain kinds of activities or occupations. I'm sure most people hiking to Vesper Peak just love the outdoors, want to get some exercise and see the beautiful mountain scenery and views. But psychopaths could be easily drawn to these settings, as well, because they thrive on risk. So even though you have a much smaller number of people up there, you might find a psychopath up there, too, and more often than one might think.

Also, I mentioned, earlier, the person I knew many years ago who was abducted from a much more accessible trail, and another woman after her, who was not only abducted and raped, but murdered by him. Well, around that time, I spoke with someone who worked with the police on the second case; he told me that it was unbelievable how many people the police had listed for that rather small, mostly rural area, who they considered capable of committing these crimes. The man who did it was on that initial list - but they had something like 200 names. Now, these people aren't necessarily "psychopaths," which is a very specific category - but it also speaks to any criminal possibilities that are not something to just discount.

But again, don't get me wrong - I agree it's most likely something much more ordinary.

As for the summit witness, I previously posted an article that had the revised timeline at 3pm. This makes sense because the video has her approaching the summit around 1:30. Before the police said he saw her earlier, but they backtracked after the video came out. This was confirmed by A mod on their Facebook page. Either way, this is a massive failure of their public relations department in communicating a clear timeline for any witnesses.

My concerns for any witnesses that may have already come forward or any people that may have been on the trail that day is that they not be subjected to any kind of harassment, either well intentioned or not. These things can get out of control quite easily. If I hiked there that day, and had my information released, I would be concerned. Hopefully, if it does happen, requests for help will be well recieved and if someone says they don’t know something, they will leave them alone. But all it takes is one person to really cause a problem.

However, I have some genuine concerns more for the eye witness—the older man eating lunch—who saw her. There are people out there who find him suspicious and have even accused him. The mods have generally discouraged or removed such posts from their page, but I worry if they release his name that someone may be tempted to do something to him. He has already given his story to the police, and while a private investigator should interview him again to see if more information can be acquired, I wouldn’t want him to become the focus of any online campaign without any evidence of any wrongdoing.

I'm seeing the articles in this case as having been unusually inaccurate, in addition to social media. I'm pretty sure, though, in the Facebook post by the climber - who seems very reliable as a witness, that he reported seeing this older man at the summit at noon . And others have reported having information that the time line was reversed from 3 to noon, not the other way around. Meaning, again, he was NOT the last witness to see Sayers.

Whether or not there was another 3 PM witness, I don't know. I haven't heard about anyone in particular beyond this individual. Or whether he saw her a second time.

I read that the Scouts said they did not see Sayers on their way down. Which supports the theory she is still up there in the wilderness somewhere, along with the phone pings (assuming she still had her phone). This is also a good example as to why "not" seeing someone *is* important information for SAR. Where a witness was, and when - so they know she wasn't there at that time - and can eliminate certain scenarios. It's not air-tight, but it's supporting evidence, along with other supporting evidence. This is why anyone hiking that day shouldn't assume - "Well, I didn't see her or see anything, so why should I bother going forward? I can't offer anything important to this investigation." Yes, they could.

I agree it's unfortunate this older man was maligned, and he certainly has the right not to go on social media or contact the family - in my opinion, he met his responsibilities by contacting the Sheriff - but oddly enough, this also shows the faultiness of the belief that you necessarily protect yourself by not stepping forward publicly - and when, as you pointed out earlier, his name will probably be known at some point. For, when he didn't step forward, people became paranoid and began to imagine all kinds of things about him. But .. assuming the noon timeline is correct, his account is corroborated by the climbers - who report that she just went down from the summit by herself (not "she went down the wrong way," etc - as was dramatically intoned by - not social media - but, a news channel).

I think there's a few places where hikers can take wrong turns and find themselves in a bind of sorts trying to get out of certain areas. I didn't read, however, with any degree of convincing accuracy that someone actually saw her taking any of these wrong turns - or was in a location where they could see it. This older man - unless he saw her again - seems to have seen what the climber saw - she just went down from the summit. This was noon- and by 1:30 she was filmed by Middleton at this snow field. She was not heading to the Vesper Peak summit (although people probably can do it this way). She was heading to this group of boulders than run between Vesper and Sperry, and closer to Sperry. She had already been to the Vesper Peak summit. That's what I'm understanding. The trail to Vesper Peak is a dry walk in the summertime. That's why hikers go there in the summertime. Because you can't just walk up to it during other seasons the way you can during the summer. During summertime, you don't have to traverse some steep mountain of ice and snow and boulders to get there.

I posted earlier a video Middleton took at 2 PM, presumably from the top of these boulders. This is the area she was heading towards - and it is a risky endeavor .. why you see another hiker in the 1:30 PM video slip, fall and grab (perhaps desperately) on to the foot or ankle of another hiker. They were both just ahead of Sayers. That's what she was going to go up. The 2 PM video gives you an idea of how very steep it is.

So, someone needs to speak with Middleton about what he saw next, after he took the 1:30 PM video. And .. exactly where he went next with respect to this boulder saddle. Where he filmed next .. at 2 PM.

 

[Phantasma2624]

No doubt her mother is only heartbreakingly motivated by the desire to find her daughter, and find her alive, but frankly, I'm not seeing that she handles all information that well ... and I don't blame her. She's not a professional investigator, she's family, and they're tragically desperate to drive any available information out of the proverbial woodwork (which is why I would personally go public if I were a hiker there - because it's so heartbreaking). But.. for example, you mention the problems faced by this described "older man" shunning publicity. I think the mom expressed trepidation in one of her facebook videos (I've only seen some) about who he was - and this may have fueled some of the rumors about him. Though there was also a Fox reporter, for example, who probably has no background in wilderness hiking (more in entertainment gossip columns?) who ridiculously insinuated he was meeting Sayers at the summit for some kind of tryst.

I agree. I cannot imagine being in the position her mother is in. The number of thoughts that must be running through her head at this time would drive anyone to the brink. As you point out, her hypothesizing the videos I think has what has fanned the flames of suspicions with those following the page. However, her claims don't have any consistency to them. In other words, in one video she says that she fell, in another she says that maybe she ran off the path to escape someone, etc. I don't think that the witness has shunned publicity. He actually flew up to help with the search early on, but I think the family is frustrated because law enforcement wouldn't allow them to talk to them. I'm not sure that even if he were willing that a conversation would go anywhere if he had it with a family rather than a private investigator. At this point, they are running in circles, because just like the police, there are almost no leads. A good use of their money would be to hire someone who could question witnesses and who has an extensive background in public records.

But ... as to psychopaths - I don't want to freak people out - but they're actually more common than what's ordinarily believed. And nowadays, they tend to occur in higher ratios in certain kinds of activities or occupations. I'm sure most people hiking to Vesper Peak just love the outdoors, want to get some exercise and see the beautiful mountain scenery and views. But psychopaths could be easily drawn to these settings, as well, because they thrive on risk. So even though you have a much smaller number of people up there, you might find a psychopath up there, too, and more often than one might think.

I have heard that the number of serial killers that operate in state parks is astounding. So many people can simply go missing in them with little to no trace. It's almost like the perfect setting to commit a murder without being seen. I agree that she might have fallen victim to someone like this, but as you stated, it's more likely that she fell and hasn't been seen by rescuers. This could be particularly true if she passed away or was too injured to communicate. I hear that the brush is in full bloom there now, and if she were lying down, she could have been hidden somewhere. I remember seeing a story about a person who actually took a picture of a murder victim in a state park, and it wasn't until months later that they actually noticed her in the background and reported it.

I think there's a few places where hikers can take wrong turns and find themselves in a bind of sorts trying to get out of certain areas. I didn't read, however, with any degree of convincing accuracy that someone actually saw her taking any of these wrong turns - or was in a location where they could see it. This older man - unless he saw her again - seems to have seen what the climber saw - she just went down from the summit. This was noon- and by 1:30 she was filmed by Middleton at this snow field. She was not heading to the Vesper Peak summit (although people probably can do it this way). She was heading to this group of boulders than run between Vesper and Sperry, and closer to Sperry. She had already been to the Vesper Peak summit. That's what I'm understanding. The trail to Vesper Peak is a dry walk in the summertime. That's why hikers go there in the summertime. Because you can't just walk up to it during other seasons the way you can during the summer. During summertime, you don't have to traverse some steep mountain of ice and snow and boulders to get there.

The only place I have heard that she "went the wrong way" is from the family. They said many times that the witness's story didn't make sense because "she was heading in the wrong direction", which also helped to fan the flames of suspicions on that witness. It's also so difficult to decide what their timeline is in regard to this witness, because they don't have his sighting of her on their maps (MAPS | Find Sam Sayers), or what direction that he said she was going in. Last I had heard, he saw her going toward the lake, which was why they sent search parties that way. It maybe that this "wrong direction" business has to do with the fact that it looks like the pings are going in one direction, while the witness said she was moving in another. Based on these maps, it's as if they've decided that the witness is wrong, unreliable, or lying, which could be a horrific blow to their search efforts. If it is based solely on cellphone pings, I wouldn't completely write off what he is saying. Pings can also be notoriously unreliable, and I would imagine more so if the area has spotty reception.

Still, no matter what, I think that it is telling that her phone stopped pinging that day. To me, this is indicative of a fall or some kind of impact that would have also destroyed her phone, although it is possible that it simply died. Either way, the phone is no longer responsive. Her family hasn't mentioned if she had a backup charger with her or anything, but based on the gear list, I would assume not, as she clearly was not prepared for an extended hike.

 

[North American Blue Jay]

The only place I have heard that she "went the wrong way" is from the family. They said many times that the witness's story didn't make sense because "she was heading in the wrong direction", which also helped to fan the flames of suspicions on that witness. It's also so difficult to decide what their timeline is in regard to this witness, because they don't have his sighting of her on their maps (MAPS | Find Sam Sayers), or what direction that he said she was going in. Last I had heard, he saw her going toward the lake, which was why they sent search parties that way. It maybe that this "wrong direction" business has to do with the fact that it looks like the pings are going in one direction, while the witness said she was moving in another. Based on these maps, it's as if they've decided that the witness is wrong, unreliable, or lying, which could be a horrific blow to their search efforts. If it is based solely on cellphone pings, I wouldn't completely write off what he is saying. Pings can also be notoriously unreliable, and I would imagine more so if the area has spotty reception.

I read about these possible "wrong turns" on a forum for PNW hikers. Posters who sounded like some of the more experienced locals discussed at least 3 that are reportedly easy mistakes to make. One is an old mine trail that the family had a survival group searching on with respect to its beginning portion (eventually it winds up in a veritable jungle of trees and overgrowth). Another wrong turn initially follows Vesper Stream (rather than crossing it, as the old mine trail does). They reported that the authorities had searched down this area (and I believe they searched some of the lower areas related to the old mine trail too). A third wrong turn takes hikers into Morningstar Basin .. a group of hikers once found themselves lost there and it took them days to get out. I read that a group of volunteers recently went into that area, too. So .. I believe the Sheriff's office, the official and volunteer SAR and the family have been aware of, and searching, these 3 possibilities.

Another possibility I read about - which I don't know if they explored - one group of lost hikers winding up in this lower jungle tangle (from either of the old mine trail or the Vesper Stream channel) .. were eventually found near the trail to the Greiger Lakes (alive, but probably in pretty bad shape given the description - "found.") The reported advantages of being lost in those tangled and steep areas ... lots of water and berries.

Still, no matter what, I think that it is telling that her phone stopped pinging that day. To me, this is indicative of a fall or some kind of impact that would have also destroyed her phone, although it is possible that it simply died. Either way, the phone is no longer responsive. Her family hasn't mentioned if she had a backup charger with her or anything, but based on the gear list, I would assume not, as she clearly was not prepared for an extended hike.

I've wondered about the quality of her phone and how long her battery would normally last. I read (and I don't know if it was reliable information) that they figure her battery eventually went out. Though certainly she could have been initially on the move - lost - and then, suffered an accident or fall, which also damaged the phone.

 

[Phantasma2624]

I've wondered about the quality of her phone and how long her battery would normally last. I read (and I don't know if it was reliable information) that they figure her battery eventually went out. Though certainly she could have been initially on the move - lost - and then, suffered an accident or fall, which also damaged the phone.

I believe her phone was a Samsung Galaxy, but there are no indications of the actual battery life it may have had. It would also depend on whether or not sure was using it at the time. One thing that keeps popping up in my mind is that she never tried to call for help. If her phone was pinging, it would make sense that the call would have at least made it to a tower to be registered, even if it wasn't completed. I would imagine that even an experienced hiker may attempt to call for help if they were hurt or lost, especially if her phone indicated there was reception of any kind. That there was no call for help would indicate to me that there was some kind of sudden incident one way or another and the phone was damaged or lost.

 

[North American Blue Jay]

I believe her phone was a Samsung Galaxy, but there are no indications of the actual battery life it may have had. It would also depend on whether or not sure was using it at the time. One thing that keeps popping up in my mind is that she never tried to call for help. If her phone was pinging, it would make sense that the call would have at least made it to a tower to be registered, even if it wasn't completed. I would imagine that even an experienced hiker may attempt to call for help if they were hurt or lost, especially if her phone indicated there was reception of any kind. That there was no call for help would indicate to me that there was some kind of sudden incident one way or another and the phone was damaged or lost.

Seems you have a clean analysis, here, leaning with a sudden incident.

I've informally (and very unscientifically) queried a bit, here, and the consensus seems to be, 'Yes, I'd try 911 anyway," i.e. "You're out hiking at high altitudes - out of cell reception. You get lost and it's getting late. Would you call 911?"

"Yeah, sure."
"But you're outside cell reception."
"Yeah, so? Why not try anyway? I think I'd try anyway."

Someone with an older model has now told me their battery lasts 2-3 days if you're not doing anything else with it. So she could have gone up there, just leaving her phone on, like a lot of people, reasonably expecting to have a working phone at 6 PM when she was planning to call her partner. She might have done so, too, without having it fully charged or bringing a charger.

 

[zecats]

Well, I agree it's vital information, although I wouldn't put all faith in everything her mom says, and absent a very clear and unambiguous statement by the Sheriff's office or the parks dept about these registries. You may be correct, but they may also be trying to put pressure on people to come forward absent actual possession of registries for that day.

No doubt her mother is only heartbreakingly motivated by the desire to find her daughter, and find her alive, but frankly, I'm not seeing that she handles all information that well ... and I don't blame her. She's not a professional investigator, she's family, and they're tragically desperate to drive any available information out of the proverbial woodwork (which is why I would personally go public if I were a hiker there - because it's so heartbreaking). But.. for example, you mention the problems faced by this described "older man" shunning publicity. I think the mom expressed trepidation in one of her facebook videos (I've only seen some) about who he was - and this may have fueled some of the rumors about him. Though there was also a Fox reporter, for example, who probably has no background in wilderness hiking (more in entertainment gossip columns?) who ridiculously insinuated he was meeting Sayers at the summit for some kind of tryst.



I totally agree this is likely a more ordinary wilderness disappearance ... she lost the trail going to the bathroom, she fell and had an accident somewhere, she's probably very close to areas they're already searched, etc.

But ... as to psychopaths - I don't want to freak people out - but they're actually more common than what's ordinarily believed. And nowadays, they tend to occur in higher ratios in certain kinds of activities or occupations. I'm sure most people hiking to Vesper Peak just love the outdoors, want to get some exercise and see the beautiful mountain scenery and views. But psychopaths could be easily drawn to these settings, as well, because they thrive on risk. So even though you have a much smaller number of people up there, you might find a psychopath up there, too, and more often than one might think.

Also, I mentioned, earlier, the person I knew many years ago who was abducted from a much more accessible trail, and another woman after her, who was not only abducted and raped, but murdered by him. Well, around that time, I spoke with someone who worked with the police on the second case; he told me that it was unbelievable how many people the police had listed for that rather small, mostly rural area, who they considered capable of committing these crimes. The man who did it was on that initial list - but they had something like 200 names. Now, these people aren't necessarily "psychopaths," which is a very specific category - but it also speaks to any criminal possibilities that are not something to just discount.

But again, don't get me wrong - I agree it's most likely something much more ordinary.



I'm seeing the articles in this case as having been unusually inaccurate, in addition to social media. I'm pretty sure, though, in the Facebook post by the climber - who seems very reliable as a witness, that he reported seeing this older man at the summit at noon . And others have reported having information that the time line was reversed from 3 to noon, not the other way around. Meaning, again, he was NOT the last witness to see Sayers.

Whether or not there was another 3 PM witness, I don't know. I haven't heard about anyone in particular beyond this individual. Or whether he saw her a second time.

I read that the Scouts said they did not see Sayers on their way down. Which supports the theory she is still up there in the wilderness somewhere, along with the phone pings (assuming she still had her phone). This is also a good example as to why "not" seeing someone *is* important information for SAR. Where a witness was, and when - so they know she wasn't there at that time - and can eliminate certain scenarios. It's not air-tight, but it's supporting evidence, along with other supporting evidence. This is why anyone hiking that day shouldn't assume - "Well, I didn't see her or see anything, so why should I bother going forward? I can't offer anything important to this investigation." Yes, they could.

I agree it's unfortunate this older man was maligned, and he certainly has the right not to go on social media or contact the family - in my opinion, he met his responsibilities by contacting the Sheriff - but oddly enough, this also shows the faultiness of the belief that you necessarily protect yourself by not stepping forward publicly - and when, as you pointed out earlier, his name will probably be known at some point. For, when he didn't step forward, people became paranoid and began to imagine all kinds of things about him. But .. assuming the noon timeline is correct, his account is corroborated by the climbers - who report that she just went down from the summit by herself (not "she went down the wrong way," etc - as was dramatically intoned by - not social media - but, a news channel).

I think there's a few places where hikers can take wrong turns and find themselves in a bind of sorts trying to get out of certain areas. I didn't read, however, with any degree of convincing accuracy that someone actually saw her taking any of these wrong turns - or was in a location where they could see it. This older man - unless he saw her again - seems to have seen what the climber saw - she just went down from the summit. This was noon- and by 1:30 she was filmed by Middleton at this snow field. She was not heading to the Vesper Peak summit (although people probably can do it this way). She was heading to this group of boulders than run between Vesper and Sperry, and closer to Sperry. She had already been to the Vesper Peak summit. That's what I'm understanding. The trail to Vesper Peak is a dry walk in the summertime. That's why hikers go there in the summertime. Because you can't just walk up to it during other seasons the way you can during the summer. During summertime, you don't have to traverse some steep mountain of ice and snow and boulders to get there.

I posted earlier a video Middleton took at 2 PM, presumably from the top of these boulders. This is the area she was heading towards - and it is a risky endeavor .. why you see another hiker in the 1:30 PM video slip, fall and grab (perhaps desperately) on to the foot or ankle of another hiker. They were both just ahead of Sayers. That's what she was going to go up. The 2 PM video gives you an idea of how very steep it is.

So, someone needs to speak with Middleton about what he saw next, after he took the 1:30 PM video. And .. exactly where he went next with respect to this boulder saddle. Where he filmed next .. at 2 PM.

You have tremendous insight into the environmental and underlying aspects of this case. Thank you for your clear and concise thinking. To me, after seeing the video and reading your points, it seems that she must have arrived at Vesper summit in good time and had extra time to explore the saddle at least. I understand saddles to be a bridge-like area between peaks, so possibly she was attempting to bag Sperry as well, if not at least to get close. She wasn’t expected back down until 6pm and others have stated she could have made that time by heading back around 3. It makes perfect sense to be investigating the saddle area and beyond for Sam and a possible slip and fall scenario.

 

[bradfordsleuth]

Delete.

 

[MntnHiker]

Has anything come out about possible tracking apps she had on her phone? I know there probably wasn't cell reception the entire way, but I think some apps can also work without reception. On the FAQ on her page, when this is asked, they said they are looking into any tracking apps, but I didn't know if more came of that or not.

I agree that it is most likely a wilderness accident. She could have gotten turned around or went off trail to go to the bathroom or had a fall or a number of things could have happened and her body is not visible from the searches they have done.

Although I wouldn't personally rule out 100% some sort of foul play, I feel like there would be some evidence of that, like the two hikers who were shot and killed back in '06. Though it is still unsolved, their bodies were found soon after as they had been left on the trail. To do harm to someone way up in the wilderness--it would not be feasible to take this person back down the trail, so the only option is to leave them in plain view or try to hide them somehow. I just am leaning away from that here IMO.

Most likely she is no longer alive, sadly, but I hope she is recovered soon so her family can try to have some sort of closure. This is just awful. I'm an avid hiker. I hike solo all the time and will never stop doing so. It's sad when tragedy happens out in nature just doing something you love.

 

[PinkPrincessPoop]

That’s depressing. Samantha’s mother posted a video today that was from last night in which she said that after this is over, she wants to become an advocate for changing policies that prevent more dogs from going out. That seems like something that’s sorely needed.

In the meantime, hopefully with the increased traffic this weekend, someone will find something.

You mean she wants more dogs out for SAR? We do have to think about the well-being of dogs too. I am sure they are expensive to have out there.

 

[Elainera]

Someone with an older model has now told me their battery lasts 2-3 days if you're not doing anything else with it. So she could have gone up there, just leaving her phone on, like a lot of people, reasonably expecting to have a working phone at 6 PM when she was planning to call her partner. She might have done so, too, without having it fully charged or bringing a charger.

Respectfully snipped and bbm

This is a good point! It's safe to assume that she would have made sure her phone had enough charge until at least 6pm. So why did the pings stop hours earlier? I can only think it's because something happened shortly after the last ping and the phone got damaged enough to not be able to ping again.

 

[Phantasma2624]

Has anything come out about possible tracking apps she had on her phone? I know there probably wasn't cell reception the entire way, but I think some apps can also work without reception. On the FAQ on her page, when this is asked, they said they are looking into any tracking apps, but I didn't know if more came of that or not.

I agree that it is most likely a wilderness accident. She could have gotten turned around or went off trail to go to the bathroom or had a fall or a number of things could have happened and her body is not visible from the searches they have done.

Although I wouldn't personally rule out 100% some sort of foul play, I feel like there would be some evidence of that, like the two hikers who were shot and killed back in '06. Though it is still unsolved, their bodies were found soon after as they had been left on the trail. To do harm to someone way up in the wilderness--it would not be feasible to take this person back down the trail, so the only option is to leave them in plain view or try to hide them somehow. I just am leaning away from that here IMO.

Most likely she is no longer alive, sadly, but I hope she is recovered soon so her family can try to have some sort of closure. This is just awful. I'm an avid hiker. I hike solo all the time and will never stop doing so. It's sad when tragedy happens out in nature just doing something you love.

There hasn't been any update from the family regarding any information from any apps. There could be many hurdles to this, given that they don't have her phone. For example, if the app data isn't stored on a website for which they have the password, they may need to subpoena the data from the companies themselves. Normally companies won't hand over data without a court order, even if the person is missing. My intuition is that this isn't the family's main focus, as they haven't mentioned it in any updates.

I agree about the foul play. Unless Samantha was taken completely off guard and was immediately neutralized, I would think they would have found a trace of something. That being said, I don't think anything can be ruled out right now.

You mean she wants more dogs out for SAR? We do have to think about the well-being of dogs too. I am sure they are expensive to have out there.

She wants to work on the workman's comp policies that discourage search and rescue operations from self-deploying. As someone mentioned, there are insurance issues when you deploy without getting the police's permission. If they send people up there without permission, etc., and something happens, the organization could be out of pocket a lot of money.

The mother has also mentioned the dogs' training in her posts. The dogs must be able to handle the terrain, otherwise, they will not be able to search effectively or be hurt. I think that this is what the mother is also grappling with. There are only so many dogs that can do mountain terrain searches, but at the same time, many of those organizations likely won't self-deploy.

 

[Phantasma2624]

Respectfully snipped and bbm

This is a good point! It's safe to assume that she would have made sure her phone had enough charge until at least 6pm. So why did the pings stop hours earlier? I can only think it's because something happened shortly after the last ping and the phone got damaged enough to not be able to ping again.

Right! Importantly, this is independent of whether Samantha is/was alive or not. If the phone weren't damaged, it should still be able to ping the towers, as cellphones nowadays do this periodically. So it's possible still that she fell, damaged her phone, and lived for several days (or is still living). It wouldn't surprise me at this point if they found the phone independently of wherever they find her.

 

[North American Blue Jay]

This is just awful. I'm an avid hiker. I hike solo all the time and will never stop doing so. It's sad when tragedy happens out in nature just doing something you love.

[Respectfully shortened to respond to one of the points made]

One of the things this story has brought home for me about wilderness hiking is bringing along one of these Garmin Locator Devices I'm just reading about. The authorities can locate you down to your exact coordinates and one poster reported that he can text with his wife, which gives her peace of mind, and it also allows him to change a pick-up time or location.

 

[North American Blue Jay]

People are discussing pings. I found this reference (link below) in a Huffpost article; the mother said the military pinged Sam Sayers' phone during the first 2 search days, "but nothing else has come up." So her phone seems to have had anywhere from one-two days "charge" beyond her hiking plans.

Massive Search Underway For Missing Seattle Hiker | HuffPost

 

[Phantasma2624]

People are discussing pings. I found this reference (link below) in a Huffpost article; the mother said the military pinged Sam Sayers' phone during the first 2 search days, "but nothing else has come up." So her phone seems to have had anywhere from one-two days "charge" beyond her hiking plans.

Massive Search Underway For Missing Seattle Hiker | HuffPost

I think the two pings that are being referenced are the pings that were made by her phone between 13:44-14:10 hours that are on the maps on the family's website (MAPS | Find Sam Sayers). There was a third ping, but they described that as an "anomaly" and it hasn't been featured in any search materials, unless it is marks as one of the "likely area" markings. It isn't clear to me though that it was the military that pinged the phone based on that article. I read it as, they can ping a phone that's out of service, and (separate point), there are pings they are looking at. Based on what the family has said in their updates, it would seem that the phone stopped working the day that she disappeared, and there were no other pings after that.

EDIT: I just saw the caption on the photo that says that her phone was pinged as of 8/3 (2 days after she went missing) as you said. I apologize for not having seen that. I'm wondering if this is another case of misreported information (by no means the fault of David Lohr, who does exemplary work). Even as I was following the search in real time the family never mentioned that they had pinged her phone several days later. It's unfortunate that their maps do not make this clear. The earliest that the search and rescue teams could have pinged her phone would have been 8/2 (particularly if it was between 13:44-14:10). I still think that it's a little unclear how and when these pings were actually seen or collected, though.

 

[i'm someone]

I think the "wrong way" that a witness spoke of was that she was going down the mountain towards the lake, instead of to her vehicle. I believe this was south. The south was searched by the LE, but there seems to me to be a giant blank area not searched, heavily wooded, and this may or may not be the area that drones do not work. Wonder what's in that area?

 

[i'm someone]

People are discussing pings. I found this reference (link below) in a Huffpost article; the mother said the military pinged Sam Sayers' phone during the first 2 search days, "but nothing else has come up." So her phone seems to have had anywhere from one-two days "charge" beyond her hiking plans.

Massive Search Underway For Missing Seattle Hiker | HuffPost

Unless she dropped it and it broke. I know they are tougher now, but if it falls down a mountain cliff into water or snow, it's pretty much useless.

 

[Phantasma2624]

I think the "wrong way" that a witness spoke of was that she was going down the mountain towards the lake, instead of to her vehicle. I believe this was south. The south was searched by the LE, but there seems to me to be a giant blank area not searched, heavily wooded, and this may or may not be the area that drones do not work. Wonder what's in that area?

Yes. This has been why the family claims she was "going the wrong way". They said that she was supposed to summit and then come back down, and the eyewitness instead said that he saw her going toward Spada (?) Lake.

EDIT FOR CLARITY: I'm not sure if the witness said Vesper or Spada lake. Looking at the maps, it seems Vesper Lake is more likely, as they have already heavily searched that area. This could also be why the family thinks she "went the wrong way", because the cellphone would be moving in the opposite direction of him saying she went to Vesper Lake.

 

[GraceG]

That’s depressing. Samantha’s mother posted a video today that was from last night in which she said that after this is over, she wants to become an advocate for changing policies that prevent more dogs from going out. That seems like something that’s sorely needed.

In the meantime, hopefully with the increased traffic this weekend, someone will find something.

Post long time career - I'm an author. I donate 100% of my sales to animal rescue and Search Dog Foundation (in CA). Few of the dogs from the SDF’s program actually make it out into the field. “For every 100 highly driven, toy-obsessed dogs we think might be perfect for the job, only 10 actually have what it takes,” said Janet Reineck, the foundation’s Development Director. It costs $10,000 to start the process of training these dogs, but over the ensuing months the burnout rate is high. Once taken from the pound and given care and attention, many of the trainees decide they’d rather just be ordinary dogs." So I'm happy to sponsor $10,000 dogs but I learned that having a SAR dog isarduouseous process and not an inexpensive one. Still seeing one of "my" dogs in Nepal after the earthquake was kind of cool.

 

[Phantasma2624]

Post long time career - I'm an author. I donate 100% of my sales to animal rescue and Search Dog Foundation (in CA). Few of the dogs from the SDF’s program actually make it out into the field. “For every 100 highly driven, toy-obsessed dogs we think might be perfect for the job, only 10 actually have what it takes,” said Janet Reineck, the foundation’s Development Director. It costs $10,000 to start the process of training these dogs, but over the ensuing months the burnout rate is high. Once taken from the pound and given care and attention, many of the trainees decide they’d rather just be ordinary dogs." So I'm happy to sponsor $10,000 dogs but I learned that having a SAR dog isarduouseous process and not an inexpensive one. Still seeing one of "my" dogs in Nepal after the earthquake was kind of cool.

Wow! That's great that you donate your profits to such a good cause. At $10,000 a dog, I can see why some groups would be hesitant to self-deploy even more. Losing or having a dog injured is obviously a great expense, and one that many groups may not be able to take on. It explains why the mother has mostly attracted individual dogs rather than SAR groups to help her at the current moment.