WA WA - Samantha Sayers, 28, Vesper Peak, North Cascades, 1 August 2018

[Suglo]

Facebook comments are like that for every site. They are never in order and appear randomly. It’s frustrating when one wants to read in some sort of chronological order. Hard to follow for sure. And I know people mean well, but the “prayers and hopes and wishes” comments really do throw a cog into the works.

Facebook drives me crazy with their algorithms. I don’t know why they got rid of the option to see posts in actual chronological order instead of based on likes and comments that bump the posts up. I constantly miss important things family, friends and groups post. Don’t even get me started on Instagram. I barely go on there anymore because they did the same thing. They want you to spend hours searching for posts. Nope. Not happening.

 

[sasha17]

Apologies for the OT post, but for those having problems following along in the Facebook group because of issues with the Facebook algorithm sorting, there is a browser extension called "FB Purity" that does various cosmetic things (removes ads, removes clutter, etc.) but it has an option you can turn on to sort things into chronological order. It's not perfect, so it doesn't always get it right but it's still a big improvement over the default behavior. Just search Google for FB Purity. It's the first link. Then follow the instructions on the website to install it.

 

[Suglo]

Apologies for the OT post, but for those having problems following along in the Facebook group because of issues with the Facebook algorithm sorting, there is a browser extension called "FB Purity" that does various cosmetic things (removes ads, removes clutter, etc.) but it has an option you can turn on to sort things into chronological order. It's not perfect, so it doesn't always get it right but it's still a big improvement over the default behavior. Just search Google for FB Purity. It's the first link. Then follow the instructions on the website to install it.

Thank you!!!

 

[Alethea]

I'm an insurance billing person, so I hope you'll forgive me if I don't side with the insurance companies on this point. If the search and rescues have paid exorbitant amounts for liability and worker's comp insurance, then they should just be able to go about doing whatever it is they do and not worry about coverage. That's the whole point of insurance. It is not just to make the insurance company money and then for them to figure out how to never pay out. There is no free money for selling "nothing". Inactivity due to insurance "issues" is definitely changeable, and it should be. Clearly the insurance companies are causing some serious lack of good judgement calls in these settings. moo.

I'm a long time corporate lawyer who deals with companies in risky industries. You get what you pay for with insurance. I'm sure they can purchase private gap coverage for whatever federal workers comp won't cover if they really wanted to. Lloyds of London is famous for insuring incredibly risky and rare industries and situations. Forcing government insurance programs to cover the very risky activity of self-deploying individual dog teams not directed by LE seems off base to me. JMO

 

[zecats]

Apologies for the OT post, but for those having problems following along in the Facebook group because of issues with the Facebook algorithm sorting, there is a browser extension called "FB Purity" that does various cosmetic things (removes ads, removes clutter, etc.) but it has an option you can turn on to sort things into chronological order. It's not perfect, so it doesn't always get it right but it's still a big improvement over the default behavior. Just search Google for FB Purity. It's the first link. Then follow the instructions on the website to install it.

And the Facebook comment settings themselves can now be set to “All” or “New” or “Most relevant.” That helps some.

 

[MsFacetious]

I'm an insurance billing person, so I hope you'll forgive me if I don't side with the insurance companies on this point. If the search and rescues have paid exorbitant amounts for liability and worker's comp insurance, then they should just be able to go about doing whatever it is they do and not worry about coverage. That's the whole point of insurance. It is not just to make the insurance company money and then for them to figure out how to never pay out. There is no free money for selling "nothing". Inactivity due to insurance "issues" is definitely changeable, and it should be. Clearly the insurance companies are causing some serious lack of good judgement calls in these settings. moo.

I don't think it is, I think they are making the right calls. I understand what you are saying if we were talking about equipment here. We are not, we are talking about living creatures. Dogs and humans are the ones at risk here.

It is not fair to demand them to risk their lives to recover Sam's body, regardless of insurance. Especially when her family won't acknowledge that is what they are doing. I'm sure if someone came to them and begged them to please recover her body before winter, it might be different.

However given these particular circumstances I totally understand them not being willing to risk their lives and their dog's lives on this search. It's also more than just insurance issues. You don't want to self deploy and hurt the relationship with local authorities either. Texas Equusearch won't search without LE's blessing.

It's just far more complicated than just insurance, because it's all living creatures in this situation.... rather than a vehicle, or equipment at risk.

 

[AllGrace]

Same.

I had that vibe from just pictures and quotes. But that video this morning. Wow. Just too much that doesn't add up. I don't necessarily believe she is "lost" on the mountain injured by an accident. (MOO MOO MOO)

 

[madambluej]

I had that vibe from just pictures and quotes. But that video this morning. Wow. Just too much that doesn't add up. I don't necessarily believe she is "lost" on the mountain injured by an accident. (MOO MOO MOO)

This is a link to the first interview KD gave on the Ron and Don show out of Seattle.

I've posted this before I believe it is comment #273 on this thread...

Starting @ 6:15. Be sure to listen all the way to the very end.

August 10, 2018 - Hour 3 - The Ron and Don Show - Omny.fm

 

[Timekeeper65]

There were witnesses who saw SS on the day of her disappearance. I realize eyewitness accounts are not reliable but there are several witnesses. KD’s story has remained consistent. In my opinion.

It is my opinion SS is still up there somewhere - yet to be found.

May today be the day.

 

[Satchie]

I don't think it is, I think they are making the right calls. I understand what you are saying if we were talking about equipment here. We are not, we are talking about living creatures. Dogs and humans are the ones at risk here.

It is not fair to demand them to risk their lives to recover Sam's body, regardless of insurance. Especially when her family won't acknowledge that is what they are doing. I'm sure if someone came to them and begged them to please recover her body before winter, it might be different.

However given these particular circumstances I totally understand them not being willing to risk their lives and their dog's lives on this search. It's also more than just insurance issues. You don't want to self deploy and hurt the relationship with local authorities either. Texas Equusearch won't search without LE's blessing.

It's just far more complicated than just insurance, because it's all living creatures in this situation.... rather than a vehicle, or equipment at risk.

I follow some SAR activity here in Canada, and my impression is the organizations and volunteers are there, first and foremost and pretty much exclusively, to save lives. They also take their own health and safety very seriously: they work for years getting their teams and dogs trained so that they're in top shape to respond when the next person gets into trouble. They don't want to jeopardize that next person's rescue by getting too caught up in recovery.

They don't exist to keep looking for a body beyond what they feel is reasonable. And they don't want to have to rescue people who are out looking for bodies.

It's kind of like the fire department: they'll come put out the fire, but they're not going to hang around to help you demolish the wreckage.

 

[zecats]

There were witnesses who saw SS on the day of her disappearance. I realize eyewitness accounts are not reliable but there are several witnesses. KD’s story has remained consistent. In my opinion.

It is my opinion SS is still up there somewhere - yet to be found.

May today be the day.

And video of her hiking around 1:30 up a snowfield.
Jared Middleton

 

[Phantasma2624]

And video of her hiking around 1:30 up a snowfield.
Jared Middleton

And her cell phone pinged from the area that she was in two days after the search. I think all possibilities must remain open, but it would seem more likely to me that she stepped off the trail for whatever reason (selfie or to go to the bathroom), and fell, injuring and possibly killing herself. This is the most likely, and can explain why she didn't use her phone after the first day.

Her mother posted an update today that the Francis Foundation has met with the police department and is in the process of bringing in dogs. I hope that they aren't just using dogs that can help with rescue, but also recovery. She did say, however, that she'll continue to block people who "share their ideas" about what happened to Sam either to her or on the page. I can imagine not wanting that kind of behavior to happen on the Facebook page, and while I think it's likely she has perished, I would certainly not send her mother a message saying that. Still, that at this point she's not even entertaining the possibility doesn't necessarily bode well for their search.

 

[sasha17]

And her cell phone pinged from the area that she was in two days after the search. I think all possibilities must remain open, but it would seem more likely to me that she stepped off the trail for whatever reason (selfie or to go to the bathroom), and fell, injuring and possibly killing herself. This is the most likely, and can explain why she didn't use her phone after the first day.

It's also quite possible she had no signal to use her phone, even if she was physically able to do so. When I hiked in that area last summer, I had no phone signal at all. I know cell phones can still ping towers and that explains why her phone pinged towers a few times but it's likely there wouldn't have been a signal for her to place a phone call or send a text message.

 

[i'm someone]

I'm a long time corporate lawyer who deals with companies in risky industries. You get what you pay for with insurance. I'm sure they can purchase private gap coverage for whatever federal workers comp won't cover if they really wanted to. Lloyds of London is famous for insuring incredibly risky and rare industries and situations. Forcing government insurance programs to cover the very risky activity of self-deploying individual dog teams not directed by LE seems off base to me. JMO

Well, think of all the good that could be done if everyone was not frozen in place worrying about the insurance company's feelings. Or stepping on one or another's jurisdictional toes. For an OT example, during Hurricane Katrina, there were shipments and shipments of supplies just sitting around and no one to distribute them, and finally one woman just started directing people where it should go and actually got it to the places it needed to go. Someone told her she could get "into trouble" for it, but when things need to get moving that's the least of the problems. It's fine to have rules and procedures, but when your rules and procedures are actually canceling out any progress they probably are due for an overhaul. I just think the world has become this passing the buck, not my responsibility, sorry there's nothing we can do-can't help ya kind of place. jmo

 

[Phantasma2624]

It's also quite possible she had no signal to use her phone, even if she was physically able to do so. When I hiked in that area last summer, I had no phone signal at all. I know cell phones can still ping towers and that explains why her phone pinged towers a few times but it's likely there wouldn't have been a signal for her to place a phone call or send a text message.

If her phone could ping towers, then it is likely that if she had tried to call or send an SOS signal that it would have been at least logged by their system (even if it didn't go the whole way through). Any ping whether it goes through or not is registered by cell phone providers. I'm not ruling out the possibility, but I think if she had tried to make a call or anything during that time, it would have shown up, and there would have been a fuss made about it.

 

[sasha17]

If her phone could ping towers, then it is likely that if she had tried to call or send an SOS signal that it would have been at least logged by their system (even if it didn't go the whole way through). Any ping whether it goes through or not is registered by cell phone providers. I'm not ruling out the possibility, but I think if she had tried to make a call or anything during that time, it would have shown up, and there would have been a fuss made about it.

True. I still do wonder about that "anomaly" third ping that was several miles away.

 

[Phantasma2624]

True. I still do wonder about that "anomaly" third ping that was several miles away.

Yeah, I thought that was weird too. I think that they could have ruled it out if the three pings were done in quick succession. That is, if they pinged her phone three times in a row, maybe it pinged once in one location, once next to that location, and once far away (to where she couldn't have traveled within the amount of time of the pinging). This isn't out of the realm of possibilities. When cell towers get busy, they have been known to kick users to the next available tower. In this case, maybe the nearest tower was far away.

 

[kgreg2529]

I can imagine not wanting that kind of behavior to happen on the Facebook page, and while I think it's likely she has perished, I would certainly not send her mother a message saying that. Still, that at this point she's not even entertaining the possibility doesn't necessarily bode well for their search.

Anyone who does that to a family member of a missing person, and I’m sure there are plenty, is just plain cruel.

 

[ChelaKitty]

While I think the most likely scenario is Sam got lost or injured and has since perished, I trust/hope all avenues are, or have been explored by LE. Because she summited the peak does NOT mean she wasn’t met with foul play on the way down or near trailhead/parking lot. Who would have been in a better place to know when she would most likely be descending and nearing trailhead than KD? With enough time she could have been harmed and relocated on the mountain loop outside of any foreseeable search area. We have not seen KD’s timeline verified if it ever was. He was on the mountain the evening of her disappearance and was “searching” for her in the dark with no gear (what experienced hiker does that?) and called LE AFTER his late evening search.

And these things,

* the third ping from another area
* there has been NO TRACE found of Sam or her gear, belongings, etc. and Vesper peak and trail have been searched over and over.
* KD’s birthday video for Sam on mountain top bothers me, too much jubilant behavior (it’s on FB if you haven’t seen it)
* KD’s affect in some of the older videos, seemed to be enjoying the attention a bit too much (narcissist?, he has endless supply of narcissistic supply now with all the followers)
* KD referred to Sam in the past tense very early on. Ron and Don Show is one example.
* what better way to avoid suspicion than to head up the largest search party in local history.

Basically, I watch and read too much true crime...but these are my thoughts and they are just my thoughts and opinions.

 

[Satchie]

Yeah, I thought that was weird too. I think that they could have ruled it out if the three pings were done in quick succession. That is, if they pinged her phone three times in a row, maybe it pinged once in one location, once next to that location, and once far away (to where she couldn't have traveled within the amount of time of the pinging). This isn't out of the realm of possibilities. When cell towers get busy, they have been known to kick users to the next available tower. In this case, maybe the nearest tower was far away.

I'm confused about the pings. Some people are talking about pings recorded after she went missing, and they show her as moving. But it also appears there were pings retrieved from her cell provider, recorded when she was out hiking. For example,

"Cell phone pings were recorded near the summit of Vesper Peak, and an eye-witness had lunch with her at the summit around 12pm" Find Sam Sayers | Resource Center

I'm quite sure LE would have been able to obtain her recent cellphone data as soon as they started looking for her (just to ensure she hadn't returned to her car, for eg).

Pings are more likely to happen when you get to a summit and temporarily connect with a celltower.

The confusion possibly arises out of this quote attributed to Sam's mother:

"A military plane flew over the area during the first two days of the search. Lisa Sayers said they were called in to help locate her daughter’s phone.

“They have the capability to ping a phone that is out of service,” she said. “Because that’s a problem up in mountains. You lose all service. They had two pings that they looked at ... but nothing else has come up."
https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/massive-search-missing-seattle-hiker_us_5b6cbdcde4b0530743c86a33

I can see how it implies the military plane found two pings. I think that would have been very precise info, massively important and reported as such by authorities.

However, it could also be Lisa saying 'The problem with hiking in the mountains is you lose cell service. They (police) obtained her cell data from her provider but they just had two pings (from the day she went missing). They sent a military plane but nothing else has come up.'

I'm not at all sure whether any pings were really recorded after she went missing.