WA WA - Samantha Sayers, 28, Vesper Peak, North Cascades, 1 August 2018

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Growing up in the mountainous part of Washington I follow most if not all of the missing hikers. The amount of effort put into finding Sam has been extraordinary. Comparing it to the search for a tax dodger or criminal is insulting to those in SAR. Those type of "searches" are electronic, and may be no more than a phone or record check once a week as every agent has tons of different cases. It's nothing at all like a 24/7 physical search for a missing hiker. How SAR works - good article. Inside the Art of Backcountry Search and Rescue
Agree. Most Sar people are volunteers and basics are provided through donations.

Plus the school season started back up and some of those volunteers have kids or grandkids that just started back to school 2 weeks ago.

Plus some are college students themselves.

But I do think that each national park should have more open area cameras that could help track which way a person goes before out of camera range.
 
Thank you GraceG, Satchie, and Tigertales for posting the interesting articles. They were very informative. I think everyone feels empathy for Sam and her mother, but the more I learn about SAR, the more dangerous and all-consuming it seems to be. I am grateful people are willing to give so much to help find total strangers.
 
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I was poking around and found this interesting article about going missing on public land. SS’s moms behavior is silmiliar to one of the story’s subjects.

The article also sheds light on resources and jurisdiction. This for reference only and offered as MOO.

How 1,600 People Disappeared on Our Public Lands

Thank you for posting this, tigertales.

From the article:
“The department has taken a beating on Facebook, Websleuths.com, Dateline, and the Chattanooga Times Free Press.“ (BBM)

I admit I was one of those critical of Sheriff Galvez and the Conejos County Sheriff’s Department. As long as Joe was missing, I was also suspicious of his friend, CG, with whom he went for what turned out to be his final run.

In fact, as soon as I read about Sam and the facts of her disappearance, I thought of Joe.

Personally, I believe something very similar to what happened to Joe happened to Sam, and she still hasn’t been found.

A couple of years ago, I was hiking to the top of the Yosemite Falls and almost fell off the trail while taking a selfie. I was completely focused on the phone’s screen when one of my feet began to slip. Fortunately, I was able to regain balance quickly enough, but I couldn’t believe how fast everything happened.

It was during spring break, was a beautiful day, and there were all kinds of people around, but not the exact spot where this happened.

It was one of the scariest experiences of my life, and thinking about it still makes me a bit nauseous.
 
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Agree. Most Sar people are volunteers and basics are provided through donations.

Plus the school season started back up and some of those volunteers have kids or grandkids that just started back to school 2 weeks ago.

Plus some are college students themselves.

But I do think that each national park should have more open area cameras that could help track which way a person goes before out of camera range.
I wondered too about area cameras, and originally did a search online to see if any such cameras existed there. Following this story since very early on, and much time spent going through footage gives lots of just thought time. Pondered why there weren't cameras, but then immediately thought of the freedom and privacy of the wilderness, and the importance of that also. Was thinking of that also in regards to the attempt to change any laws or bureaucracy, red tape in searches, and wondering if that too would someday lead to changes in the privacy of hikers. Just throwing out thoughts. If the red tape was relaxed, would it potentially someday lead to a law requiring hikers to wear GPS tracking devices while in these circumstances to enable less random searching and less risk for searchers in the event of a mishap? Thus reducing the personal choice, freedom, and privacy that many enjoy?
 
I think if they'd found any kind of clues or evidence about anything at all related to her, they'd have followed up. What kind of clues or evidence do you believe they missed finding?

She could have fallen while she was scrambling to a vantage point where she wanted to take a photo. Since her phone seems to have been on while she was hiking, I think the battery would have drained by the time the plane was out searching.
Yes I agree. She might have wanted to explore a bit after she summited. Perhaps why it was mentioned that she went down a different way. It was just to explore a bit. I believe she fell while doing so because she was never seen descending. Jmo
 
I just had an opportunity to sit down and watch the new video from the mother, and wow. I think that the mother needs to sit back and realize that not getting the result you wanted does not mean that an ineffective job was done. I can see now why some people were sending her messages accusing her of holding back the investigation, while I still don't think it was appropriate for them to do so. Some other takeaways:

She said the reason that SAR organizations won't self-deploy is because they won't get workman's comp. This shines a lot of light on what the problem is. First of all, I had assumed that the SAR organizations had insurance that wouldn't cover them unless the police gave their okay. This means that SAR groups may only be able to get insurance that covers their regular expenses, not rescues, meaning that they have to apply for reimbursement from the police's workman's comp if anything happens. This means that if they send volunteers out, it's not an insurance company saying, "No, we won't cover you", it's that they won't have any coverage AT ALL.

It would seem that Samantha's mother would like them to be able to buy or be required to buy workman's comp, but I fear that this will be out of the question for most organizations that have only a limited number of full-time staff and rely mainly on volunteers. The result may be the shuttering of many SAR organizations that are small, not the increase in them being able to search as she hopes.

As for her comments about the IRS/student loan/petty criminal "hunts", this is a reflection of someone who doesn't understand police work. IRS searches are electronic as someone mentioned, because people are easily tracked via SSN. Not paying student loans doesn't get you hunted down, but it does affect your credit. Creditors are actually not allowed to harass you all that much, so again, most effects are electronic. As for "hunts for petty criminals", this pretty much doesn't happen. If they miss court, a warrant is issued and their next contact with the police results in an arrest. There is no hunt. For larger criminal cases, the police also don't "hunt" criminals necessarily. Most of this work falls to bondsmen, who are obligated by their insurers to retrieve inmates that have skipped bail. That is why bounty hunters exist. So there's no hunting. However, most of this can be wrapped up once you realize she is comparing apples and oranges. It's not like if Samantha doesn't file her taxes this year, the IRS is going to send some helicopters up to search for her.

Whenever someone falls back to the argument of "you have no proof", I think that this shows how weak of an argument they actually have. We actually do have proof she is not alive in that she has not been seen for more than month, and has not self-rescued. With each passing day, that gets stronger and stronger. I kind of wish that their Facebook page would stop giving her reinforcement. That might give her some time to process her anger.

However, I also think that we have to keep in mind this is someone who is grieving for the sudden loss of a child, even if that child does turn up alive at the end of this. She is going to be angry and irrational, just like anyone is with death (hence the stages of grief). This is also why we see her swinging from one end of the spectrum to the other. She goes from denial to anger because there are people who are making her question her denial. I also see her start to mention some bargaining between her and God. All of these emotions go together, and to those of us who are not feeling what she is feeling, it's upsetting, because we all want Sam to come home. I don't think it will be until winter sets in that she will start to believe the inevitable if they haven't found her and at this point, depression usually sets in. I'm not sure she'll ever move past this without a body, but eventually she'll start to try and find some realistic solutions (called Testing), and then acceptance. Some parents never get there. I know parents who have left their kids' rooms exactly as they were when they died, because they could never understand that they were never coming back, even though they knew they were dead (e.g., suicide, car crash, etc.).

Obviously, KD and Carlton Carr are running the search, and I'm sure that they know that this is likely a recovery mission. They've mentioned this already. I just hope they find her before the weather forces them off the mountain for the season, which would be in about 3 weeks.
 
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I just had an opportunity to sit down and watch the new video from the mother, and wow. I think that the mother needs to sit back and realize that not getting the result you wanted does not mean that an ineffective job was done. I can see now why some people were sending her messages accusing her of holding back the investigation, while I still don't think it was appropriate for them to do so. Some other takeaways:

She said the reason that SAR organizations won't self-deploy is because they won't get workman's comp. This shines a lot of light on what the problem is. First of all, I had assumed that the SAR organizations had insurance that wouldn't cover them unless the police gave their okay. This means that SAR groups may only be able to get insurance that covers their regular expenses, not rescues, meaning that they have to apply for reimbursement from the police's workman's comp if anything happens. This means that if they send volunteers out, it's not an insurance company saying, "No, we won't cover you", it's that they won't have any coverage AT ALL.

It would seem that Samantha's mother would like them to be able to buy or be required to buy workman's comp, but I fear that this will be out of the question for most organizations that have only a limited number of full-time staff and rely mainly on volunteers. The result may be the shuttering of many SAR organizations that are small, not the increase in them being able to search as she hopes.

As for her comments about the IRS/student loan/petty criminal "hunts", this is a reflection of someone who doesn't understand police work. IRS searches are electronic as someone mentioned, because people are easily tracked via SSN. Not paying student loans doesn't get you hunted down, but it does affect your credit. Creditors are actually not allowed to harass you all that much, so again, most effects are electronic. As for "hunts for petty criminals", this pretty much doesn't happen. If they miss court, a warrant is issued and their next contact with the police results in an arrest. There is no hunt. For larger criminal cases, the police also don't "hunt" criminals necessarily. Most of this work falls to bondsmen, who are obligated by their insurers to retrieve inmates that have skipped bail. That is why bounty hunters exist. So there's no hunting. However, most of this can be wrapped up once you realize she is comparing apples and oranges. It's not like if Samantha doesn't file her taxes this year, the IRS is going to send some helicopters up to search for her.

Whenever someone falls back to the argument of "you have no proof", I think that this shows how weak of an argument they actually have. We actually do have proof she is not alive in that she has not been seen for more than month, and has not self-rescued. With each passing day, that gets stronger and stronger. I kind of wish that their Facebook page would stop giving her reinforcement. That might give her some time to process her anger.

However, I also think that we have to keep in mind this is someone who is grieving for the sudden loss of a child, even if that child does turn up alive at the end of this. She is going to be angry and irrational, just like anyone is with death (hence the stages of grief). This is also why we see her swinging from one end of the spectrum to the other. She goes from denial to anger because there are people who are making her question her denial. I also see her start to mention some bargaining between her and God. All of these emotions go together, and to those of us who are not feeling what she is feeling, it's upsetting, because we all want Sam to come home. I don't think it will be until winter sets in that she will start to believe the inevitable if they haven't found her and at this point, depression usually sets in. I'm not sure she'll ever move past this without a body, but eventually she'll start to try and find some realistic solutions (called Testing), and then acceptance. Some parents never get there. I know parents who have left their kids' rooms exactly as they were when they died, because they could never understand that they were never coming back, even though they knew they were dead (e.g., suicide, car crash, etc.).

Obviously, KD and Carlton Carr are running the search, and I'm sure that they know that this is likely a recovery mission. They've mentioned this already. I just hope they find her before the weather forces them off the mountain for the season, which would be in about 3 weeks.
Very much agree with you that if Sam were alive she would have self rescued or at least signaled searchers sometime in all this time she has been missing.
 
Does anyone have a screenshot of her last being filmed or on recording that day?
 
Oh no y'all......I have said in 2-3 posts I fear for her mothers mental health and stability.

Her latest FB post. She was in the shower and heard Samantha say BEEHIVE. She interpreted that to mean her favorite artist Beyonce and she now wants Beyonce to supply the resources.

I KID YOU NOT. I cannot make this stuff up.
 
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Oh no y'all......I have said in 2-3 posts I fear from her mothers mental health and stability.

Her latest FB post. She was in the shower and heard Samantha say BEEHIVE. She interpreted that to mean her favorite artist Beyonce and she now wants Beyonce to supply the resources.

I KID YOU NOT. I cannot make this stuff up.
Oh dear. I really am speechless at this point.
 
Oh no y'all......I have said in 2-3 posts I fear from her mothers mental health and stability.

Her latest FB post. She was in the shower and heard Samantha say BEEHIVE. She interpreted that to mean her favorite artist Beyonce and she now wants Beyonce to supply the resources.

I KID YOU NOT. I cannot make this stuff up.

Yes, that part seemed unhinged to me too. I think this is a reflection of how strained the family's resources are. They also just posted they need camping gear to be loaned to them, because they cannot afford to purchase their own without spending what is left of their money. I doubt she's going to get a bunch of people to tweet enough at Beyonce that she's going to suddenly swoop in and run a rescue mission. Especially when you consider that doing that would mean that she would send in her own consultants who wouldn't run it like her mother ways (i.e., Sam's alive).

To be honest, this is why many SAR groups refuse to work with families. They are too involved for their own good. In the book I love to mention on this thread (No Stone Unturned), the man who founded NecroSearch International detailed that after seeing a family waiting to see them find their loved one for hours only to find out he was not where they were searching, he would no longer work at the request of any family. Many groups have this same purview for this reason. If they work with the police, the police are their clients, not a desperate family.

As for the phantom voice thing, I don't think it's the weirdest thing in the world. When my father passed away suddenly from pancreatic cancer, I used to be standing in my house and would hear him scream my name. It was so vivid it was like he was standing next to me. Sometimes it would wake me out of a dead sleep. I assumed that this was my addled brain trying to process everything under stress.

Has anyone heard anything about what rescue person "did damage to" the family's search effort? It sounded like whatever it was, they were referring it to the police. I wonder if it was the dog handler (I know the dog is named Raven). One moment she was there and then next, the family hasn't said a word.
 
Oh no y'all......I have said in 2-3 posts I fear from her mothers mental health and stability.

Her latest FB post. She was in the shower and heard Samantha say BEEHIVE. She interpreted that to mean her favorite artist Beyonce and she now wants Beyonce to supply the resources.

I KID YOU NOT. I cannot make this stuff up.

Just to expand on this for clarity. They have a new FB site up in the hopes of organizing a twitter campaign that is so large, it will trend. The mother heard Sam singing in her head and felt that Sam wanted her to add Beyoncé to the campaign. Meaning she should receive one of the tweets. This came up because they are brainstorming who to add to the tweet lists; famous people who hike, or have influence, different mountaineering organizations, etc.

The stress the mom is under is evident, but in this case it's not exactly "I want Beyoncé to supply the resources to find Sam".
 
Just to expand on this for clarity. They have a new FB site up in the hopes of organizing a twitter campaign that is so large, it will trend. The mother heard Sam singing in her head and felt that Sam wanted her to add Beyoncé to the campaign. Meaning she should receive one of the tweets. This came up because they are brainstorming who to add to the tweet lists; famous people who hike, or have influence, different mountaineering organizations, etc.

The stress the mom is under is evident, but in this case it's not exactly "I want Beyoncé to supply the resources to find Sam".
Her FB post specifically says "Beyonce has power...maybe she can help us with resources to scour that mountain"
 
Also, Wings of Mercy has some new info up on FB. Reading between the lines, they might not be welcome by mom and team...they said they are almost set up to start their own search, without banning anyone who wants to help, and using climbers and military.
 
Her FB post specifically says "Beyonce has power...maybe she can help us with resources to scour that mountain"

Exactly. I think that the idea is that they create a campaign so big that it cannot be ignored and then they can get people to donate through it. Perhaps even Beyoncé herself. I do not particularly think this will be an effective strategy. Celebrities like her get hundreds and thousands of requests per day from these campaigns. Even if 30,000 people tweeted, I am not sure it would get her attention that badly. Their only hope is to reach other fans who might feel bad enough to donate more money.
 
Also, Wings of Mercy has some new info up on FB. Reading between the lines, they might not be welcome by mom and team...they said they are almost set up to start their own search, without banning anyone who wants to help, and using climbers and military.

This is the part that is so unfortunate to me. There are a good number of people who still want to help, but the mother has blocked them from doing so because of any perceived slight. Anyone who questions whether Samantha is alive is banned from the group. This is even in the comments. She even throws around words like "troll" against some of these people. Meanwhile, they keep searching the drone footage without any expectation of reward. One woman who has like laser eyes with what she sees posts in this group to ask others who are not blocked to help her get access to the Google sheet to post what she finds, because the mother has blocked her. These are the people who should be rewarded for their efforts to find Samantha.

It's also interesting to me that they are saying that they are starting their own search. I can only assume this is because they are at odds with Samantha's family either because they don't think she is alive, or due to their behavior on social media.

All of this is happening while the mother pleads for more resources on Facebook and wants to start a twitter campaign using Beyonce. I am very surprised and not surprised at the same time that there has been such turnover in this case. Find Me came and went. The dog handler I think is gone. Now these drone operators. Jon Francis doesn't seem to be gearing up to do anything special, although this could change. It's mind boggling.
 
So KD himself has called this a recovery mission. I mean NO disrespect toward SS's mom, who is obviously going through the motions of grieving, but he seems to be the only one in touch with reality at this point, sadly.
 
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