WA WA - Samantha Sayers, 28, Vesper Peak, North Cascades, 1 August 2018

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Also, Wings of Mercy has some new info up on FB. Reading between the lines, they might not be welcome by mom and team...they said they are almost set up to start their own search, without banning anyone who wants to help, and using climbers and military.
The mom mentioned someone in the search party had done damage to the search. Steve Monchak posted some of his views on Wings of Mercy publicly which many of us read. My bet is that she found out about it and was talking about him. (There could be others too. I’m sure he’s not the only one that feels this is a recovery mission) That man has given his hours, days and weeks to helping them find Sam. I don’t have words to express how much I admire his tenacity.

I hope they do set up their own search. There’s only a limited amount of time left before they all will have no choice but to go back to their regular lives. This is so sad. If she’s not careful, she is going to alienate anyone and everyone who can actually help find her daughter.
 
The mom mentioned someone in the search party had done damage to the search. Steve Monchak posted some of his views on Wings of Mercy publicly which many of us read. My bet is that she found out about it and was talking about him. (There could be others too. I’m sure he’s not the only one that feels this is a recovery mission) That man has given his hours, days and weeks to helping them find Sam. I don’t have words to express how much I admire his tenacity.

I hope they do set up their own search. There’s only a limited amount of time left before they all will have no choice but to go back to their regular lives. This is so sad. If she’s not careful, she is going to alienate anyone and everyone who can actually help find her daughter.

When she talked about the damage done though, she made it sounds like it was fraud or something. She said that they had turned it over to the authorities. Saying that Samantha is dead isn't really a fraud. The only thing I could think of is maybe he took some money or equipment or something, but I don't think that makes much sense either. He's always had the drone...

That's why I was leaning towards it either being the Find Me organization or the SAR dog handler that they had out there. Those are the only two organizations/people that have seemingly all but disappeared. Still, I don't think anyone outside of the family knows exactly what is going on. It seemed clear the mother wanted to handle it through the police.
 
When she talked about the damage done though, she made it sounds like it was fraud or something. She said that they had turned it over to the authorities. Saying that Samantha is dead isn't really a fraud. The only thing I could think of is maybe he took some money or equipment or something, but I don't think that makes much sense either. He's always had the drone...

That's why I was leaning towards it either being the Find Me organization or the SAR dog handler that they had out there. Those are the only two organizations/people that have seemingly all but disappeared. Still, I don't think anyone outside of the family knows exactly what is going on. It seemed clear the mother wanted to handle it through the police.
True but I’m not really trusting her judgment these days. What she calls fraud could be a simple difference of opinions to others. What a mess!
 
True but I’m not really trusting her judgment these days. What she calls fraud could be a simple difference of opinions to others. What a mess!

I don't want to put words in her mouth, as she never said fraud per say. I just assumed that there was something like that going on. Unfortunately, it would surprise me if the family didn't fall victim to someone who didn't have their best intentions at heart. Scammers can descend on these families in their most vulnerable moment, so it can really be anyone who decided to join the search. It's so sad, especially since they have such few resources already.
 
WS is victim friendly. Mom is a victim; you may discuss what is in MSM about her but do not sleuth her social media and do not make accusatory or derogatory comments about her.
Can you clarify if things from Find Sam Sayers public page on FB can be discussed please? I am quite new and this is a grey area to me that I don’t fully understand. Thank you!!!!

—-wanting to be a rule abiding WS poster
 
Can you clarify if things from Find Sam Sayers public page on FB can be discussed please? I am quite new and this is a grey area to me that I don’t fully understand. Thank you!!!!

—-wanting to be a rule abiding WS poster

You may post what an Admin of the page has to say, but you can't post comments by other members of that FB page.

Excerpt from The Rules: Social Media - Facebook, Twitter, etc.
Public Pages
Mainstream Media (MSM)
Law Enforcement (LE)
Group support pages for victims, such as "Help Find..." and "Justice for...”
Legitimate non-profit organizations who provide assistance and support to victims and their families (e.g., Klass Kids, Texas Equusearch).
  • Links may be used to direct members to a post by the owner or an admin of an approved social media page/profile.
  • Posts by an owner or admin may be copied or quoted. This refers primarly to posts or tweets by MSM reporters, and announcements by law enforcement, the immediate family, or the admin of a group support page.
  • Paraphrasing is okay.
  • ***NOTE: Comments and posts by readers/visitors of these pages are not allowed to be quoted, copied or referenced. Just don’t mention them.
  • Regarding group support pages, i.e., "Help Find..." and "Justice for...”: If at any time the WS staff determines a group support page to be inappropriate, a notice will be posted in the thread stating that the page is no longer approved.
Please be sure to read the whole page to understand how we deal with social media. Any further questions, please ask them off-thread by private messaging to Mods/Admin.
 
As a retired SAR K9 Handler in WA State, I have followed this case from day one with immense fascination as well as gut wrenching sadness for this Mom who has shared her pain so publicly. I have innumerable friends/SAR partners who have worked diligently on this search. I can honestly say I have never seen so much time, effort and compassion given to any single missing person by Law Enforcement, SAR Volunteers from all over the state of WA, Air Ops, Drone support, Marines, Air Force, US Navy NAS, US Air Force, just to name a few resources that were called out. I can understand it doesn't help bring anyone full resolution or understanding to the family of the missing person, but what I can't understand is if any negative thoughts are expressed that after 3 weeks of intensive search it was "Called off" and that somehow is a negative. I could be wrong....it appeared that might be the case. JMO

Even after that call off, the Sheriff's office shared all their reports, mapping, records and data with the new non professional resources and tried to help and support their ongoing efforts. That a huge accomplishment in itself because someone had to take the time to compile all of that date so it made sense to pass along. Big job.

Here are some interesting facts to note: Search in Rescue in WA State comes under the department of the military Search and Rescue Operations.
Search and Rescue (SAR) Program | Washington State Military Department
To be a part of this, SAR Volunteers are required to comply with all rules, regulation and training requirements. All of its totally volunteer costing the average SAR person 2-8K dollars a year of their own money. In return the state allows them to respond to call outs and covers them with liability and medical coverage for themselves, their equipment and the K9's, AS LONG as they deploy under what is called a mission number requested by the local Sheriff's office and authorized by the State of WA. If a person doesn't follow the rules and self deploys a lot more is at stake besides what is now being referred to as "Workman's Compensation".

Heres some food for thought about what is actually at stake:
~What if you break a legs leaving the house? or are hurt driving to the mission? fall off a cliff, get injured and require extensive medical care that can run into thousands if not hundreds of thousands who is going to pay for your medical bills?
~What if your K9 gets critically injured. SAR volunteers pay for their own K9's, training, gear, and its said a good certified SAR K9 is worth 20K plus dollars. Who will pay?
~What if the family decides they are unhappy with the SAR efforts and want to sue for compensation (happens) and your name is brought up in the law suit? Who will pay?
~What if the call you go on turns into a criminal investigation and LE is not involved so anything that is found is outside the jurisdiction of any case?
These are just a few thoughts to share that might help someone understand the reason for not self deploying without a mission number as much as someone might desperately want to. If a SAR volunteer deploys with a mission number these are some of the things that they are protected from.

Last but not least, Law Enforcement is NOT required to use SAR volunteers. It requires management on their part, a designated liaison officer, the ability to keep and build a relationship so the teams are mission ready when called. Go outside that very specific and well thought out system and guess what, you CAN be fired as a volunteer, loose your integrity with your team mates as well as your reputation. All the time, efforts, financial, personal and emotional investments are gone. Not a happy thought. IMO, there is a reason the recent K9 handler that was up there with the dog Raven was not named or spoken of. Not that I know specifically.

Just my thoughts and opinions, for what it might be worth.
 
As a retired SAR K9 Handler in WA State, I have followed this case from day one with immense fascination as well as gut wrenching sadness for this Mom who has shared her pain so publicly. I have innumerable friends/SAR partners who have worked diligently on this search. I can honestly say I have never seen so much time, effort and compassion given to any single missing person by Law Enforcement, SAR Volunteers from all over the state of WA, Air Ops, Drone support, Marines, Air Force, US Navy NAS, US Air Force, just to name a few resources that were called out. I can understand it doesn't help bring anyone full resolution or understanding to the family of the missing person, but what I can't understand is if any negative thoughts are expressed that after 3 weeks of intensive search it was "Called off" and that somehow is a negative. I could be wrong....it appeared that might be the case. JMO

Even after that call off, the Sheriff's office shared all their reports, mapping, records and data with the new non professional resources and tried to help and support their ongoing efforts. That a huge accomplishment in itself because someone had to take the time to compile all of that date so it made sense to pass along. Big job.

Here are some interesting facts to note: Search in Rescue in WA State comes under the department of the military Search and Rescue Operations.
Search and Rescue (SAR) Program | Washington State Military Department

Just my thoughts and opinions, for what it might be worth.
Respectfully snipped for brevity.
I trained for SAR in Colorado, now in WA and cannot agree and support the validity of this post enough. Nailed it. Thank you!
 
@Onebest Thank you for sharing your deep knowledge on the subject, it's very helpful to our understanding. It sounds like there are many factors that go into the decisions that we're not always privy to. Thank you for your service!
 
When I worked for SAR in Colorado, it was part of our agreement that we were covered by the county Sheriff’s office insurance for rescues and training. On an official deployment, we were covered by their policy for anything that occurred “in the line of duty”. If we were to self deploy, there would be no coverage of any kind. FYI.
 
SAR also has restrictions. I recall that we were not allowed underground in any way. We had to call in fire or someone else to deal with culverts and mines etc. The rules are surprising. I remember not being allowed into an urban culvert under a road during a city search and having to call for fire. Not that this is relevant to Sam, but understand it is not cut and dried where searchers are allowed.
 
As a retired SAR K9 Handler in WA State, I have followed this case from day one with immense fascination as well as gut wrenching sadness for this Mom who has shared her pain so publicly. I have innumerable friends/SAR partners who have worked diligently on this search. I can honestly say I have never seen so much time, effort and compassion given to any single missing person by Law Enforcement, SAR Volunteers from all over the state of WA, Air Ops, Drone support, Marines, Air Force, US Navy NAS, US Air Force, just to name a few resources that were called out. I can understand it doesn't help bring anyone full resolution or understanding to the family of the missing person, but what I can't understand is if any negative thoughts are expressed that after 3 weeks of intensive search it was "Called off" and that somehow is a negative. I could be wrong....it appeared that might be the case. JMO

Even after that call off, the Sheriff's office shared all their reports, mapping, records and data with the new non professional resources and tried to help and support their ongoing efforts. That a huge accomplishment in itself because someone had to take the time to compile all of that date so it made sense to pass along. Big job.

Here are some interesting facts to note: Search in Rescue in WA State comes under the department of the military Search and Rescue Operations.
Search and Rescue (SAR) Program | Washington State Military Department
To be a part of this, SAR Volunteers are required to comply with all rules, regulation and training requirements. All of its totally volunteer costing the average SAR person 2-8K dollars a year of their own money. In return the state allows them to respond to call outs and covers them with liability and medical coverage for themselves, their equipment and the K9's, AS LONG as they deploy under what is called a mission number requested by the local Sheriff's office and authorized by the State of WA. If a person doesn't follow the rules and self deploys a lot more is at stake besides what is now being referred to as "Workman's Compensation".

Heres some food for thought about what is actually at stake:
~What if you break a legs leaving the house? or are hurt driving to the mission? fall off a cliff, get injured and require extensive medical care that can run into thousands if not hundreds of thousands who is going to pay for your medical bills?
~What if your K9 gets critically injured. SAR volunteers pay for their own K9's, training, gear, and its said a good certified SAR K9 is worth 20K plus dollars. Who will pay?
~What if the family decides they are unhappy with the SAR efforts and want to sue for compensation (happens) and your name is brought up in the law suit? Who will pay?
~What if the call you go on turns into a criminal investigation and LE is not involved so anything that is found is outside the jurisdiction of any case?
These are just a few thoughts to share that might help someone understand the reason for not self deploying without a mission number as much as someone might desperately want to. If a SAR volunteer deploys with a mission number these are some of the things that they are protected from.

Last but not least, Law Enforcement is NOT required to use SAR volunteers. It requires management on their part, a designated liaison officer, the ability to keep and build a relationship so the teams are mission ready when called. Go outside that very specific and well thought out system and guess what, you CAN be fired as a volunteer, loose your integrity with your team mates as well as your reputation. All the time, efforts, financial, personal and emotional investments are gone. Not a happy thought. IMO, there is a reason the recent K9 handler that was up there with the dog Raven was not named or spoken of. Not that I know specifically.

Just my thoughts and opinions, for what it might be worth.

Thank you for sharing this! I couldn't imagine a police department having to, by law, cover SAR workers insurance or forcing a small organization to buy this sort of coverage by themselves. I'm sure it's very expensive, and that's why they rely on the state. It also would beg the question of how long people would be expecting them to pay under revisions to the law, such as those proposed by Samantha's mother. I don't think the state budget is big enough to cover SAR operations for every missing person for months on end. The price would be enormous.

I didn't even think of the family suing. That must also be a big factor. While if they get a mission number and approval, this would be covered by the state, if not, that means that individual searchers could be held liable. The same with the criminal elements. A case could not hold up in court if errors were made. All of these are incredibly important points.

I think the last part is also important. These groups depend on their relationships with the police department in a number of ways. Breaking that bond seems to be a taboo as you mentioned. This is independent of the cost, and likely also explains why the family has had so much trouble getting dogs out.

I'm curious though, do you have any thoughts for their suggestion that a group use this as a "training" exercise? Does that actually make any difference in these cases?
 
Thank you for sharing this! I couldn't imagine a police department having to, by law, cover SAR workers insurance or forcing a small organization to buy this sort of coverage by themselves. I'm sure it's very expensive, and that's why they rely on the state. It also would beg the question of how long people would be expecting them to pay under revisions to the law, such as those proposed by Samantha's mother. I don't think the state budget is big enough to cover SAR operations for every missing person for months on end. The price would be enormous.

I didn't even think of the family suing. That must also be a big factor. While if they get a mission number and approval, this would be covered by the state, if not, that means that individual searchers could be held liable. The same with the criminal elements. A case could not hold up in court if errors were made. All of these are incredibly important points.

I think the last part is also important. These groups depend on their relationships with the police department in a number of ways. Breaking that bond seems to be a taboo as you mentioned. This is independent of the cost, and likely also explains why the family has had so much trouble getting dogs out.

I'm curious though, do you have any thoughts for their suggestion that a group use this as a "training" exercise? Does that actually make any difference in these cases?
No way I’m going out with dogs or horses or just my boots without insurance. The liability is sadly too great. And that’s the world we have.
 
No way I’m going out with dogs or horses or just my boots without insurance. The liability is sadly too great. And that’s the world we have.

Unfortunately, it sounds like the family would need a major overhaul of our medical system to get people out there. Right now, with the way our medical bills can go, I'm surprised they even got one person to help.
 
No way I’m going out with dogs or horses or just my boots without insurance. The liability is sadly too great. And that’s the world we have.

And even aside from the litigation risk, what if someone is seriously injured? Their family is supposed to just deal with it on their own? I think it's reasonable to have seasoned LE personnel who have extensive experience in risk management in all types of investigations and operations make the decisions about who can and when to search. Acting at the direction of a victim's family can put people at unacceptable levels of risk. Those decisions would be understandably emotional, not based on evidence and a careful consideration of the elements.
 
Thank you for sharing this! I couldn't imagine a police department having to, by law, cover SAR workers insurance or forcing a small organization to buy this sort of coverage by themselves. I'm sure it's very expensive, and that's why they rely on the state. It also would beg the question of how long people would be expecting them to pay under revisions to the law, such as those proposed by Samantha's mother. I don't think the state budget is big enough to cover SAR operations for every missing person for months on end. The price would be enormous.

I didn't even think of the family suing. That must also be a big factor. While if they get a mission number and approval, this would be covered by the state, if not, that means that individual searchers could be held liable. The same with the criminal elements. A case could not hold up in court if errors were made. All of these are incredibly important points.

I think the last part is also important. These groups depend on their relationships with the police department in a number of ways. Breaking that bond seems to be a taboo as you mentioned. This is independent of the cost, and likely also explains why the family has had so much trouble getting dogs out.

I'm curious though, do you have any thoughts for their suggestion that a group use this as a "training" exercise? Does that actually make any difference in these cases?
I’m actually shocked you didn’t think of the family suing. It happens, and unfortunately every SAR volunteer knows this. We’re volunteers. We do this because we want to. We still get sued. (Or at least we might be included as liable).
 
I’m actually shocked you didn’t think of the family suing. It happens, and unfortunately every SAR volunteer knows this. We’re volunteers. We do this because we want to. We still get sued.

I suppose that I thought that if someone went out there on their own and volunteered their time that the family couldn't sue because they weren't out anything. For example, the woman that they had helping them stayed at a house free of charge, and I don't think they covered any of her expenses. So I was kind of at a loss for what they could sue for. That being said, I guess I could see that happening in other circumstances were maybe more expenses were covered.
 
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