WA WA - Samantha Sayers, 28, Vesper Peak, North Cascades, 1 August 2018

[i'm someone]

As much as I sympathize with Samantha’s family, I agree that these resources could be put to better use. But the money would never be raised for those purposes, unfortunately. Plenty of mothers, including the elderly mother of Stephanie Warner in my signature, have had to come to grips with their loss without a major search to find a body.

It seems like they did some major searching for over a year for Stephanie. People are calling for an end to this search after a month. No one even knows if she is on the mountain. Foul play is not off the table. I'll be reading through Stephanie's WS pages, that is what needs to happen to keep a focus on a case. Every case deserves a full investigation and search, no matter who the person is. I know of several cases in my own state that got virtually no investigation, and they've gone cold. The more people hear about a case, the more they can care about the missing/murdered. It's not a contest. It's not fun. It's just a necessary thing. This case is way too new to let it go. If we did that with every missing person, no one would ever be found.

 

[iamtm]

Yesterday searchers found the body of a woman who went missing on Mt Hood in Oregon almost 2 weeks ago. Today authorities revealed that they strongly suspect that she was killed by a cougar, in the first-ever fatal cougar attack in the wild in Oregon. This occurred 2 miles off a busy highway.

Woman found dead near Mount Hood was killed in suspected cougar attack

 

[iamtm]

holy moly

 

[Oregonmama]

Press conf...injuries consistent with a cougar attack

Missing hiker found dead near Mount Hood killed by cougar, deputies say

 

[Oregonmama]

We are invading their space. We have seen many of them up there while camping. We have had a very hot summer and experiencing drought conditions this year. They are hungry for anything.

 

[Sillybilly]

Do not discuss the social media pages of individuals who are neither victim or suspect, MSM or LE, or an official missing persons page.

Read Websleuths TOS aka The Rules: Social Media - Facebook, Twitter, etc.

excerpt from the above rules:

Not Allowed

Social media pages that fall in the following categories are OFF LIMITS.

Family members of either a victim or a suspect
Friends of either a victim or a suspect
Most any other individual

Don't link to these pages, nor make reference to information you find on them.

 

[Iclimer]

An animal attack! This is one reason I never go alone onto any trail. RIP!

Why would anyone summit Vesper Peak alone? Based on the pictures it appears to be a dangerous terrain to go it alone.

 

[MsFacetious]

The “wow” factor for me is what if all the resources being donated and poured into this (likely) recovery mission (post the massive 3-week search by LE & SAR) went to other missing folks that have a better chance statistically of being rescued? Wouldn’t that be grand? Or to the families with small children in the local area that are sleeping in their cars? Or any number of people and groups that are hurting and CAN be helped. It’s hurting my heart on so many levels. And yes I feel for the mom, deeply. As long as she can keep the search going she doesn’t have to face what is likely the worst loss one could experience.

This is what I'm struggling with. All of the living people who could be using these resources right now.
Would SAM want all these resources going to continue this search for her body? I don't know Sam. Did she have any causes that she was especially passionate about?
I would never have anyone looking for me anyway, but if I did I would prefer the resources go to people who could still be helped. I would want the resources to go to one of the causes I feel so strongly about.

It's just heartbreaking to see all of this when we know there are missing people out there that are alive, waiting to be rescued.

 

[Alethea]

The 49th Parallel (one of the non-profits helping with the search) posted a video this morning on their Facebook page addressing the concerns about the military background/history of their team leader. If you go to the organization's public Facebook page, it's right there at the top. To summarize, he has no military background but he knows people that were in the military.

Is 49th Parallel even a registered non-profit? The FB page says "Survival YouTube Channel."

 

[Oregonmama]

An animal attack! This is one reason I never go alone onto any trail. RIP!

Why would anyone summit Vesper Peak alone? Based on the pictures it appears to be a dangerous terrain to go it alone.

Not really. Ppl here in the PNW love their outdoors and consider it their living room. I have been there and it is beautiful to hike.

 

[sasha17]

Is 49th Parallel even a registered non-profit? The FB page says "Survival YouTube Channel."

Hmm, I'm not sure about their actual registration and I don't know how to verify that. Maybe someone else does? (Although I'm not sure if we could post about what is found as far as verification, or if that would be off limits here.)

Editing my own post to add: It looks like you can use this site to search for registration of nonprofits. I'm not posting any results here but figure people can do their own searches: Fast, easy and free charity check | CharityCheck101.org

 

[sasha17]

Yes indeed. I noticed. Question, does anyone know if gas stations in Seattle sell flashlights?

Yes, they do.

 

[Firehorse17]

This has been the strangest missing persons case I've ever followed. <modsnipped - against TOS>

 

[i'm someone]

Thank you for your hard work reviewing footage to find signs of Sam and for your compassion for her family's situation.

I like the concept of a pro SAR team being easily deployed. I don't see how a SAR team can deploy without insurance, but perhaps the federal government could back insurance or there could be an effort to self-insure with government backing. With government support, policymakers do have to weigh the cost-benefit of subsidizing SAR vs many other uses of government funding. In this case and others, however, I'm not convinced that insurance is the main barrier. Instead, there are likely stark disagreements between how SAR pros and the family think the search efforts should be focused. What role do you think family members should play in a SAR search / deployment?

I also think that if you set up a crackerjack SAR team(s), they shouldn't wait until preliminary efforts fail. We all want the missing person to be found alive. The reason SAR pros and others know it would be a wonderful miracle if Sam were to be found alive is the standard wilderness survival Rule of 3s:

• You can survive three minutes of severe bleeding, without breathable air (unconsciousness generally occurs), or in icy water.
• You can survive three hours in a harsh environment (extreme heat or cold).
• You can survive three days without drinkable water.
• You can survive three weeks without edible food.

I'd like to see more effort to educate people before they go missing -- especially people who do love to hike, climb and spend time in wilderness and backcountry areas. They have experience and are by no means novices, but they tend to overestimate their abilities and underestimate their risk. I used to be one of those people. I was fit enough to climb mountains and backpack for two weeks at a time, but it took a few misadventures and a few wise friends to make me learn to be better prepared (and now I need better fitness to go on those adventures again!). People who choose to enter natural areas need to take more responsibility for their safety and survival.

The best SAR rescue is one that never needs to happen.

Any time there is a usual and customary procedure that has failures, it always leaves room for improvement. I think there needs to be more personal engagement in all matters that deal with humans and living beings in general. I know a lot of people in health care say if they were emotionally invested they couldn't do their job, and that doesn't mean they should not be doing it, just that other people may do the job just as well or better because they are invested. Every organized human resource effort has a multitude of jobs that endanger no one. If someone is not willing to put their life on the line in a life-on-the-line situation, then they should have a position where that is unlikely. No one in these situations who helps instead of hindering is unimportant.

Now, on to the hindering part. Anyone who hinders progress in a life or death situation needs to get the heck out of the way. This includes companies, governments and individuals who for no other reason but SOP and heaven forbid, the almighty dollar, forgo helping and go so far as hindering others who would do so as altruistically as possible. We need, in all aspects of society, the best people for a job, reward them for doing that job, and supporting one another while it is done. I KNOW this is not the way things are. That much is obvious. The only people who are discontented with other people going above and beyond are people who worry they will also have to do that. To them I say, don't worry. You do your thing. But stay the heck out of the way of everyone else. At the very least.

And lastly, there is food on the mountain, there is clean and plentiful water, there is shelter, material to make shelter, and anything is possible. There are people who continuously hike the entire PCT and other state spanning ranges who live out there almost 24/7 with nothing more than ultralight gear. Did Sam make mistakes? I say yes, she did. That is clear. Should she somehow be routed to the cold case file after a month for it? Not in my opinion. And of course that is moo.

 

[sasha17]

This 70 year old was last night/this morning. It came across the scanner yesterday. Was he found safely?

He was found safe this afternoon!
Snohomish Sheriff on Twitter

 

[Iclimer]

This has been the strangest missing persons case I've ever followed. <modsnipped - against TOS>

High strangeness.

 

[Phantasma2624]

Hopefully this will answer any of the above questions. Shared in it's entirety with permission from KD:
NEW PRESS RELEASE ATTACHED

The Mission to Find Sam Sayers Continues As Family Turns to Professional Help and Search Takes Another Turn.

After 41 days, the search for Sam Sayers, a seasoned hiker who went missing in the cascades on August 1st, is showing no signs of slowing. New Search Operation Managers are being brought in and the family is moving towards establishing a forward operating base in the mountains so operations can continue uninhibited.

Commanding Warrant Officer CW5 Kevin Dares, the father of Sam Sayers fiancé, will be flying in to oversee search operations and perform duties as Commander of the Forward Operating Base. CW5 Dares is currently the Command Chief Warrant Officer for the Louisiana National Guard and has over 35 years of military experience. A Black Hawk Pilot with extensive SAR experience, he has operated in multiple hurricanes, including Katrina. He also oversaw air search and rescues operations during the 2016 flooding of central Louisiana. With multiple deployments including Iraq, during Operation Iraqi Freedom and the Horn of Africa with Operation Enduring Freedom, CW5 Dares is expected to bring operations into a more professional and organized structure.

At the recommendation of the Jon Francis Foundation, and under Chief Dares, Carlton Carr will perform as Search Operations Manager. The family believes that with over 28 yrs of experience hiking and mountaineering in the Cascades, Carlton’s expertise will be instrumental in finding Sam. Carlton feels he was born for this. His father, Carlton Carr Sr., a SAR (Search And Rescue) leader and manager in Colorado and Utah, first enrolled him in survival school at age 11. Carlton Jr. is a Life/Eagle Scout from the Uinta District, has TCCC and wilderness first aid training, is FEMA certified, first aid certified and has managed and directed multiple private search missions including being a key first responder in the SGT. Eric Massey rescue.

Resources continue to be gathered and plans are in motion to establish an operating base within the mountains. HiLine Helicopters will be flying in canvas tents, wood burning stoves, satellite phones, communications equipment, inverter generators and more to Lake Elan so that crews can establish a permanent forward operating base.

Tim Sorenson of CRT and Drone Operations manager for the “Find Sam Sayers Team” is excited for the possibilities moving forward. He says that what they are accomplishing here is breaking new ground and drone operations have the potential to add an effective new weapon to the arsenal of SAR. With generators on site the searchers are looking to continue with the operations set forth by the Jon Francis Foundation. The generators give the teams, led by Sorenson, the ability to compile an enormous amount of footage daily that can be uploaded with remote internet connections.

The Snohomish Sheriffs Department continues to scout the mountain with helicopters for any new signs and the family would like to thank all SAR and the Snohomish Sheriff’s Department for their continued efforts and help throughout this trying time.

The search teams need qualified Mountaineers and certified HRD and Cross Trained K9 Teams who are capable of handling the terrain and environmental challenges of Vesper Peak.

To Volunteer your services and be a part of the continued mission, please contact the administrative team at
FindSamSayers.infobox@gmail.com

I'm so glad that they seem to have organized. The time is running out for them to find her before the snow makes the area inaccessible. It's also good to know that the police are also still flying as able. Based on the information provided yesterday by SAR people though, I still think they are going to have issues getting SAR dogs and volunteers to the mountain.

Well, maybe this example will be the change that comes for finding missing people. There sometimes needs to be a large profile case to make changes and improve procedures. New technology and social media gives a whole new option for volunteering, and when LE has it's "hands tied" for whatever reason, private search and rescue needs to be able to get in there in an organized fashion and quickly. I have a feeling that one of the results from this case will be that a private SAR with no fear of insurance policy rules or any other red tape will be created and they can then be called in when all else has failed.

It's not that their hands are tied. It's that they would have to basically accept responsibility for every volunteer that goes up onto the mountain. A websleuths user with a lot of SAR experience shared last night that they would need to get a mission number, even for training, and would need to be covered by the department's workman's comp.

While such an organization may be admirable, it sounds like they would have a lot of trouble attracting volunteers. While it's nice to say, "I don't care about insurance. I can about finding X", I find it difficult to believe that they would be so forgiving once they or their $50,000 dog are injured. The sheer amount of any medical bills would be enough to force anyone into bankruptcy in this country unfortunately, and even if they had good health insurance, this wouldn't cover the months of recovery time needed to recover from a bad accident with no work. Only workman's comp will do that.

If the requirement is that each group buy workman's comp, that's even worse. This would shutter mainly volunteer-based rescues that don't have the income to buy such expensive coverage.

I like the concept of a pro SAR team being easily deployed. I don't see how a SAR team can deploy without insurance, but perhaps the federal government could back insurance or there could be an effort to self-insure with government backing. With government support, policymakers do have to weigh the cost-benefit of subsidizing SAR vs many other uses of government funding. In this case and others, however, I'm not convinced that insurance is the main barrier. Instead, there are likely stark disagreements between how SAR pros and the family think the search efforts should be focused. What role do you think family members should play in a SAR search / deployment?

I agree. There is no way they should deploy without insurance. Someone could be hurt out there very badly, and if that person does not have coverage, the medical bills alone (let alone months without work) would ruin someone's life.

As for the government paying for it, I think that while this may be well-intentioned, the government could counter that they already have an SAR group that they are paying for (aka police department, coast guard, etc.) and those police departments also routinely ask volunteer groups to search, and cover them. The issue here is that the government (through the police department) has decided that without further information, they cannot risk the money it would cost them to send someone out. I suppose they could allocate more money to SAR groups, but I'm not sure that solves the issue. What's to stop them from safe-guarding that extra cash in case someone else goes missing?

The unfortunate reality is when it is our loved one, it is never enough. All families want SAR groups to search for their loved ones until they are found, but there isn't enough money or resources in the world to make that happen for everyone. There are many families who got a lot less than Samantha Sayers did with no result, and with no movement on their cases. It's just that with no leads, I don't see the police saying that they will sponsor a search in the near future.

With no way of knowing if someone is deceased when they are missing, why stop looking? If there are people who are not being searched for that you know of that mean something to you, do something about it. Don't disparage others for also looking for their own loved ones. I have no illusions that my family would even look for me themselves ever if I went missing, and many of the WS missing have many people looking for them(which is lucky). And don't confuse funds for this search as being taken from some other cause, because many people who donate to a cause donate to many. If there are issues of US citizens and their children sleeping in cars, call your congress people. It has nothing to do with this case.

I don't think anyone is faulting the family for their search. By no means should they ever stop looking until they bring their daughter home in one way or another. I don't care if they find a pint of her blood on a rock, and it means she's dead. The family should not stop their search.

I also don't think that people are necessarily saying the funds that Samantha's family have raised are taking away from anything. The general idea that I have is that people are saying that if the police use their money to cover volunteers and/or more official searches, then that is taking money out of a pool that is used to help rescue other people. I think that this does need to be a concern for law enforcement. How would you feel if they said that they searched for 6 months for someone, but couldn't search that long for your loved one because their budget had run dry? That they went on for 3 weeks is nothing short of miraculous, and I hope for a time when enough money is allocated so that every missing person gets such attention. However, the fact remains that they have no leads in this case, even after intense searching. They aren't going to spend more important and necessary funds on a fishing expedition when those funds may also be needed later. It goes the same for them to cover all the volunteers that turn out to help. That costs money, and those are also funds they may need later.

Again, when it's our loved one, it never seems like enough, but this is why families don't get to dictate when searches start or end. We need people who look out for the good of the community as well as those who advocate for the individual.

I hope that the family has looked into hiring a victim advocate to help them navigate this process better. One of those would be very helpful.

 

[Phantasma2624]

i watched carr's post the other night and it dawned on me he was high. on it, he was asking BF how many times a day does he brush his teeth. BF said ten times or more a day and hasn't had a cavity in 33 years. carr then starts his "show" - "hey kathy, good to see you joanie, coming at you moose" (i'm using fake names here). he was high and it was awful. i made a comment on another hiking site and the findsamsayers public group on facebook deleted it. along with the video of their "shenanigans and laughter at base cap after a hard day", quoted BF. a giant pile of junkfood garbage is the main feature of the 46 second spot.
in my comment i said they needed to lay off the weed. that it was bad taste and unprofessional. not the time or place to be getting high. carr is now posting on you tube under new findsamsayers mission. i noticed he has another video regarding his resume at one hour long. he still comes across as high.

You should delete this. Accusing people of illegal behavior on websleuths when they have not been identified as suspect in any investigation by the police is against rules.

 

[Thebluecat]

i watched carr's post the other night and it dawned on me he was high. on it, he was asking BF how many times a day does he brush his teeth. BF said ten times or more a day and hasn't had a cavity in 33 years. carr then starts his "show" - "hey kathy, good to see you joanie, coming at you moose" (i'm using fake names here). he was high and it was awful. i made a comment on another hiking site and the findsamsayers public group on facebook deleted it. along with the video of their "shenanigans and laughter at base cap after a hard day", quoted BF. a giant pile of junkfood garbage is the main feature of the 46 second spot.
in my comment i said they needed to lay off the weed. that it was bad taste and unprofessional. not the time or place to be getting high. carr is now posting on you tube under new findsamsayers mission. i noticed he has another video regarding his resume at one hour long. he still comes across as high.

Forgive my blondness - is 49th parallel / Garuda King - Carr ?!?!

 

[Michellesv44]

Recreational marijuana is legal in Washington. It’s pretty much normalized. High or not is irrelevant imo.

 

[sasha17]

Forgive my blondness - is 49th parallel / Garuda King - Carr ?!?!

Yes.