WA WA - Samantha Sayers, 28, Vesper Peak, North Cascades, 1 August 2018

[Phantasma2624]

Recreational marijuana is legal in Washington. It’s pretty much normalized. High or not is irrelevant imo.

Good to know! I still think the mods might have an issue with this though. They've been issuing lots of warning about using social media posts on this page. It's tough to tell what's allowed because so many people are sharing so much info about the search via Facebook only, and not all of them are admins of pages etc. I just don't want the thread to get shut down because the problem is out of control.

 

[Alethea]

I have read the TOS a thousand times and have read WS since the True Crime Carnival days in the early 00s but I do not understand one thing: Are we not allowed to talk about rescue organizations that insert themselves in searches? I do not mean snooping on someone's personal and private FB page but it is unclear to me if talking about 49th Parallel is on or off the table. I think it should be allowed since the official FB group reposts its posts and its an organization that injected itself in the search efforts but I don't know.

 

[Phantasma2624]

I have read the TOS a thousand times and have read WS since the True Crime Carnival days in the early 00s but I do not understand one thing: Are we not allowed to talk about rescue organizations that insert themselves in searches? I do not mean snooping on someone's personal and private FB page but it is unclear to me if talking about 49th Parallel is on or off the table. I think it should be allowed since the official FB group reposts its posts and its an organization that injected itself in the search efforts but I don't know.

I think (THINK being key here) that we are allowed to talk about organizations. However, talking about private individuals like Bud Carr is completely off the table. Therefore, we can talk about what Find Me does, Jon Francis, 49th Parallel, Wings of Mercy etc, but we can't talk about Bud Carr. That is what is so frustrating about this is that the whole thing is being run via social media. It's so hard to tell. But my stance is that saying bad things about anyone personally is against the rules if they haven't been designated as a subject of an official investigation. So we can say that 49th Parallel's searches aren't effective, for example, but we can't say that Bud Carr is something or other.

EDIT: For the record, the mods haven't been so helpful clarifying this. Every time someone has asked, they've literally sent the terms of service again.

 

[carbuff]

I hope if I ever get lost in the mountains (which could happen), nobody risks their life or health trying to find me after it's clear I'm no longer among the living. I hope my family will mourn me and then get on with their lives.

I know other people feel differently. I'm only talking about myself.

 

[Lilibet]

It seems like they did some major searching for over a year for Stephanie. People are calling for an end to this search after a month. No one even knows if she is on the mountain. Foul play is not off the table. I'll be reading through Stephanie's WS pages, that is what needs to happen to keep a focus on a case. Every case deserves a full investigation and search, no matter who the person is. I know of several cases in my own state that got virtually no investigation, and they've gone cold. The more people hear about a case, the more they can care about the missing/murdered. It's not a contest. It's not fun. It's just a necessary thing. This case is way too new to let it go. If we did that with every missing person, no one would ever be found.

Well, I’m not calling for an end to the search for Sam, but just pointing out the reality that not every case gets the attention it deserves. Not every mother gets closure. Of course it’s not a contest. Sam’s family has worked hard and is very fortunate that people care about Sam enough to put their money, time and safety on the line. That isn’t always the case and there isn’t enough money to equalize it except in our dreams. We can wish.

I don’t want to distract from Sam’s case by discussing Stephanie, but no, there was not “major searching for over a year” for Stephanie. Unlike Sam, there was very little community interest or involvement or family publicity. Actually, WSers led the publicity tenaciously and did a tremendous amount of sleuthing (even behind the scenes) that was passed on to the detective. LE led several very focused searches during the first few months and for about two years, and conducted a long investigation, but it was clear after a few months that foul play was likely and prosecution was not possible. It’s not a cold case, but it’s stalled because of reality. If her body is ever found, it will be by accident, as so many are. Her mother may die before that happens. It’s tragic, but it’s reality for many. That doesn’t make it “right,” but it’s a reality that Sam’s mother may have to face at some point, sadly. But I sincerely hope not.

 

[Lilibet]

I hope if I ever get lost in the mountains (which could happen), nobody risks their life or health trying to find me after it's clear I'm no longer among the living. I hope my family will mourn me and then get on with their lives.

I know other people feel differently. I'm only talking about myself.

I feel the same way, Carbuff. Well said.

 

[Onebest]

Forgive my blondness - is 49th parallel / Garuda King - Carr ?!?!

Who is Garuda King - Carr ?

 

[Michellesv44]

Yes, they are all the same person/organization. I think it’s ok to discuss because he’s been named the lead? So it’s not discussing the person BC, it’s discussing his organization and their involvement? It’s not just an individual. Forgive me if I’m wrong.

 

[Phantasma2624]

Yes, they are all the same person/organization. I think it’s ok to discuss because he’s been named the lead? So it’s not discussing the person BC, it’s discussing his organization and their involvement? It’s not just an individual. Forgive me if I’m wrong.

I think it's okay to discuss his updates on the case etc., because that's what's official. I think the issue is when you cross over into personal stuff . To be honest, I've read through the TOS and this is all very confusing. All I know is the mods haven't been too happy with the thread lately, and it seems to come from people talking about people personally and/or commenting on comments made on Facebook pages by other people who aren't admins of those pages. So I think asking and talking about Bud Carr's background is okay and relevant, because he is using his company and his experience to run the search. As you point out Bud Carr IS 49th Parallel. We just can't talk about him personally or accuse him of anything that may defame his character.

Hopefully now that the family has organized themselves, they can start issuing official releases and updates by the same person, detailing their updates, needs, and other important information. That way, we can identify official information and determine whether it is appropriate to discuss or not. The one that they did today was super helpful. Right now, it feels like there are too many cooks in the kitchen with the boyfriend, the mother, and Bud Carr releasing (sometimes different) updates each day.

 

[sasha17]

Yes, they are all the same person/organization. I think it’s ok to discuss because he’s been named the lead? So it’s not discussing the person BC, it’s discussing his organization and their involvement? It’s not just an individual. Forgive me if I’m wrong.

Yes, that's my understanding, too?

Who is Garuda King - Carr ?

Carlton Carr (also called "Bud" and "Garuda King") is the owner/director of the organization 49th Parallel, who the family has appointed as the search operations coordinator, announced in a press release the admins posted on the Facebook group yesterday. (I'm using the word "organization" loosely here.)

 

[DexterMorgan]

Press conf...injuries consistent with a cougar attack

Missing hiker found dead near Mount Hood killed by cougar, deputies say

The article gives tips for how to fend off Cougars. But it doesn't seem to effective if the cougar is hell bent on leaping at you. Jmo.

I wonder if she fell down the embankment while trying to escape the cougar. Very sad and scary.

 

[A1b2c3d4]

I wonder if anyone has searched the lake. If my memory serves me, it was pretty deep at some parts and judging from the photos on the FB page- there looks to be a lot of ice and snow still covering it. Figuring she was traveling super light, could she have gone to filter water in a bottle and fell through the ice in the process? Given the tempature and ice cover-

 

[DexterMorgan]

I wonder if anyone has searched the lake. If my memory serves me, it was pretty deep at some parts and judging from the photos on the FB page- there looks to be a lot of ice and snow still covering it. Figuring she was traveling super light, could she have gone to filter water in a bottle and fell through the ice in the process? Given the tempature and ice cover-

Would her backpack sink or float. Because everything is missing.

Atleast the recent lady backpack was first found and pointed them in the right direction. I don't know.

 

[sasha17]

I wonder if anyone has searched the lake. If my memory serves me, it was pretty deep at some parts and judging from the photos on the FB page- there looks to be a lot of ice and snow still covering it. Figuring she was traveling super light, could she have gone to filter water in a bottle and fell through the ice in the process? Given the tempature and ice cover-

Spada Lake or one of the other lakes in the area? IIRC, there's no trail from Vesper Peak down to Spada Lake - it's a rock cliff face. Even if she had somehow gone around the mountain and down in that direction (as I think one of the witnesses said they saw her heading in that direction), it would have taken a very long time to get all the way down to Spada Lake, certainly not just a quick jaunt down to fill a water bottle.

There is another lake, Vesper Lake, that is in the area and would be easier to get to, but it's still definitely off the trail. I'm not sure if they've searched in that lake, though. According to the maps on findsamsayers.com, they have flown a drone over the Vesper Lake area.

 

[i'm someone]

Yes, that's my understanding, too?



Carlton Carr (also called "Bud" and "Garuda King") is the owner/director of the organization 49th Parallel, who the family has appointed as the search operations coordinator, announced in a press release the admins posted on the Facebook group yesterday. (I'm using the word "organization" loosely here.)

Per the press release:
At the recommendation of the Jon Francis Foundation, and under Chief Dares, Carlton Carr will perform as Search Operations Manager. The family believes that with over 28 yrs of experience hiking and mountaineering in the Cascades, Carlton’s expertise will be instrumental in finding Sam. Carlton feels he was born for this. His father, Carlton Carr Sr., a SAR (Search And Rescue) leader and manager in Colorado and Utah, first enrolled him in survival school at age 11. Carlton Jr. is a Life/Eagle Scout from the Uinta District, has TCCC and wilderness first aid training, is FEMA certified, first aid certified and has managed and directed multiple private search missions including being a key first responder in the SGT. Eric Massey rescue.

 

[i'm someone]

Let's refresh, so maybe people can refocus and not violate TOS. It's simple:

1. Samantha Sayers is a missing person. This is a forum thread to discuss her case.
2. The LE and official SAR finished with their part at around the 3 week mark. They are not involved in active search, but as is realistic, are still involved in investigation of this very recent missing person case.
3. The family and her friends along with volunteers who are now trying to organize are actively searching for her in her LNS.
4. No one is profiting from, is happy about, or finds this anything other than a case of a missing loved one.
5. No other missing person case is being ignored or taken from to search for Sam, it is all volunteers and family searching now.
Please discuss this case as you would any other missing persons case because she is still missing, a family is stressed and worried, and are trying the best they can to find their daughter and friend. Just be respectful, that's all that needs to be done to follow TOS.

 

[i'm someone]

I don’t want to distract from Sam’s case by discussing Stephanie, but no, there was not “major searching for over a year” for Stephanie. Unlike Sam, there was very little community interest or involvement or family publicity. Actually, WSers led the publicity tenaciously and did a tremendous amount of sleuthing (even behind the scenes) that was passed on to the detective. LE led several very focused searches during the first few months and for about two years, and conducted a long investigation, but it was clear after a few months that foul play was likely and prosecution was not possible. It’s not a cold case, but it’s stalled because of reality. If her body is ever found, it will be by accident, as so many are. Her mother may die before that happens. It’s tragic, but it’s reality for many. That doesn’t make it “right,” but it’s a reality that Sam’s mother may have to face at some point, sadly. But I sincerely hope not.

This is my point here. It's been one month and eleven days, that is not a lot of searching. That is not a lot of sleuthing. There was very little community involvement in Stephanie's case because SM was not the prominent vehicle it is now. On SM, people post lost pets, lost children, lost seniors, point out crimes in their communities. It's just another tool for solving the issues we face. Like any tool for solving cases, it has it's limits, but used with other resources it obviously gets the word out quickly and focuses on the issue. If the online community is tapped of course there will be more community involvement. I wish it had been the case five years ago, but it doesn't negate the process now. Who knows, it might contribute to finding Stephanie yet.

 

[ElementalLaura]

With no way of knowing if someone is deceased when they are missing, why stop looking? If there are people who are not being searched for that you know of that mean something to you, do something about it. Don't disparage others for also looking for their own loved ones. I have no illusions that my family would even look for me themselves ever if I went missing, and many of the WS missing have many people looking for them(which is lucky). And don't confuse funds for this search as being taken from some other cause, because many people who donate to a cause donate to many. If there are issues of US citizens and their children sleeping in cars, call your congress people. It has nothing to do with this case.

RBBM.

There are ways of reducing uncertainty. (I'm going to skip over philosophical discussion of "what is knowing, really?" since Sam is the focus of this thread.) The decades of experience by people who have spent substantial time living in wilderness areas and who have devoted years of their lives to tracking and finding people lost in the wilderness provide a basis for reducing uncertainty. Her family insists she did not purposefully disappear, and what evidence we have indicates that she went for the hike that she told her BF about beforehand. And the widespread (if not unanimous) consensus by wilderness survival experts is that Sam could not survive in the wilderness with the equipment she had for this amount of time with no trace.

When someone falls in wilderness areas, it's not like they tumble off the side of a building. Often snow, dirt, scree (rocks) will either fall with the person or come loose as the person slides/falls down. A person can be partially or completely covered with debris. They can slide under rocks and shrubs in steep and inaccessible areas. It can snow, hail and rain, or sunny warm weather can spark snowmelt and snow slides. It's easy for someone to be lost without a trace due to a fall in mountainous terrain. I can't be 100% certain, but I suspect this is what happened to Sam, and I'm sorry that it happened.

Finally: I don't expect Sam's parents to stop looking. It's normal for parents to hold fast to hope in the face of overwhelming odds. No one with a heart faults Sam's mother (or Mollie Tibbets' father, for another recent example) for doing so. It's also normal to see, over time, other loved ones accept that their loved one is no longer alive, even if they do so subconsciously (Mollie's brother and Sam's BF slipping into past tense). On WS, we can all point to examples of parents searching tirelessly for their child's remains -- or for their child, decades after a disappearance. I applaud privately funded search efforts. I will question continued publicly funded search efforts because SAR resources are not infinite and should be applied to cases with the highest likelihood of finding someone alive.

MOO.

 

[Marknatm]

I know it isn't mentioned often, but abduction is a possibility that seems to be low on the priority list. I think somebody mentioned that Sam would be capable of putting up a good fight or be vocal. Vesper trail looked busy, but I doubt it would be classified as busy compared to other hiking paths. It's reminiscent of the case of Meredith Emerson being abducted by Gary Hilton. Meredith had extensive martial arts training, but it didn't stop Hilton from successfully taking her while on a hike in 2008 on Blood Mountain (Georgia). Hilton used hiking trails in the southeast to find his victims. He was caught in 2008 and is on death row in Florida.
There have been incidents along Mountain Loop Highway that make me wonder if a serial killer (or killers) is operating on the hiking trails along the Mountain Loop. An incident that is still unsolved is the murder of a mother and daughter in 2006 on Pinnacle Lake trail.

 

[sasha17]

I know it isn't mentioned often, but abduction is a possibility that seems to be low on the priority list. I think somebody mentioned that Sam would be capable of putting up a good fight or be vocal. Vesper trail looked busy, but I doubt it would be classified as busy compared to other hiking paths. It's reminiscent of the case of Meredith Emerson being abducted by Gary Hilton. Meredith had extensive martial arts training, but it didn't stop Hilton from successfully taking her while on a hike in 2008 on Blood Mountain (Georgia). Hilton used hiking trails in the southeast to find his victims. He was caught in 2008 and is on death row in Florida.
There have been incidents along Mountain Loop Highway that make me wonder if a serial killer (or killers) is operating on the hiking trails along the Mountain Loop. An incident that is still unsolved is the murder of a mother and daughter in 2006 on Pinnacle Lake trail.

I don't think this should be ruled out -- either a person who didn't know Sam and it was random, or someone she knew and recognized (friend, acquaintance, coworker?) who knew where she would be, met her along the trail, they hiked down to the trailhead together, and then something happened. If the latter, then she likely would have walked down completely naturally and not raised any red flags with others on the trail. It would just have been two people chatting and hiking together, until they reached the parking lot and the situation turned.

Personally, I think she most likely fell and is buried partially or completely under brush and rocks. But again, don't think a possible abduction can be completely ruled out. (MOO)