WA WA - Seattle, WhtFem 30-50, 159UFWA, alias 'Mary Anderson', copper IUD, breast surgery scars, Oct'96

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GloSeattle said:
Looking at David Conibear, him being from Ottawa, Ontario Canada, working in a college with access to cyanide...then looking further now again into gold mining in Canada there are SO Many gold mines in Ontario: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_gold_mines_in_Canada I'm focusing on missing in Ontario Province.
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Dead end, nothing posted there on anyone who would match her description. But that may just mean she's not from that Province. She might have been in Ontario when she first became aware of David Conibear's suicide reading about it while visiting a gold mine as a traveling vendor.... or she could have read about it in one of the other Provinces as a news story and became aware of him that way, and not been in the mining business. Although, it really looks like she might have been according to the KCME's notes. Maybe her company distributed these Mössbauer spectrometers or she was a traveling rep for a chemical company which manufactured Sodium Nitroprusside and visited those mines as a sales rep? Either way, in this case she'd have to have had some chemistry background - perhaps her interest in reading a story about a college employee using cyanide to kill himself. (All speculation on my part.)
 
FiveFelines said:
I think you're right on the money with this idea. I was doing some more research on suicides by cyanide and found some cases that might be of interest. In one from 1992, a man obtained cyanide and wrote about his experiences on an online group (alt.suicide). I think it's entirely possible that Mary was a member of that group or at least used it to research her own death. Check it out (please don't read if you find such things triggering, guys);

http://ash.notearthday.org/conibear.html
https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/alt.suicide.holiday/aD4xDFKAD5I

Description of a 2002 suicide by cyanide:

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/A-VIRTUAL-PATH-TO-SUICIDE-Depressed-student-2611315.php

I don't think Mary had to have had an occupational connection to cyanide at all after reading these posts.
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Did you see the obits for him? He had a sister named Mary? Weird weird coincidences...
DEATH NOTICE - "The Ottawa Citizen" October 8, 1992
CONIBEAR, DAVID Q.- Peacefully at his home on Wednesday, September 30, 1992, in his 28th year. Beloved son of Mildred and Roy. Beloved brother of Elizabeth, Mary and Ann. Beloved friend of many. Memorial service to be held on October 18, 1992 at the Ottawa Citadel of the Salvation Army, 1350 Walkley Road, at 6:30pm. All are welcome. David will be remembered by all for his help to others.
 
GloSeattle said:
Agreed! And Mary had a medicine bottle with the label torn off, so Mary took some sort of med's for something (BP, Depression??) I wonder how her pathology came back on her blood work, what other medications or substances were found in her blood, liver, kidneys, stomach contents, etc...?? Again, so much we don't know so many things one needs to know if hunting for a needle in a haystack.
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bbm So do you think maybe they couldn't trace the cyanide because it was a case of nitroprusside overdose? I don't recall seeing what kind of container the cyanide was kept in (is it in powder form? I have no idea).

Do you know how they got samples in order to test for the origin of the cyanide? Would that be from tissue samples (probably not) or from the container residue?

Sorry - all questions!! Very interesting interesting about the nitroprusside toxicity!!

ETA: the husband says that nitroprusside is used only IV in the inpatient setting. It looks like (according to Google) that it used to be available to take orally. I wonder when that practice stopped? Maybe she had access to sodium nitroprusside in some kind of lab/research setting?

did a little research - cyanide salts come in solid crystalline form. Post-mortem tissue, blood, and urine samples can show evidence of cyanide toxicity. When someone ingests the cyanide salts, investigators usually find particles around the nose/mouth. They will usually have alkali burns of the GI tract (although the ASH forum members discuss ways to minimize them).
http://www.shsu.edu/~pin_www/T@S/2012/cyanideresearch.html
 
annemc2 said:
bbm So do you think maybe they couldn't trace the cyanide because it was a case of nitroprusside overdose? I don't recall seeing what kind of container the cyanide was kept in (is it in powder form? I have no idea).

Do you know how they got samples in order to test for the origin of the cyanide? Would that be from tissue samples (probably not) or from the container residue?

Sorry - all questions!! Very interesting interesting about the nitroprusside toxicity!!

ETA: the husband says that nitroprusside is used only IV in the inpatient setting. It looks like (according to Google) that it used to be available to take orally. I wonder when that practice stopped? Maybe she had access to sodium nitroprusside in some kind of lab/research setting?

did a little research - cyanide salts come in solid crystalline form. Post-mortem tissue, blood, and urine samples can show evidence of cyanide toxicity. When someone ingests the cyanide salts, investigators usually find particles around the nose/mouth. They will usually have alkali burns of the GI tract (although the ASH forum members discuss ways to minimize them).
http://www.shsu.edu/~pin_www/T@S/2012/cyanideresearch.html
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This autopsy report as you read down states in this case, they normally look in the stomach where the concentration is, when taken orally. It would be present also if it's potassium cyanide drunk in the nostrils as it fumes, and could be found in the mouth as well. Since they didn't ID the origin of the drug, my guess (again a guess) is that it's either a hybrid (something she mixed herself or took samples at different locations combining them), or she ingested something that turns into cyanide in the body like the nail remover chemicals, or perhaps this medication that turns into cyanide in the body. From what I've read it doesn't have time to be concentrated in the urine before death occurs. It deprives organs like the heart and the brain of oxygen, and creates cellular death which is how the person dies. The body doesn't have time to detoxify, as the ratio for the body is 1% and the drug is at 2%. Here's the link again: http://cyanidepoisoning.blogspot.com/2004/10/autopsy-finding.html

Someone in pharmacology would know when the tablets stopped. I see them being prescribed in my literature that way up to 1975 but can't find any other listings on the exact time it stopped being sold as a tablet. Apparently it was still being sold for use in veterinary medicine as I see it being used for cats with vasodilation issues still.

From reading this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6375932 it seems that people with low thiosulfate reserves (for example, malnourished or postoperative patients) are at increased risk for developing symptoms, even with therapeutic or proper dosing of medication. Could she have worked in pharmacology as a vet med distributor? Just looking at some pathology reports on how patients get accidently poisoned from this medication. Maybe the pill bottle was from a vet clinic? Or maybe she had a dog or cat (that bowl) that had a vaso issue, passed on and she didn't tell the vet and stock piled the pills and took them? Would that be ID'd by KCME, or because the nitroprusside turns into cyanide it covers up what it was prior to it's chemical reaction? I agree this is all fascinating, and has been. Seems like with the lack of information, speculation goes rampant! I know my mind spins with this case. They always say the devil is in the details.

In the end, perhaps seeing she had that bowl she intended to inhale the potassium cyanide if there wasn't a pet that used it or it was a memorabilia item (she didn't seem like the type to take a bowl with for sentiment, I think at the point of suicide she lost that portion of herself unless that's all of her dog or cat she had left), but if there was cyanide of any form made in the USA they would have ID'd it, so that leaves a foreign or hybrid (combining of several labs cyanides) to avoid detection, or ingesting a drug that turns into cyanide. In that case and in the case of hybrid or foreign sources the bowl again becomes useless.
 
GloSeattle said:
Someone in pharmacology would know when the tablets stopped. I see them being prescribed in my literature that way up to 1975 but can't find any other listings on the exact time it stopped being sold as a tablet. Apparently it was still being sold for use in veterinary medicine as I see it being used for cats with vasodilation issues still.

From reading this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6375932 it seems that people with low thiosulfate reserves (for example, malnourished or postoperative patients) are at increased risk for developing symptoms, even with therapeutic or proper dosing of medication. Could she have worked in pharmacology as a vet med distributor? Just looking at some pathology reports on how patients get accidently poisoned from this medication. Maybe the pill bottle was from a vet clinic? Or maybe she had a dog or cat (that bowl) that had a vaso issue, passed on and she didn't tell the vet and stock piled the pills and took them? Would that be ID'd by KCME, or because the nitroprusside turns into cyanide it covers up what it was prior to it's chemical reaction? I agree this is all fascinating, and has been. Seems like with the lack of information, speculation goes rampant! I know my mind spins with this case. They always say the devil is in the details.
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rsbm Yes! I really enjoy reading your posts/thoughts. I was so excited when you mentioned the nitroprusside, thinking "that's it!" Too bad it really doesn't look like it's been available in po form for decades, even in veterinary use.

I'd guess - like you said - that there are a lot of details about the cyanide that we do not know. I don't quite understand how LE would go about tracing the origin of the cyanide. I'll have to look into that (or maybe someone here knows?). I wonder if there was residue in the bowl or in a hotel glass on the nightstand. Was there a detectable odor in the room? Might give clues as to cyanide vs. cyanogenic drug. ((sigh))

Someone has *got* to miss this woman.
 
annemc2 said:
rsbm Yes! I really enjoy reading your posts/thoughts. I was so excited when you mentioned the nitroprusside, thinking "that's it!" Too bad it really doesn't look like it's been available in po form for decades, even in veterinary use.

I'd guess - like you said - that there are a lot of details about the cyanide that we do not know. I don't quite understand how LE would go about tracing the origin of the cyanide. I'll have to look into that (or maybe someone here knows?). I wonder if there was residue in the bowl or in a hotel glass on the nightstand. Was there a detectable odor in the room? Might give clues as to cyanide vs. cyanogenic drug. ((sigh))

Someone has *got* to miss this woman.
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From what I do know, in the forensic (overviews) online they test known drugs for properties, and the exact properties of known drugs are compared against drugs and their patented formulations to determine manufacture. It's like they can distinguish a tire tread of one brand of tires from another, or the difference between Exedrin and extra strength aspirin. In fact, metals, and pretty much all things have unique signatures. The only time they don't is when they're made in another country and our labs have not dissected their properties. Since the Tylenol scare, and all the other tampering over the years. They became quite sophisticated in identifying the types of cyanide produced in labs, of course that was just in case of another run at tampering and a mass casualty attempt in the future. Each time certain drugs are used in order to incapacitate people, gasses and other compounds that can even be used in terrorist activities, those properties are published and LE has access. When they run the samples in their labs it will give it's distinct chemical signature and they will send out these results to the corporations who make them to see if there's a match. This is true with fibers, metal, and pretty much anything that is manufactured. Where this is sticky I think is that it was either a mixture of several manufacturers (hybrid), a drug either pharmaceutical or cosmetic (nail remover) that causes cyanide in the body therefore that chemical signature wouldn't match anything, or it was obtained out of the country. Either way it's a mess for them to figure out. I just watched an interview with David Lewis Rice, the guy who's appeal wasn't heard on the 6th of October by the Supreme Court so he was apparently up for his death sentence to be served on him. In the last interview, part 3, about 5 minutes and 32 seconds into it, as David is being handcuffed and sent out of the courtroom, behind him you can see a heaver set gal with auburn hair, shoulder length in the first row behind him. It's a millisecond as the camera pans up from his handcuffs, she's in a white shirt. This is in 1986, and I wonder now if that wasn't our Mary. This man says he wasn't always this way, and when I read his appeal notes for his trial his family said the same and argued for his appeal. The interview is on YouTube and the appeal is in another document. I'll post the links here. Thank you so much, I enjoy everyone else's comments too. I sure do think someone is missing her, they just don't know she's gone and I'll bet money they think she is still mad at them and may never come and see them or talk to them again. (Especially if she's David's girlfriend, omg he's a real piece of work and it's scary because his thoughts and this Christian groups thoughts are some of what we are still dealing with in 2014 almost 30 years later!) I hope in digging through all this stuff we will find something to put a name on this lady's headstone. She deserves that, she was a person and no doubt loved by someone very much, otherwise she could have never felt this depth of pain.
Transcripts: http://courts.mrsc.org/mc/courts/zsupreme/118wn2d/118wn2d0876.htm
Sam Keen Interview with David Lewis Rice, Part 3 of 3 (see 5:31-5:33): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qJprWzVY8I

PS: Also, nitroprusside is/was/at one time was used for schizophrenia too, which David Lewis Rice is accused of having per court documents... Just another tid bit of information probably not useful at all except for similarities, and oddities.
 
A little more information on cyanide and other materials that can create cyanide. Please note the reference to the plastics industry and it's use of nitriles, and also how we manufactured cyanide for Iraq to use against the Kurds. It is considered a weapon of chemical terrorism, so I'm sure they keep a real good data base on every sample they ever see out there... of course, again ... if it's a cyanogen (something that can create cyanide in your body, I am guessing it would be very unique to some extent?), or a hybrid there may be no "guide book."
 
Suicide by cyanides normally have a history of depression and majority of them occured at home. Actual amounts were averaging 232MG in the stomach, not much at all. The spleen is normally tested as it has a high concentration of red blood cells.

"...Although ingestation of cyanide is a quick and efficient method of suicide it is rarely used in the United States. People who use cyanide to commit suicide often have ready access to the poison through their occupations.

Availability is one factor that determine the choice of a particular method of suicide. It is not surprising that a chemist can easily obtain cyanide. There are, however, other occupations with access to cyanide that are not as obvious. These include jewelers and workers in industries such as pest control, photography, electroplating, dyeing, and printing. Jewelers use cyanide to rid gold of tarnish (personal communication with Tiffany and Company). Poachers poison salmon with a cyanide compound called Cymag. Miners use cyanide to separate various precious metals from ores. In certain cases, the occupation of the spouse of the decendent may be more important than the decendents."

Source: http://www.hawaii.edu/hivandaids/Suicide_by_Cyanide__17_Deaths.pdf
2002
 
Interesting stuff. From what I understand, a relatively high dose will kill very quickly but it can be quite painful as it can burn the mouth and throat. Smaller doses take longer to kill but are less painful. " Suicide" manuals and websites advise how to ingest it in way that will minimize pain. (I wonder if Mememucile had something to do with it).

The significance of the manner of ingestion is that the type of cyanide recovered from the mouth or stomach can be identified while cyanide from the blood stream can not (or at least not through standard technology).

The type of cyanide can be a clue to the identity of the deceased.

The type of cyanide most easily obtainable to someone with no ties to any industry that uses it would be the type used in the jewelry industry. It is not sold as cyanide but under a product name by each manufacturer/ distributer. Each product is a little different. If enough was recovered from the mouth or elsewhere, the manufacturer could be identified and that may narrow down the number of distributors enough.

The trouble is that this expense and effort might be used in cases of product tampering or terrorism they may not be justified in identifying a suicide victim.
 
kemo said:
Interesting stuff. From what I understand, a relatively high dose will kill very quickly but it can be quite painful as it can burn the mouth and throat. Smaller doses take longer to kill but are less painful. " Suicide" manuals and websites advise how to ingest it in way that will minimize pain. (I wonder if Mememucile had something to do with it).

The significance of the manner of ingestion is that the type of cyanide recovered from the mouth or stomach can be identified while cyanide from the blood stream can not (or at least not through standard technology).

The type of cyanide can be a clue to the identity of the deceased.

The type of cyanide most easily obtainable to someone with no ties to any industry that uses it would be the type used in the jewelry industry. It is not sold as cyanide but under a product name by each manufacturer/ distributer. Each product is a little different. If enough was recovered from the mouth or elsewhere, the manufacturer could be identified and that may narrow down the number of distributors enough.

The trouble is that this expense and effort might be used in cases of product tampering or terrorism they may not be justified in identifying a suicide victim.
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Yes, they did test for the type of cyanide, but came up blank. Cyanide is now considered a chemical warfare weapon so they have a "bead on" what/who mixes what type and where since the 80's when we manufactured it to use on the Kurds in Iraq. That facility was located in Florida. The Metamucil was used to create the acidic environment necessary so a small amount would work. She apparently, according to these suicide sites, starved herself drinking Crystal Light (probably lemonade flavor as it's more acidic) and took Metamucil to become dehydrated as well. Lack of oxygen from cyanide and lack of water (laxatives take water and use it for stool and not to provide nutrients to the body) so the cyanide works better, in a more friendly environment to do the greatest damage. I'm really leaning, like KCME did, that she worked in an industry where availability wasn't an issue and that perhaps she was a traveling vendor for some portion of that industry and had access. Or she worked as a chemist in a lab somewhere. Since this was 1996, we had behind us for the most part only mass suicides, and using cyanide for warfare as a chemical agent and no terrorism task force. The only way we might get this lady ID'd is if she matches a missing person as she's been buried for almost 30 years. Or she had something with her that ties her to another area (French and English translation toothpaste) or is remembered now and someone comes forward, etc.... Cold case in a half!
 
Here's the article that appeared 2 days before our Jane checked into the hotel:

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19961007&slug=2353042

Last words in the report are interesting from the governor and if she was involved with him (notice he was unavailable for sentencing because he swallowed a mixture of tobacco and water) for a quick execution:" 'Although this doesn't end Rice's challenge, it eliminates a major obstacle in moving the case forward and meeting the public's demand that criminal laws be carried out fairly and expeditiously," said state Attorney General Christine Gregoire.'
 
Great info on the cyanide! I think I missed where you first explained the David Lewis Rice theory. Can anyone clarify? Thanks : )
 
FiveFelines said:
Great info on the cyanide! I think I missed where you first explained the David Lewis Rice theory. Can anyone clarify? Thanks : )
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Post 549... and forward just going through newspapers from the first weeks in October thru when she checked in.
 
 
I googled Cymag and found out that it was widely used in the UK as a poison against rodents, particularly rabbits; its use in salmon poaching is a side use. It appears to have been readily available until around 2004 despite having been banned quite a while earlier. It comes as powder or pellets that when mixed with an acid produces a toxic gas.
 
carbuff said:
I googled Cymag and found out that it was widely used in the UK as a poison against rodents, particularly rabbits; its use in salmon poaching is a side use. It appears to have been readily available until around 2004 despite having been banned quite a while earlier. It comes as powder or pellets that when mixed with an acid produces a toxic gas.
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Right so they would be able to ID that source if it was consumed, in her stomach and trace elements in the glass with Metamucil and Crystal Light - it's manufactured and would have a chemical signature that would be identifiable.
 
FiveFelines said:
And there's apricot kernels/Laetrile too, although I suspect that would have turned up more specifically in her autopsy: http://www.cancer.org/treatment/tre...harmacologicalandbiologicaltreatment/laetrile
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I wonder... if it's something organic or is produced in the body and turns into cyanide, would they be able to ID it as being that? That's a good question... No where in all the documentation online do I find how they actually identify these types of cyanide...I know they have the manufacturing information, so if she was taking a plain cyanide that was manufactured in the US they would know it's composition when they ran it. But... if she created it out of an organic or hybrid (several samples of manufactured cyanide) could they id that or would it come up with their analysis; which was unknown?

And did you catch this? "...Although drug interactions are unknown, at least one case report suggests that vitamin C can increase the amount of cyanide released from Laetrile in the body." Didn't Crystal Light have Vitamin C in their lemonade flavor??? If so, she was EXTREMELY meticulous and maybe why the KCME said she was. Between starving herself a few days, drinking Metamucil and Crystal Light (probably Lemonade flavor) to increase her acidity, and then this info about Vitamin C...perhaps this IS what she used? That might put her, at least on business trips, in the Northern California area or perhaps as a former resident there? Nice find :)
 
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