WA WA - Shantina Smiley, 29, & Azriel Carver, 8 (fnd deceased), Olympia, Mar 2010 - #2

[LadyL]

she left home at 4:15pm. she spoke to RS at 6:45pm and she had only made it to olympia. she should have been to step dad's house by then or pretty close.

she should have arrived in olympia at 6pm. from6-10 she never found the road out of olympia. 4 hours! i don't buy it. not at all.

[bbm]

me neither

Tides come in quickly in that area. People think of them as waves, but it is really a "flush" of water and it does rise rapidly. HOWEVER, it doesn't rise THAT rapidly that you can't just walk away from it.

The difference between low and high tides can be tremendous, some days more than others.

If they were in the van, and the tide began coming in, they could have likely gotten out, walked out from it, up the beach, unless they had not awakened until it was pretty full. Az, being short, would have had trouble.

I was once stuck in the mud flat at low tide near Anacortes. Very frightening, but even though the tide was coming in, plenty of time for a rescue. But that was in daylight, and I had voluntarily gone onto the mud.

I am so sad for little Az. I think of him wanting a candybar or whatever at that one convenience store, and her shaking her head, "No." I am glad the people gave him a slice of pizza.

The whole running around, smiling in stores, bs of the game (IMO) she was playing, it makes me sick. I don't care to hear "relapse" given as an excuse, either. Totally ridiculous person and Az paid the price.

[bbm]

agreed - looks like posturing to me

but why? who would she be putting on a show for? what kind of game was it?

 

[LotsaLatte]

The pole in the below photo is on the same side of the car with the markings and is the same color as the above markings on the van.

I'm still thinking that when she referred to "accident" that she had another hit and run incident and didn't want to be caught drinking and driving. It would be interesting to know if anyone reported any damage to a vehicle or property that may have been done last Saturday. OR maybe she hit something insignificant but was afraid to tell RS she damaged his mini van and was drinking.

 

[LotsaLatte]

I remember RS saying something about SS "complaining about traffic" when she talked to him on the phone. On a Saturday afternoon, there isn't that much traffic in that area that I know of. On Friday (when everyone's heading out of town) or on Sunday (when everyone's heading back home from the peninsula) there is a lot of traffic. But Saturdays are pretty mellow.

Wait, wasn't she still North of him at that time? So he would already be through any traffic? Unless there was an accident or event that caused excessive traffic? Maybe?

 

[Mia]

You must be very lucky to NOT have to know about this sad stuff firsthand

An alcoholic is still an alcoholic when they are not drinking...they are a "sober alcoholic" or "in recovery"...but they are ONLY one step away from a drink

of course she had physical and mental and spiritual problems or she would NOT have picked up the first drink..that is the insanity of alcohol and addiction..doing something again that you know resulted in bad things before

Yes, it is infuriating that her son paid with his life...but there were other people in his life...it is sad that they too probably needed help

Shantina's own mother committed suicide...the bio father apparently was not in their lives much....the fiance seemed to be in total denial...being able to pass a coding class means nothing in comparison IMHO

once she picked up the first drink all bets were off

I notice that NO one has addressed my various posts about the lack of rehabs, mental health emergency care, etc

that would have been the "real" solution here

LogicalMinds, I do think addiction is a HUGE problem in our country. I live on the west side of Greenwich Village, across the street from the oldest AA meeting in the city, and you'd be amazed at the dozens of young people outside smoking cigarettes and drinking coffee at all hours of the day and night, before and after meetings, clearly trying to get help for their alcoholism. And these people are not old grungy men and women who look like they haven't bathed - they are young professionals of all colors and backgrounds. It seems that a lot of people who have been lucky enough not to have first or second hand experience with addiction think a clean, educated, articulate person cannot be an 'alcoholic' or an 'addict' but it's just not true. Like I said before, many addicts are functioning on VERY high levels, yet that does not make the disease any less serious or painful, and eventually they will crash and burn if they don't receive help.

That brings me to your issue of lack of rehabs in this country. I totally agree. If one doesn't have a good insurance plan that covers a stay in rehab - and even many insurance plans will ***** and moan about paying for rehab, or not pay for the entire course of treatment that is needed - then one is just out of luck. You say it hasn't always been like this - what happened in the 80s that changed things, if you don't mind me asking? Wouldn't it be wonderful if any addict or alcoholic who wanted help could walk into a free rehab and stay until they were in recovery? Think about how many would get help that aren't getting help now for financial reasons. And it would certainly pay off in the long run, as we'd have millions more healthy, functioning members of society. I don't know if money was an issue for Shantina in getting the help she needed, or what kind of insurance plan she had, and of course she would have had to have wanted to get help in order to get better...but I'm willing to bet if she had the option of free treatment she would have taken it, and two lives may have been saved.

 

[revampz]

hi guys....I dont know if this has been posted but on one of the newsites it says that azriel was taken from his mother by welfare as he was left unsupervised while she was passed out....this was in 2007.......

so sad....

 

[Amster]

hi guys....I dont know if this has been posted but on one of the newsites it says that azriel was taken from his mother by welfare as he was left unsupervised while she was passed out....this was in 2007.......

so sad....

Yes...it is sad and pathetic. Where children are concerned there shouldn't be any "do overs"....she lost him for a year and it evidently didn't make that big of an impact on her. Nope. She got him back and killed him.

 

[Mia]

Maybe, maybe not.

Are you an alcoholic?

Alcohol is alcohol, no matter what form it takes.





Her autopsy should show damage of some sort if she's an alcoholic, I'd think.

Why are you so against the idea of Shantina being an alcoholic? All signs point to this. Her fiance said she was, I don't know what would motivate him to lie - in fact he only came out with this information a few days into her disappearance, and was seemingly trying to avoid releasing this information until he had to in fear it would make the public care less about her somehow - and I haven't heard any of her friends or family dispute her fiance's statement. In addition, we have videotape of her buying a jug of wine in a convenience store, and this same jug of wine was found half full washed up on the beach. Drinking half a jug of wine while driving with one's young son in the car is not the behavior of someone who does NOT have alcohol problems, I'm sorry. Also, we have multiple witness statements saying she seemed intoxicated, and finally, we have an end result of a dead mother and child and at this point, I'm leaning toward alcohol being the deadly factor in this tragedy - I don't see evidence pointing toward a murder or murder-suicide, yet.

And hey, why did you ask LogicalMinds if she is an alcoholic? If you read her post, she clearly says she grew up around alcoholics, got drunk once in college with said bad results, and since then rarely touches alcohol at all although doesn't think she has the 'gene' for alcoholism.

ETA: Now we just found out Shantina lost Azriel for a year in 2007 because she passed out while drunk and left him unsupervised. Do you still want to deny that she was an alcoholic?

 

[revampz]

am behind with the news....I noticed that this had already been posted a few pages back.....

I wonder if she had been drinking the whole time...hence the beer with the pizza....also remember that drinkers/alcoholics dont get blotto all of the time......

when I was younger, I was a party girl and a binge drinker.......I could have a couple of drinks sometimes but if what if it was clicked in my head (mood) I would be the girl ordering 4 drinks at the the last drinks bell......

I also much to my horror now drove while blotto and have woken up the next day and not remembered driving home......and a couple of my friends were exactly the same.......this was in my wild single days that went on until I was about 34....thank goodness I met a nice man and having kids completely changed my life....

but I can understand the "drinking mood" and the completely abnormal things you do....but sadly never, ever with a child.....

 

[jessigirl]

Has there been any new evidence or items wash ashore? I agree with one of the previous posters that if they both washed away from van site or in close vacinity to one another wouldn't they similarly wash ashore in sime vacinity and time frame? My thought is that if they didn't wash away at the same time wouldn't the other have been screaming for help or just screaming being terrified!?? That house is so very close to where the van was the owners would have definately heard the screams!!??
Also has ther been any other sightings or run Ins with shantina from last Saturday? There is so much time unaccounted for yet they stayed in thAt smAll area of Olympia. (4-6hrs of time literally within a few miles of each other) makes me think there has to be others she came in contact with or atleast saw her??

 

[James Vic]

I noticed in at least one of the security camera videos, it seemed like the boy was helping the mother. In many dependant/co-dependant child mother relationships, the child often takes on the position of being the adult in the relationship. They cover up and help the parent. Does anyone know if she was a border?

King5 news is reporting that the boy died of accidental drowning.

http://www.king5.com/news/Search-to...m-after-sons-body-washes-ashore-88553242.html

Maybe the mother was in the water and the boy went in to help her? I understand the clinical term accidental drowning; however, the term accident has always given me the impression that no one is responsible.

 

[James Vic]

Has there been any new evidence or items wash ashore? I agree with one of the previous posters that if they both washed away from van site or in close vacinity to one another wouldn't they similarly wash ashore in sime vacinity and time frame? My thought is that if they didn't wash away at the same time wouldn't the other have been screaming for help or just screaming being terrified!?? That house is so very close to where the van was the owners would have definately heard the screams!!??
Also has ther been any other sightings or run Ins with shantina from last Saturday? There is so much time unaccounted for yet they stayed in thAt smAll area of Olympia. (4-6hrs of time literally within a few miles of each other) makes me think there has to be others she came in contact with or atleast saw her??

I just thought of this while reading your post, would weight, clothing, and mass effect where the body would drift?

 

[LotsaLatte]

Yes...it is sad and pathetic. Where children are concerned there shouldn't be any "do overs"....she lost him for a year and it evidently didn't make that big of an impact on her. Nope. She got him back and killed him.

I wonder if the father ever had a chance to intervene for custody at that point. And if so, did he attempt to be involved? Not that it matters right now I guess. It's just breaking my heart to see this. And it's really pathetic that there is even a need for Child Protective Services in our world. Protecting is the job of BOTH parents of every child.

 

[Mia]

Yes...it is sad and pathetic. Where children are concerned there shouldn't be any "do overs"....she lost him for a year and it evidently didn't make that big of an impact on her. Nope. She got him back and killed him.

Once again, agreed, Amster. All day I couldn't stop thinking of little Azriel. Those videotapes of his last few hours on earth are haunting me. Especially the one where they're in Safeway and he runs in, checks out the candy display, then dances and fools around for the camera. He's just so beautiful and full of life and innocent, and HUMAN, in that video, and then mere hours later he is dead, being washed away with the tides. It's just so incredibly WRONG. This was NOT his time to go, he had many more candy bars to eat and cub scout meetings to go to and sunny days to enjoy. And yes, it pi$$es me off to see his mother smiling happily while making the choice to buy the jug of wine that will eventually contribute big time to the death of her son. And why? For a buzz, that's why. More important than her son's life. I've never felt so much anger towards a 'victim' on this board before - victim in quotes because is she? She made the decision to drink, to be irresponsible in a deadly way. I know alcoholism is a disease, but couldn't she have waited until she was not driving her son around??? Even alcoholics can make choices, IMO. She could have gotten drunk once they reached their destination, yet she chose not to. Ok, done fuming for now. But those images of Azriel will continue to haunt me.

ETA: Just read that Azriel was taken away from Shantina in 2007 because she passed out and left him unsupervised. OMG. Seeing red. So apparently this wasn't the first time she chose alcohol over her baby's safety. Un.Believeable.

 

[90Nine]

am behind with the news....I noticed that this had already been posted a few pages back.....

I wonder if she had been drinking the whole time...hence the beer with the pizza....also remember that drinkers/alcoholics dont get blotto all of the time......

when I was younger, I was a party girl and a binge drinker.......I could have a couple of drinks sometimes but if what if it was clicked in my head (mood) I would be the girl ordering 4 drinks at the the last drinks bell......

I also much to my horror now drove while blotto and have woken up the next day and not remembered driving home......and a couple of my friends were exactly the same.......this was in my wild single days that went on until I was about 34....thank goodness I met a nice man and having kids completely changed my life....

but I can understand the "drinking mood" and the completely abnormal things you do....but sadly never, ever with a child.....

It seems like she met a nice man with a nice family as well. But she couldn't let go of her demons. But why would she when it's okay with him for her to have casual drinks. They were together when her son was taken away from her for being passed out because she was drunk. Very co-dependent in my opinion.

I understand that you can't stop an alcoholic from drinking if they are going to do that. But don't support it. I imagine he was having a beer on their vacation as well.

He might be identifying her 'relapse' as non-stop binge drinking, in his mind. And thinking that her casual drinking was her drinking being 'under control'. As we all know, it doesn't work that way. I doubt she ever stopped binge drinking at all. Maybe not as frequently.

I do wish LE would release more information. I wish the media was on it a bit more. There is so much information that has not been released.

 

[powayparent]

Wouldn't it be wonderful if any addict or alcoholic who wanted help could walk into a free rehab and stay until they were in recovery? Think about how many would get help that aren't getting help now for financial reasons. And it would certainly pay off in the long run, as we'd have millions more healthy, functioning members of society. I don't know if money was an issue for Shantina in getting the help she needed, or what kind of insurance plan she had, and of course she would have had to have wanted to get help in order to get better...but I'm willing to bet if she had the option of free treatment she would have taken it, and two lives may have been saved.

According the article she got treatment in 2007 when she lost Azriel due to leaving him unattended when she passed out. If she was openly drinking as it seemed in the photos, she'd decided she didn't have a problem and the availability of treatment would not have made a difference. Rehab is not a panacea, sobriety is a daily choice and that day she chose to drink.

 

[90Nine]

According the article she got treatment in 2007 when she lost Azriel due to leaving him unattended when she passed out. If she was openly drinking as it seemed in the photos, she'd decided she didn't have a problem and the availability of treatment would not have made a difference. Rehab is not a panacea, getting into and staying in recovery is a daily choice and that day she chose to drink.

I believe she also had treatment shortly after her 2005 DUI and hit and run as a condition of the court.

 

[impatientredhead]

CPS will investigate all... meaning they will try to determine if there is a valid complaint and then go further if that is the case. I think when they say "investigate" they mean they determined those three were valid. My daughter works in CPS in another state, but their protocols are basically the same.

I called DSHS here in Washington state. Told them about a little girl, provided her name, address, parents SSN (that I had access to because of where I worked), but I had not met the little girl so I was trying to make sure they knew exactly who the girl in question was.

There were in depth, horribly detailed conversations that went in on in our office about the aunts of this little girl knowing for a fact that she was being sexually abused by the boyfriend in the house, including how she was acting out in school, bleeding vaginally etc....

None of them would call so I called and was told point blank my call would not be investigated because it was third hand information, that i was not a legitimate witness, and the only thing I could do was try to get one of the aunts to make an on the record complaint (I was going to call back as an anonyomous tip) but they said that would just go in the records.

I called the girls school and told them what I had heard in hopes that they would then see something that would make them a mandatory reporter. But I know my call is under an uninvestigated catagory like the majoritiy of Az's calls.

 

[Amster]

I raised 3 sons....8 years old is such a special age. Not a "little boy" yet not really a "big boy". Just so cute and full of life. Still a little cuddly.....nothing is sweeter than a little boys hugs. WHY?? Why did she not treasure him?? Love and protect him? No answer I guess. None that I can fathom....

Soar on eagles wings, sweet Azriel.

 

[impatientredhead]

This is such a sad case, breaks your heart to think of little Azriel dyingt like that. God Bless him and his mother too.

Yesterday at this link http://www.thenewstribune.com/2010/...&&mi_pluck_action=page_nav#Comments_Container, I read a comment by a local that was very moving. I can't find that comment now but it said something like:

They said they believe the water came up very quickly and the mother who had gotten out of the car, was washed away. And Aziel, in trying to rescue his Mom, was washed away too. I am sure it was just the posters opinion. In the article tho it says " . . . Tides move pretty quick,” Troyer said. “When the tide flows out of here, it can take something a long way, and this beach and island are right in the way.”

Read more: http://www.thenewstribune.com/2010/...ion=page_nav#Comments_Container#ixzz0ifJOrJ8x

The more we learn about her drinking history and how much he has been exposed to it I am now thinking she passed out in the vehicle and as the water started to rise he couldn't wake her up and tried to go for help.

That water is freezing, and there is a good current at high tide. He probably ended up in the water first, and who knows how long it may have taken her to realized he was gone.

I hope it was quick and painless for him.
What a waste.

 

[sorrell skye]

I just thought of this while reading your post, would weight, clothing, and mass effect where the body would drift?

People with more lean muscle mass tend to sink more easily. People with more body fat in proportion to lean muscle mass float more easily.

Generally speaking, adult women have more body fat than adult men (regardless of fitness level - nothing to do with being overweight). This is just generally speaking, though.

So Shantina may have floated out farther in the current (if she drowned, too).