Warren Jeffs FLDS compound in Texas surrounded by police #4

[Jolynna]

Don't some states still have laws on their books that make activities considered "normal and usual" by most sexually active adults illegal?

I don't know if states or the feds should regulate which consenting 'adult' does what with another consenting 'adult'.

IMO

 

[cheko1]

Yes it is really sad what happened with the Indians. Many ways we might chose differently if we could know then what we know now.

The reason I asked you what your feelings were on gay marriage is because in a previous post you were explaining to me how you would handle yourself if you were an FLDS woman who wanted to get her children back. One of the things you said was that they should go to court "one husband" and one wife" and claim their children as their own. (wording is only trying to capture the spirit of your post not be a word for word) Using that same line of thinking then one man with who showed up with three (all of legal age)wives to claim thier children would be what? Should that lessen their chances?
What does it say about us as a society when we are comfortable with homosexuality and not polygamy (assuming all the partners in the poygamous erlationship are consenting adults?)

Yes that is exactly what I said.....1 husband / 1 wife.

I never said I was comfortable in the gay scenario. I told you what I knew to be a fact. Its not for me.....I've heard many horror stories about the couple I am referring to. They expected the backlash & have gotten it many many times. If any type of child abuse was going on her own sister who is a social worker would turn her in. Also the sister that is a social worker refuses to have any kids because she doesn't want *HER & HUBBIES* kids to associate with them.

 

[Leila]

Sex at the age of 7

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/gr...cts-sex-slavery/2008/04/11/1207856831642.html

Grim tales surface of sect's sex slavery

"The Mackert sisters grew up alongside Jeffs in Colorado City, near Arizona's border with Mormon-dominated Utah."


"My father had four wives yet he couldn't keep his hands off his daughters," said Rena Mackert, one of 31 siblings. "One of my sisters had five sons, all sodomised by their father."Referring to her own experience, Rena's sister, Kathleen Mackert, said: "I was required to perform oral sex on my father when I was seven, and it escalated from there. "The abuse was rampant - physical, sexual, emotional. We experienced all three. Some of it at the hands of the men, some of it at the hands of the wives."

"You are taught that you can all but kill a child for deliberate disobedience. The men have their power taken away by [Warren] Jeffs. The only thing they have control over is their wives and children. It's power, it's control, and it's
sex. "This is about underage children being bartered as sex slaves, taken across state lines to marry into other compounds. It's just that they tried to cover it up under the label of freedom of religion."

Molly.............that is one powerful story! It's difficult to even imagine the abuses these children endured. It's not just sexual abuse, it's much much more.

 

[Glow]

Glow, those same people at YFZ were at Colorado city and Hilldale. If the abuse occurred at those places it's likely it was continuing at YFZ. Abusers don't quit merely because they relocate, and these are the handpicked most obedient to Warren Jeffs.

Since when does CPS or LE negotiate with a possible abuser? FLDS members were purchasing stuff from stores. The men were drinking Welch's grape juice. That's not made on their ranch.

sThee men are not likely to change from within

Even then the mentions of her children being abused from Carolyn Jessup at the hands of her ex husband Merril Jessop while awful, are still his actions. That doesn't make them everyone's.

We are being guided to think that they are all the same. That all these men deserve the same label. I wouldn't want to do that without proof.

As far as drinking grape juice that is not grown on their ranch..... it is still healthy. I'm sure they bought many foods and drinks of that kind. The early reports of digestive upsets with the children were because they couldn't have the foods they were used to. One of the more culturally ignorant comments by one of the "volunteers" with the children said that they (the children) were "subsisting" on a diet of yogurt fruits and nuts but she thought they would get better.....who thinks of that as subsisting? The kids are just trying to sort through fruit loops, chicken fingers and happy meals and find something familiar to eat! (sigh)

 

[mysteriew]

Seems all of us agree that having sex with under aged minors is against the law and needs to be stopped.

I'm curious as to how many among us feel the same/different about polygamy?

Since you asked, I will feel free to respond.

How do I feel about polygamy? For the most part I feel it is consenting adults and I don't have a strong feeling about it. It is sort of a woman who insists in staying in a marriage where domestic violence is rampant. Her choice. Except in this case, it is against the law for her to remain in a plural relationship. However, I do object to raising children (boys or girls) to believe they must participate in a plural marriage. Because they are encouraging children to break the law.

How do I feel about underage marriage? Children should not be marrying before maturity. Children should not be bearing children before maturity. Statistics for teen pregnancies show that children having children are at a greater risk for serious health problems, death and miscarriages. (Kind of answers your questions about why if they did it a hundred years ago that they cannot do it now. Those studies weren't available a hundred years ago.) And no child should ever be forced into a marriage under the age of consent. If they are 18 and consent to an arranged marriage, that is a different issue. Again teaching the children by example it is ok to break the law.

How do I feel about incest? Causes serious birth defects. Forces children of the union to live with disabilities. And it has been proven that incest does exist in the FLDS and there is an increased rate of certain birth defects in the FLDS. Some of those children who are currently in custody are likely to be the product of incest as looking at the last names, you see many of the same names. And again, because the church takes the incest taboo away, it teaches and encourages the children to break the law when they become adults.

Oh, yeah. I also have issues with the government contracts being given to the churches. Remember that constitutional issue of separation of church and state? The government won't fund a church child care facility, but they will fund defense contracts to the church org.? I also have a problem with the "spiritual wives" getting on welfare because they can. And I am sure if I looked back through the thread I could find other financial issues that I have issues with.

My opinion at first was that I was glad the mothers went with the kids when they went into custody. But watching the mother's on TV and watching the debate here, I have changed my mind on that issue. You all have convinced me, the state was wrong!

I have an issue with a single community being given special privileges. In any other CPS investigation where child abuse of any type is found, the children would be taken into custody, the case would go to court and then the kids put straight into foster care. The child would be removed from both parents pending court hearings, even if only one parent committed the abuse. Because the other parent permitted it. Doesn't matter if they are breast feeding, if the child cries for their parent or if the parent objects. Yet with this community, the mothers got to go too. Special privileges not given to the rest of the country. So yes, I guess you could say I do disagree with the state's (CPS) actions in removing the kids. You have now convinced me they did it incorrectly and did give the appearance of discriminating for some reason, though it was probably for the state's convenience to give them time to get additional workers there to aid in caring for the kids. And I do have to say, my opinion is now different.

 

[barb0301]

Originally Posted by barb0301
From Thursday's testimony by CPS worker:


"Can you identify any households in which a child was caused serious injury or death? the attorney says.
Yes, the CPS supervisor says."

None of the attorneys present questioned this statement.

So yes, there does appear to be claims of some sort of abuse, other than sexual, at YFZ.

Yes, I saw that in the transcript. It will be interesting to see what is produced.

Then I think your argument of none of the claims of abuse have been made on behalf of the YFZ children (paraphrasing) is a moot point now. CPS made that claim in court on Thursday.

 

[Glow]

A claim is not proof. CPS has an enormous amount of pressure to produce something the state can work with. I want to see what that is.

 

[mysteriew]

A claim is not proof. CPS has an enormous amount of pressure to produce something the state can work with. I want to see what that is.

In every court/legal case proof has to be provided. However, the court has their own time table and will produce their proof at the proper time. It won't be dragged through the media or given to individuals first unless they are participants of the investigation. And contrary to the FLDS women's claims, I do believe they have been given some of the info.

 

[mollymalone]

Even then the mentions of her children being abused from Carolyn Jessup at the hands of her ex husband Merril Jessop while awful, are still his actions. That doesn't make them everyone's.

We are being guided to think that they are all the same. That all these men deserve the same label. I wouldn't want to do that without proof.

As far as drinking grape juice that is not grown on their ranch..... it is still healthy. I'm sure they bought many foods and drinks of that kind. The early reports of digestive upsets with the children were because they couldn't have the foods they were used to. One of the more culturally ignorant comments by one of the "volunteers" with the children said that they (the children) were "subsisting" on a diet of yogurt fruits and nuts but she thought they would get better.....who thinks of that as subsisting? The kids are just trying to sort through fruit loops, chicken fingers and happy meals and find something familiar to eat! (sigh)

Given their habitual lying and manipulation of their names and familial ties to the CPS and LE I wouldn't be surprised that this is one more regarding their diet. The children were upset over their situation and it's more likely that caused the stomach upsets than the diet. I can sympathize with the children for that.

No, it doesn't make everyone's actions, but when you have x amount of men who are striving to be higher up in ranking within the community and the boys are being taught that this is how you control your wives or child, then it's quite likely they are following their leader's example.

There may well be some of the men who don't like abuse but those are the ones who are more likely to be thrown out of the sect. However, these are the handpicked, most obedient to Jeffs, following his example in all things.

 

[mollymalone]

http://www.slate.com/id/2189275/

Page 25: In a favorite children's game, called Apocalypse, kids act out the FLDS vision of the end of the world. According to FLDS lore, Native Americans who were mistreated and killed in pioneer days will be resurrected in the end times, when God will allow them to wreak vengeance on those who wronged them (the presumably also-resurrected settlers). In return for this indulgence, "resurrected Indians" will also be "required to take on the job of protecting God's chosen people"—FLDS members—by killing FLDS enemies with invisible tomahawks that can sever a person's heart in half. Very cowboys and Indians!

 

[Jolynna]

FWIW-I don't agree with group marriages under any circumstane.
I never said those religions should be banned.
I don't like any religion that considers women to be 2nd class citizens.
I'd make it about 10 seconds in a religion in which I had to cook and serve my husband and eat in another room. :banghead:

I wouldn't make it either.

Consider this, there are "Christian" churches that do not allow women to cut their hair or speak in the church. Some might consider that making women 2nd class citizens. But women growing up in those homes and attending those churches with their family consider it the norm.

Just as females from some Eastern and/or Middle eastern religions/cultures consider it the norm to marry the man her father picks.

I love that the U.S. is a multi-ethnic, multi cultural society where the rights and different lifestyle choices of our neighbors are respected.

Which doesn't make the child abuse ok. I want every man who had sex with a child to go to jail.

It will be interesting to see what we will end up with, if and when the families get sorted out through DNA.

MOO

 

[mostlylurking]

Here's a question that I haven't seen brought up yet....

Why have none of the 3 presidential candidates made no statements on this issue? Or Bush? Or have they & I've missed it?

If any of them had any guts, they'd make a statement about the situation based on principles & values. I bet they are all afraid of political fall-out if they say anything at all.

If they have made statements & I've missed it, please post them.

 

[Leila]

I posted TX law in one of these thread. Texas does legally recognize common-law marriages.

Common Law Marriage or Informal Marriage:
Texas also refers to common law marriage as an informal marriage.

For a marriage to be declared an informal marriage in Texas, a couple has two options.

1. Sign a declaration of their marriage under oath. The form is available at County Clerk's office.

The Declaration and Registration of Informal Marriage asks for full names, woman's maiden surname, addresses, dates of birth, places of birth, social security numbers, and relationship information.

The Declaration states: "I solemnly swear (or affirm) that we, the undersigned, are married to each other by virtue of the following facts: On or about (Date) we agreed to be married, and after that date we lived together as husband and wife and in this state we represented to others that we were married. Since the date of marriage to the other party I have not been married to any other person. This declaration is true and the information in it which I have given is correct."

2. Live together as husband and wife in Texas
Represent to others that they are married.
Agree with one another that they are married.

Individuals under the age of 18 may not enter into an informal marriage.

http://marriage.about.com/cs/marriagelicenses/p/texas.htm

In most states, obtaining a marriage license and marrying another while still married is considered bigamy and is punishable by law. The FLDS skirts the law by only legally marrying one wife, while acquiring many other wives through spiritual marriage.

But in the state of Texas, the state recognizes common law marriages, and under the second option, the FLDS members have violated the legal laws pertaining to marriage for that state. Not only are they living together in pleural marriages and represent that they are indeed husband and wives, but they have also "married" those under the age of 18.

Therefore, the members of the FLDS who are married, should be prosecuted for committing bigamy - polygamy, in addition to any charges that result from abuse of children.

 

[mollymalone]

Molly.............that is one powerful story! It's difficult to even imagine the abuses these children endured. It's not just sexual abuse, it's much much more.

Yes, and these excerpts bring up questions concerning those purported graveyards in Colorado City and elsewhere. Granted that people do die of old age, illness etc, but some of those graves could be children and women or men who were not allowed medical care.

http://www.slate.com/id/2189275/
Page 189: FLDS leaders don't look kindly on modern medicine. During childbirth, "a doctor was never present, nor was pain medication ever used. Women were expected to be perfectly silent during childbirth. If a woman screamed or made loud noises she was criticized for being out of control. Sometimes she'd be reprimanded by her husband during her delivery."
Page 224: One woman Carolyn knows gave birth at home and "was given an episiotomy with sewing scissors and then stitched up with dental floss."
Page 231: Uncle Rulon "began preaching that anyone who needed medical help to heal was a person of little faith. A person in harmony with God could heal him- or herself with fasting and prayer." When Carolyn's sister-wife Ruth was diagnosed with skin cancer on her nose, she tried to heal herself with chemicals from a health-food store. The chemicals burned off her nose.

Page 275: Merril blamed Carolyn when their seventh child became gravely ill: "You can take him to every damn doctor you can find, but no one will be able to heal him. God is going to destroy his life because of the sins of his mother."

This is from Rick Ross's site http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy740.html
"she couldn't accept her husband's claim that their son Harrison had been struck with cancer as God's punishment. When Carolyn made it clear she wouldn't let the tot die, Merril launched into a violent attack and threw her across the room.

Carolyn, now 39, says: "Merril's six wives had given him 54 children, none of whom were ill in any way. "Within that society, to have a frail child was frowned upon. "Merril made his outrage clear, but when I refused to sympathise, he attacked me. "He shouted that no-one would be able to heal Harrison as he had Spinal Neuroblastoma - the most aggressive form of cancer in children. "But I was determined not to let my son die." "Because of Merril my son had to be treated outside - otherwise the community would have let him die. Amazingly, Harrison was healed and is now a happy, healthy boy. It's a disgrace to think my so-called community disowned him."

 

[mollymalone]

Here's a question that I haven't seen brought up yet....

Why have none of the 3 presidential candidates made no statements on this issue? Or Bush? Or have they & I've missed it?

If any of them had any guts, they'd make a statement about the situation based on principles & values. I bet they are all afraid of political fall-out if they say anything at all.

If they have made statements & I've missed it, please post them.

I haven't heard anything, if there has been I've missed it also.

However,
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/life/religion/5713823.html
Article about Rozita Swinton and how often she's been arrested for this type of thing.

One website I went to pointed out that they had researched and found
a Rozita Swinton was an Obama Delegate. I do not vouch for this being the Rozita Swinton in question.

http://www.peakdems.org/obama_state_del.asp
Rozita Swinton an Obama Delegate

 

[Pepper]

Here's a question that I haven't seen brought up yet....

Why have none of the 3 presidential candidates made no statements on this issue? Or Bush? Or have they & I've missed it?

If any of them had any guts, they'd make a statement about the situation based on principles & values. I bet they are all afraid of political fall-out if they say anything at all.

If they have made statements & I've missed it, please post them.

I suspect PHP (political hot potato), the same reason they aren't outspoken on the immigration issue. Wimps the lot of 'em.

 

[mollymalone]

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy704.html
Sara Hammon left behind 19 mothers, 74 siblings, and a father she says could never remember her name, even though he repeatedly molested her.
Hammon was the first 14-year-old girl to successfully leave the FLDS, she said.

"There was a tremendous amount of abuse in our home," Hammon said. "It happened on a daily basis and there was all kinds: sexual, physical, emotional, mental. My brothers were sexually abusive. Some of my mothers were physically abusive." But it was her father -- an FLDS church leader -- who terrified her. He began sexually abusing her before she turned 5, Hammon said. He even tried to molest her on his deathbed when she was 13, she said. "For me, he was a very mean person. I didn't know him while we lived in the same house for 13 years and he had to ask me my name every time he saw me. "In fact, the question he would ask is, 'What is your name and who is your mother?' and that was the only way he could identify that I was his child," Hammon said.

"Warren Jeffs is just a person to focus on. This system is a well-oiled machine, there's always going to be somebody to step up and take his place. What he has done is terrible... but I know a lot of other men who were out there and in charge who did some pretty terrible things too. Nobody was paying attention then," she said."

 

[Truly]

Truly,
Good post--all well said.:clap:

(Thanks, philamena. Glow's attempt to justify child rape is just revolting to me.)

Here is the story of Agnes of France, whom Glow gave as example to insist that it is perfectly ok for young girls to get married and give birth.

Agnes of France was shipped off to be married at the age of 8 to Alexios, who was then 12. Eight was three years too young even according to 12th century law. At her marriage, her name was officially changed to Anna. The boy-ruler Alexios was murdered by the 65 year old Androikos, who then forced Anna, who was now 12, to marry him.


Sounds just like the FLDS.:sick: Of course, that was eight centuries ago. Agnes was born in 1171 and died ~1204.

 

[mostlylurking]

I haven't heard anything, if there has been I've missed it also.....
However, .... Rozita Swinton an Obama Delegate

I aw the commentary about Rozita being an Obama delegate, but that's not the same as a candidate having an opinion on the issue, nor should it be a reflection of him as a candidate.

I suspect PHP (political hot potato), the same reason they aren't outspoken on the immigration issue. Wimps the lot of 'em.

Ain't it the truth. If they had any guts, they'd at least make a comment on the whole thing. It's not like any of 'em could claim not having heard about it.......

 

[Truly]

The first ones we try to rescue off a sinking ship would be children correct? I think that is a universal viewpoint. What I was referring to is when it is determined or decided by the state. That concept is called Fascism. Very scary.

As far as the reports of waterboarding and other forms of torture, it is important to remember that none of those claims have been made on behalf of the children of YFZ itself. Former members of the Arizona and Colorado compounds have raised those issues. And the temptation seems to be to weave it all in together. As a matter of fact I first heard the term "waterboarding" here on WS. another titillating and inflammatory term that flies in the face of the statements by experts.

:bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: Here ya go, Glow, since you asked. :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

Child Sexual Abuse is titillating???, and Child Protective Services is Fascist????? Give me a break.