Warren Jeffs FLDS compound in Texas surrounded by police #5

[mollymalone]

That's what I figured. Why do the FLDS parents expect more than any other parent gets from the system once the children are taken?

They're trying to take advantage of any possible avenue they can. They think they should be treated special because they are being "persecuted." I agree with FlowerChild, it isn't going to happen fast. If they can't be bothered to step up to the plate and verify which child is BIOLOGICALLY theirs, then they obviously don't care enough about the child/children as they claim. The more they hamper the investigation by their piddly arsed games with names, birthdates etc. the less likely they're going to achieve their goals.

 

[mollymalone]

Thanks Molly.............I know the rule of thumb is that most prisoners do not get a parole the first time before a parole board, and some may go through many parole hearings before finally getting parole. I hope that in this case, the state of Utah will keep Warren Jeffs for many years.

If not Utah perhaps AZ. Even if he serves the full two five year terms thats 10, he was 51? when sentenced. That puts him at 71, he'd still be a serious threat to the sect's welfare. Add in any sentence he might get in AZ that could keep him in prison for life.

He was sentenced to two consecutive 5 year terms to life. Does that mean the state of Utah could keep him for life, denying parole even if he beats the rap in AZ?

EDITED TO ADD: Answered my own question!! "11/20/2007: Warren Jeffs was sentenced to two consecutive prison terms of five years to life. "It will be up to the Utah parole board to decide how long he actually stays behind bars." Source: SFGate.com"

 

[Floh]

Have the FLDS members who reportedly left Eldorado now turned up again?

 

[mollymalone]

Well geeze - he has only 40 or so wives now - did he give some away? Put some "out to pasture"? I mean what do you do with ones "old wives"? The one he got arrested with was only in her mid-30's - probably "middle aged" in the FLDS World. Maybe like horses, you "stable" the young fillies with an experienced "brood mare" to keep them calm and "sweet" in your absence. SNIP

I read that the older wives who were no longer in favor concentrated on their husband's ascendancy. The (legal) first wives wield the most power over the other wives and there is jockeying for position between the others. Your analogy is pretty apt. That's why we saw the most trusted women spinning the pr. They can be trusted not to bolt from the stable and to tell on the others if they stop being "sweet."

Found this:
"Although the actual number of wives is unknown, it is estimated that Warren Steed Jeffs has between 40 and 70 wives. It is believed that approximately 12 of these women were married to his father. It is thought that Jeffs has approximately 56 children."

 

[Leila]

My question about the appeal is what happens in the thousands of cases where children are removed from their homes by CPS? I thought there was a hearing. The problem is they don't know which child belongs to which parents until the DNA comes back and that's the parents' fault. Things would be much better if each set of parents had claimed their own children. Then individual allegations could be made.

What do y'all think of this appeal?

How can there be any individual hearings if the FLDS won't cooperate in the DNA testing?

Even in the short history of this case, the FLDS has been uncooperative. The women who initially accompanied the children refused to give accurate information and were in contact with the men via cell phone as to what they should say.

I feel the state of Texas and CPS is doing the right thing in demanding DNA testing to assure that if any children were to be returned, they're returned to the parents and not some "caretaker." There's just too many reports of children who were sent, without their parents, to the YFZ ranch and place in the care of other families there.

 

[mollymalone]

In most of the pics I've seen of Jeffs he's got a semi-smirk on his face but this is the first time I'd run across one where he's smiling. Since he's dealing with apostates his smile looks like it's one of those cheesy fake ones. IMO
http://i.abcnews.com/TheLaw/story?id=3656629&page=1

 

[SewingDeb]

Have the FLDS members who reportedly left Eldorado now turned up again?

Who knows? I'm not even sure they left or if those were rumors.

The attorneys are doing the appeals.

 

[SewingDeb]

Leila and Flowerchild, you both think like me on this issue. They should have claimed their children from the beginning without the lies.

 

[mollymalone]

It's reasonable to assume that some of the men may have quietly slipped away to other areas especially if they are among those who are well aware of the possibility of being prosecuted for various issues. The men that we've seen or heard from on tv or in articles don't seem to be anyone among the upper hierarchy. Merrill Jessop or the rest seem to be absent. Whether they are still on the ranch or not remains to be seen. I'd be interested to see a count of those those who were ordered to submit to DNA and how many of them did.

"Warren Jeffs scattered and mixed up hundreds of women and children — taking more than 20 of the younger girls for himself."

 

[gitana1]

Check out this link. Hopefully no one has posted it and I'm not just repeating. It's a strange remix of the polygamist women talking to the media. Very catchy and funny but with some inexplicable president Bush references. Anyhow, I thought it was hilarious:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tICf7MaXyKs

 

[Leila]

Question for all...................

I think we're all agreed that this case is likely to be lengthy. The children removed from the YFZ ranch in Texas are likely to remain in the custody of the state for a long time pending investigations and hearings.

There's children of all ages in the state's custody, ranging from newborn up to age 18. Let's hypothetically say the children are in the care of the state for a least a year.

What will happen if during that time some of the children decide they don't want to return to the FLDS? They may miss their mothers but enjoy the freedoms they experience in the outside world. I think this may be especially true of young teens. Younger children will easily adapt to outside influences too.

 

[gitana1]

ljwf22: I think the redhead is one of Merril Jessop's daughter. I saw Carolyn Jessop on tv talking about her and identifying her as such. I believe she might be one of Warren's wives. I think that Carolyn said Merril married her off to Jeffs, but I'm not sure.

 

[FlowerChild]

Have the FLDS members who reportedly left Eldorado now turned up again?

At last report about 2 dozen of the FLDS members have appeared in Eldorado for DNA testing - out of what - well over 100 adults? So no, it appears that right now the majority are not "there" - where they are might be the better question. And will THEY (the FLDS Members) show up in court, or just their LAWYERS? It's like they want all of this "action" but only if they don't have to appear in person to facilitate it. I don't think they accept that this isn't something they can do from afar and maintain their "privacy" and segregation from the outside world. They seem to do a lot of TALKING and posting online and appearing in the media when it suits their needs (and they can control it) but when they have to step up and face real questions - and provide FACTUAL, VERIFIABLE answers, they retreat into their shells and whine about persecution and DO NOTHING.

The majority of FLDS members from YFZ Ranch have apparently scattered - to somewhere. I am sure ONLY the members who they are SURE have no "issues" remain at the Ranch. The FLDS will use those members to try and ramrod the authorities - but it isn't going to resolve more than a few of the custody/parental issues. The remaining members cannot do anything to change the results for the REST of the members who cannot (or will not) stand up and be DNA tested. I can almost guarantee that the FLDS is trying it's hardest to get BIO PARENTS lined up for the hearings - even if they had to MOVE THEM IN from other compounds. Again - they will use lies and deceit to attempt to manipulate the authorities. The mothers will come forward and present the "fathers" of their kids, even if she hasn't lived with him for years and is now "married/sealed" to some child rapist. And as soon as "they" get custody - all bets are off as to where the kids actually live and with whom. There are dozens of children who have been removed from their bio parents and given to FLDS members at YFZ - those kids may not have any memory of their actual mothers/fathers at ALL. It would be like giving the kids to total strangers. This whole thing is going to turn into a clusterfunk because NOTHING about these people is NORMAL. And NOTHING they say can be trusted. Think about it - do you know ANY children who are able to SPEAK and who have supposedly been residing with their FAMILY who cannot readily identify a "mommy" or "daddy"? Come on!

This situation will rewrite the book on such organizations and child custody issues. The wrappings have been ripped off and the festering underneath is no doubt going to CONTINUE to defy all known standards for a long time. I just PRAY that this will FINALLY get the PTB to shut down these folks for good! This is AMERICA and we can no longer ignore such abuses of CHILDREN because their parents are allowed hide ABUSE behind religion and doctrine. I don't CARE what adults do, believe, worship or how many people they marry or if they live in a tent wearing sackcloth - if it's LEGAL, go for it! I DO CARE if they abuse their children and rape girls in the name of God! We cannot allow vulnerable, brainwashed, "trained" children to be returned to such a life and their participating parents...period.

My Opinion

 

[gitana1]

Leila: I think it is a good possibility that some, if not many of the kids will not want to return. The picture painted of this cult is of children who experience little affection and warmth from anyone, little attention from adults except to "discipline", virtually no free play, and tons of hard, hard work. I also want to talk about diet here. I have heard references in the media to the healthy, wholesome diet of these people. I even heard someone say "organic". But that is not some ex-members say. In Escape, for example, Carolyn Jessops describes a dismal diet in Merril Jesopp's home. I'm sure that's not true for all, but I have not heard of any natural or organic diet restrictions among this group. I heard they eat what is available.

 

[mollymalone]

There are huge orchards and fields that the women and children work in and part of their diet comes from those but their men do bring in goods from outside and they have their own store where they can shop for items.
I did read however from several women who'd left and they all say that if the husband decides he's having a restaurant meal out then the women and children do without or make do with little. The first wife and her children get new shoes, clothes etc and the other wives and children again make do because their money is being paid over to the husband.

Some of those children will be turning 18 either shortly or by the time their turn to go to court comes up and they'll at least have the opportunity to decide for themselves where/what they wish to do. The other children, I don't think many of them will be returning. (Those for whom abuse can be proven or those who are considered abandoned if the parents don't come forward or are considered unsuitable)

My question is, if a lawyer has a young client who wishes NOT to return, will they push for that child's wishes or will they be bamboozled by the so called parents? Some of them seem to have sided with the parents already after their one trip out to the ranch to see living conditions.

 

[DawnTCB]

I don't CARE what adults do, believe, worship or how many people they marry or if they live in a tent wearing sackcloth - if it's LEGAL, go for it! I DO CARE if they abuse their children and rape girls in the name of God! We cannot allow vulnerable, brainwashed, "trained" children to be returned to such a life and their participating parents...period.

I agree with everything you say, and I have one additional point... It is not ok with me if these women (over 18) are defining themselves as "spiritually married" in their personal life but "unemployed single mothers" on their welfare forms. First of all, it seems fraudulent to me - are you married and cared for by your husband or are you not? Can you just change sides when it suits you? Secondly, while I am not a person who frets over where every one of my tax dollars goes to, I do not think it is appropriate for anyone's tax dollars to subsidize a religious community. They can send my tax dollars to help schools, roads, people struck by disaster, but if I want to contribute to a religious group I need to make that decision on my own.

 

[Leila]

The judge's order was for 175 adults to be DNA tested. All others, outside the order, were asked to voluntarily give DNA in an effort to sort out the identities.

With less than two dozen adults showing up for the DNA tests, I don't think the state can possibly more forward with positive identifications of the children. So this will impede the hearings going forth.

I agree with Flower Child and others that those men who fathered children with underage girls have removed themselves from the ranch and are in hiding. Cowards!

 

[Mygirlsadie]

I wonder why they are in hiding if they ''thought'' what they were doing was right? They had no idea it was illegal my BIG BUTT!!

The judge's order was for 175 adults to be DNA tested. All others, outside the order, were asked to voluntarily give DNA in an effort to sort out the identities.

With less than two dozen adults showing up for the DNA tests, I don't think the state can possibly more forward with positive identifications of the children. So this will impede the hearings going forth.

I agree with Flower Child and others that those men who fathered children with underage girls have removed themselves from the ranch and are in hiding. Cowards!

 

[southcitymom]

.....My question is, if a lawyer has a young client who wishes NOT to return, will they push for that child's wishes or will they be bamboozled by the so called parents? Some of them seem to have sided with the parents already after their one trip out to the ranch to see living conditions.

If the parent has not been deemed unfit, the child will go where the parents go - that is the law and it is a good one. The government does not get to decide what is best for the child - the parent does.

 

[Mygirlsadie]

Eww he looks deformed or like there might be a little something wrong with him? (besides the obvious lol) Then again all the women I been seeing on TV look sick too. They look terrible. I think they need vitamins or something? Maybe it's the in-breeding.

In most of the pics I've seen of Jeffs he's got a semi-smirk on his face but this is the first time I'd run across one where he's smiling. Since he's dealing with apostates his smile looks like it's one of those cheesy fake ones. IMO
http://i.abcnews.com/TheLaw/story?id=3656629&page=1