Was a stun gun used in the crime or not

[midwest mama]

However If I am reading correctly, There was no pictures of O gauge in the basement the day of the crime? Just because they had it in 93 would that mean they had it in 96? I don't know.

OMG Scarlett! Why do there have to be pictures taken the day of the crime of O gauge track in the basement? For all we know, there could be and they have not been released to the public. Or, there may be photos taken the day of the crime showing the O gauge track in another room. It would only take one piece of that track to be picked up and poked into a child, and it could have been done anywhere in the house, with a piece of the track being very portable.

With all deference, I challenge any model train enthusiasts to post in as to the likelihood of receiving the toys as a Christmas gift and getting rid of them within 3 years. My own sons had model trains as kids and once they got started they added to and collected pieces for years. Their train sets didn't leave the house until after they did by heading off to college. And they weren't happy about seeing them go at that!

Burke was an enthusiast, IIRC, and we know he had more than one set in different locations in the house. Looking at the odds, until we could get corroboration from someone OTHER than Kolar, since you choose to discount his credibility in exposing the O track scenario, I would have to go with the photo evidence we DO have in the video of that track having been in the Ramsey home at the time of JB's death.

I would have to learn of sworn testimony from someone that they knew there WASN'T O gauge track in the house in 1996 before I could question what is evident in the photos and Kolar's theory about it. :moo:

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

OMG Scarlett! Why do there have to be pictures taken the day of the crime of O gauge track in the basement? For all we know, there could be and they have not been released to the public. Or, there may be photos taken the day of the crime showing the O gauge track in another room. It would only take one piece of that track to be picked up and poked into a child, and it could have been done anywhere in the house, with a piece of the track being very portable.



With all deference, I challenge any model train enthusiasts to post in as to the likelihood of receiving the toys as a Christmas gift and getting rid of them within 3 years. My own sons had model trains as kids and once they got started they added to and collected pieces for years. Their train sets didn't leave the house until after they did by heading off to college. And they weren't happy about seeing them go at that!



Burke was an enthusiast, IIRC, and we know he had more than one set in different locations in the house. Looking at the odds, until we could get corroboration from someone OTHER than Kolar, since you choose to discount his credibility in exposing the O track scenario, I would have to go with the photo evidence we DO have in the video of that track having been in the Ramsey home at the time of JB's death.



I would have to learn of sworn testimony from someone that they knew there WASN'T O gauge track in the house in 1996 before I could question what is evident in the photos and Kolar's theory about it. :moo:

Just because they had it at one time does not mean they still had it. There was lots of evidence photos and video taken yes? So is there photos of that day, or video that shows O gauge in the house on that day? It's pretty darn important. Saying it was one time there and therefore could have or must have been used to hurt jbr is nothing more than a fantasy without some kind of proof.




Forgive the autocorrect. Tapatalk has a mind of its own.

 

[otg]

This is what happens when we allow ourselves to get sidetracked. The original question about the “O” versus “HO” gauge train tracks was whether or not the investigators knew the difference and whether or not the “O” gauge track was even in the Ramsey house. Go back and read beginning on Page 14 of this thread at Anti-K’s post where he said the following (snipped and bbm):

Did the Ramseys have “0” scale track? We can see track in the Dailybeast video, but that track is clearly HO scale. For those who don’t know, HO scale is, and has been since the sixties, the most popular and commonly seen scale, and it is much smaller in size (two pins, not three). So, it’s nice that Kolar believes he made a significant discovery in the case, but where is the evidence that “0” scale track was even in the Ramsey home?

Then the entire discussion went back and forth about whether the tracks shown in the DB video were actually “O” or “HO”, and whether or not there might be other train sets elsewhere in the house. Finally, midwest mama finds in a video where it is shown clearly that Burke is playing with a brand new “O” scale train set (so clearly that Anti-K agrees), and the question then becomes whether or not any parts of it existed in the house three years later? Really?

Just because they had it at one time does not mean they still had it. There was lots of evidence photos and video taken yes? So is there photos of that day, or video that shows O gauge in the house on that day? It's pretty darn important. Saying it was one time there and therefore could have or must have been used to hurt jbr is nothing more than a fantasy without some kind of proof.

The thing is, we don’t have access to all the evidence. The people who worked on this case do (or did). We won’t be getting that evidence, so that’s the only thing that can be done now to try and discredit Kolar’s theory about the track is ask now for absolute proof that it still existed at the time of JonBenet’s death (knowing we don’t have access to all the evidence).

Are we truly looking at the evidence we have access to with an unbiased eye, or are we simply looking for excuses?

C’mon... Is there an emoticon for grasping at straws?

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

No, we are not accusing Kolar of being a liar, and we are not accusing Harry of stealing evidence. We are in fact making the point that Harry did NOT have evidence and he did not send Kolar evidence and Kolar did not compare evidence.

However, Kolar does very clearly state that “0” scale track was found in the Ramsey home (photo caption, P. 386). He knows this because he saw it “depicted in the crime scene video of the basement play room.” P. 384

You can look at that video here http://tinyurl.com/8x5cp5a Go to the 25 second mark. See the model railroad track on the floor? That sure looks like HO scale track to me. The electrical cord running over the floor gives you a sense of scale, and can you see a third rail? No.

As an aside: Harry was assigned to keeping an eye on Pasta Jay in the early days of the investigation, so before retirement Harry was in the BPD/Ramsey jurisdiction.
...

AK

This is what happens when we allow ourselves to get sidetracked. The original question about the “O” versus “HO” gauge train tracks was whether or not the investigators knew the difference and whether or not the “O” gauge track was even in the Ramsey house. Go back and read beginning on Page 14 of this thread at Anti-K’s post where he said the following (snipped and bbm):


Then the entire discussion went back and forth about whether the tracks shown in the DB video were actually “O” or “HO”, and whether or not there might be other train sets elsewhere in the house. Finally, midwest mama finds in a video where it is shown clearly that Burke is playing with a brand new “O” scale train set (so clearly that Anti-K agrees), and the question then becomes whether or not any parts of it existed in the house three years later? Really?


The thing is, we don’t have access to all the evidence. The people who worked on this case do (or did). We won’t be getting that evidence, so that’s the only thing that can be done now to try and discredit Kolar’s theory about the track is ask now for absolute proof that it still existed at the time of JonBenet’s death (knowing we don’t have access to all the evidence).

Are we truly looking at the evidence we have access to with an unbiased eye, or are we simply looking for excuses?

C’mon... Is there an emoticon for grasping at straws?

In the quote above you it says that Kolar said there was O gauge found in the playroom. The evidence video shows that it was NOT O gauge. Obviously.

So how does one make a theory of O gauge being used when there is none there? To me this clearly shows a different train track in use, which then leads me to ask as a thorough thinker, What proof is there that there was O gauge in the house that very day?

Just because they had O gauge 3 Christmases ago does not mean they still had it. We have gone through 4 trains in 9 years. All different. I don't have any of the track from the old trains, Only the current trains.

It seems to me to be an obvious observation and question to ask for proof of the train track from that day since it is what he based his theory on. JMO

 

[bettybaby00]

This is what happens when we allow ourselves to get sidetracked. The original question about the “O” versus “HO” gauge train tracks was whether or not the investigators knew the difference and whether or not the “O” gauge track was even in the Ramsey house.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

If we are not going to discuss the evidence and real facts, Then what is the point at all?

It should all be about the facts of what happened that horrible day to JBR. IMO anyway.

 

[Heymom]

Why was this thread bumped? I see that supposedly there was a new post last night but the last one is from 2014.

 

[singularity]

Why was this thread bumped? I see that supposedly there was a new post last night but the last one is from 2014.

It's a glitch. I've noticed it happen several times over the past few months. It happened once with one of my posts. It showed up as a new post even though it was about a month old.

 

[madeleine]

It is a poll. It bumps whenever there's a new vote.

 

[PositiveLight]

Why was this thread bumped? I see that supposedly there was a new post last night but the last one is from 2014.

I noticed that too!I was like wth am I missing??? lol

 

[Heymom]

It is a poll. It bumps whenever there's a new vote.

I see, so someone found the thread and voted on the poll and that's why it bumped. I hope Scarlett Scarpetta got banned somewhere along the way...talk about a Ramsey apologist...

 

[kanzz]

For the benefit of those who are new to the case.

BR's train tracks were the "O" scale. The middle pin was known to fall out easily.

BPD's evidence photo:

C/P from the "BREAKING NEWS: New DNA Analysis Suggests Family Should NOT Have Been Cleared" thread - thanks, DeDee:

I seem to recall doing a study on Burke's electric train for WS so it's here somewhere! The Lionel style train Burke owned was designed by Neil Young and it's inaugural debut.

Neil is the father of children with disabilities. He invented this particular train for his disabled son. He owned part or most of Lionel RR. It is quite a fascinating story. Might be quicker to read about it on Wikipedia under Lionel, Neil Young keywords, if you are interested. In fact, it seems Neil Young may still own part of the famous company.
<snipped for pertinence to this thread>

Here's what I found on wikipedia regarding Neil Young's Lionel train invention:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trainm...ommand_Control

"Trainmaster Command (TMCC) is Lionel's electronic control system for O scale 3-rail model trains and toy trains that mainly ran from 1994 to 2006."
(BBM)Which is the O-type of track pictured above. (as Kolar said)

 

[Heymom]

Thank you for that post, kanzz.

 

[Ambitioned]

I see, so someone found the thread and voted on the poll and that's why it bumped. I hope Scarlett Scarpetta got banned somewhere along the way...talk about a Ramsey apologist...

She sounded like one of Jameson's alter egos

 

[otg]

I’m going to post a response to your following post on this thread to keep it on topic.

So far, I find myself disagreeing with a lot of things LS claimed. Like I said, I'm RDI, and nothing he's really said has changed that. The one thing I will say about his stun-gun theory is that, the markings on JBR's face do look a lot like the ones they compared to the deceased old man's face, where the one terminal didn't quite contact the flesh and therefore left a bigger, circular bruise on one "dot" compared to the other. I can't simply deny that, because they do look a lot alike. Where I disagree with him though is that a stun-gun would be used by an intruder to kidnap her. That doesn't make much sense to me and would be all but completely unnecessary to need a stun-gun to kidnap a 6 year old girl -- perhaps if you were trying to kidnap an adult, but even then, it's far-fetched to me.

So far, my leaning on it (if I have to choose a side) is that I don't definitively believe it's a stun-gun, but I also don't definitively believe it's the railroad track either. Just my opinion.

Userid, forgive us if it seems we have little patience for nubes when they ask questions about things that have been discussed, cussed, hashed, and rehashed for 20 years. I’m guilty too of sometimes showing too little patience with others about things that the old-timers have pretty much decided on as unquestionable. There are plenty of threads where these things have all been discussed, but I realize that because of the voluminous number of pages it’s difficult to read everything before asking a question. As an example, here’s a post by Tricia, the owner of this forum (and its sister site, FFJ) about the stun gun theory from 2004:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-used-in-the-crime-or-not&p=392049#post392049


Now, as to your point about the similarity between the injuries on JonBenet’s cheek and a certain photo that nearly everyone has seen... This often gets brought up by someone who has seen the picture of a dead man named Gerald Boggs who was known to have been hit with a stun gun before he was murdered. But unless you dig a little deeper, you won’t know the facts behind that photo. (I don’t like to post photos like this without a warning, but in this case I think you need to see it, so anyone reading this can consider you’ve been forewarned.) Like so many things that we lose our patience over, this was all posted not too long ago to another poster’s questions. Here is a photo of the man I’m sure you must be referring to:

But that photo was taken when his body had been exhumed after being buried for eight months. Next is a side-by-side comparison of a close-up of that injury with a photo of the same injury which was taken during the initial autopsy before he was buried.

You can see that the initial injury looks nothing like the injury on JonBenet’s cheek. This information and more about the stun gun theory can be found here:

http://gemart.8m.com/ramsey/stungun.html


Now that you’ve read this, I expect that the next time someone new comes here and asks about it, you will be the poster who answers their question and passes this information on to them. (I’ll be reading, even if I don’t always post.)


BTW, one more thing I have to say is that I hope your password is not as obvious as your username. If it is, I hope also that you change it as soon as you read this.:winko:

 

[Heymom]

She sounded like one of Jameson's alter egos

I never think of it, but it could still be lurking around here.

 

[Userid]

I&#8217;m going to post a response to your following post on this thread to keep it on topic.



Userid, forgive us if it seems we have little patience for nubes when they ask questions about things that have been discussed, cussed, hashed, and rehashed for 20 years. I&#8217;m guilty too of sometimes showing too little patience with others about things that the old-timers have pretty much decided on as unquestionable. There are plenty of threads where these things have all been discussed, but I realize that because of the voluminous number of pages it&#8217;s difficult to read everything before asking a question. As an example, here&#8217;s a post by Tricia, the owner of this forum (and its sister site, FFJ) about the stun gun theory from 2004:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-used-in-the-crime-or-not&p=392049#post392049


Now, as to your point about the similarity between the injuries on JonBenet&#8217;s cheek and a certain photo that nearly everyone has seen... This often gets brought up by someone who has seen the picture of a dead man named Gerald Boggs who was known to have been hit with a stun gun before he was murdered. But unless you dig a little deeper, you won&#8217;t know the facts behind that photo. (I don&#8217;t like to post photos like this without a warning, but in this case I think you need to see it, so anyone reading this can consider you&#8217;ve been forewarned.) Like so many things that we lose our patience over, this was all posted not too long ago to another poster&#8217;s questions. Here is a photo of the man I&#8217;m sure you must be referring to:

But that photo was taken when his body had been exhumed after being buried for eight months. Next is a side-by-side comparison of a close-up of that injury with a photo of the same injury which was taken during the initial autopsy before he was buried.

You can see that the initial injury looks nothing like the injury on JonBenet&#8217;s cheek. This information and more about the stun gun theory can be found here:

http://gemart.8m.com/ramsey/stungun.html


Now that you&#8217;ve read this, I expect that the next time someone new comes here and asks about it, you will be the poster who answers their question and passes this information on to them. (I&#8217;ll be reading, even if I don&#8217;t always post.)


BTW, one more thing I have to say is that I hope your password is not as obvious as your username. If it is, I hope also that you change it as soon as you read this.:winko:

Thanks OTG, I will certainly try to point a new poster to this exact post, but I doubt I will remember where it is in all honesty -- as you say, it's incredibly difficult to keep track of this forum and the ever-changing threads. And yes, my password isn't as obvious as my username, haha!

I see your reasoning and the page you linked makes a good argument. Personally, the page proves more that the particular brand of stun gun especially didn't create the marks. The facial markings and coloring of the fresh wound are also interesting, but I would wonder when the "fresh wound" picture of the man was taken compared to when JBR's picture was taken, and what his level of decomposition was when his picture was taken (i.e. if it were comparable to JBR's, who had already shown signs of rigor and been deceased for quite some time/hours). I'm just curious how much decomposition would have an effect and how fast -- I'm not doctor so I certainly wouldn't know.

But yes, I agree that it most likely wasn't a stun gun. The one question I still have though is that "bruise-like" circular wound on JBR's face and what caused that.

 

[otg]

Thanks OTG, I will certainly try to point a new poster to this exact post, but I doubt I will remember where it is in all honesty -- as you say, it's incredibly difficult to keep track of this forum and the ever-changing threads. And yes, my password isn't as obvious as my username, haha!

That's fine if you don't want to bookmark the post. In fact, I'd prefer you didn't simply point to it for someone else. You know the facts now -- you inform the nubes.

I see your reasoning and the page you linked makes a good argument. Personally, the page proves more that the particular brand of stun gun especially didn't create the marks.

That particular brand was used in the demo because that is the brand that Lou Smit said was the only one that "fit" JonBenet's injuries. But even ignoring the prong distance, there is so much more that disproves his "stun gun theory." Smit also claimed that blue marks were left on her skin by the blue spark between the prongs? Really? :lol:

The facial markings and coloring of the fresh wound are also interesting, but I would wonder when the "fresh wound" picture of the man was taken compared to when JBR's picture was taken, and what his level of decomposition was when his picture was taken (i.e. if it were comparable to JBR's, who had already shown signs of rigor and been deceased for quite some time/hours). I'm just curious how much decomposition would have an effect and how fast -- I'm not doctor so I certainly wouldn't know.

I'm not a doctor either, and I don't even have any kind of medical background beyond what I've read since getting interested in this case. But I know that in Boggs' case, the initial photos were taken during the autopsy within a day or so after his body had been found -- just like the injuries found on JonBenet. So the time comparison should be approximately the same. The photo showing the darkened wound was taken eight months after his body had been embalmed (the reason there is less decomposition than one might expect) and buried. That photo is the one that is often incorrectly compared to the injury on JonBenet's face.

But yes, I agree that it most likely wasn't a stun gun. The one question I still have though is that "bruise-like" circular wound on JBR's face and what caused that.

Well... I have a theory on that (if my assumption is correct that you are referring to what Dr. Meyer called the "roughly triangular, parchment-like rust colored abrasion" on her throat in the AR). If you haven't seen it, I'll give you a link. Unfortunately, most of the photo links I used no longer work. But if you read over it, you can look up the terms for current photos. If you can't find them, let me know and I'll locate and post them. Here's the thread:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...gular-parchment-like-rust-colored-abrasion%94

 

[BOESP]

<snipped for focus>The one question I still have though is that "bruise-like" circular wound on JBR's face and what caused that.

Some have speculated the circular wound was made by Patsy Ramsey's ring pressing into JonBenet's face or, perhaps, a snap closure.

 

[kanzz]

Thanks OTG, I will certainly try to point a new poster to this exact post, but I doubt I will remember where it is in all honesty -- as you say, it's incredibly difficult to keep track of this forum and the ever-changing threads. And yes, my password isn't as obvious as my username, haha!I see your reasoning and the page you linked makes a good argument. Personally, the page proves more that the particular brand of stun gun especially didn't create the marks. The facial markings and coloring of the fresh wound are also interesting, but I would wonder when the "fresh wound" picture of the man was taken compared to when JBR's picture was taken, and what his level of decomposition was when his picture was taken (i.e. if it were comparable to JBR's, who had already shown signs of rigor and been deceased for quite some time/hours). I'm just curious how much decomposition would have an effect and how fast -- I'm not doctor so I certainly wouldn't know.But yes, I agree that it most likely wasn't a stun gun. The one question I still have though is that "bruise-like" circular wound on JBR's face and what caused that.

To save a link to a post or book mark it, click on the post number in the upper right - on the top bar. To copy the link address, right click on the post number. In tapatalk, tap the post, tap the 3 dots in the upper right, and there you have options.HTH