Was a stun gun used in the crime or not

[Venom]

http://gemart.8m.com/ramsey/stungun.html

 

[otg]

May as well look at what BPD was looking at:

 

[Mama2JML]

Unfortunately, we will never know with 100% certainty what caused those marks. I'll go with the opinion of the only board certified medical examiner to examine the body. ...with whom Deters and Doberson concur.

PMPT. (p. 431):

"When they had gathered sufficient information, Ainsworth, Pete Hofstrom, Trip DeMuth, and Detective Sgt. Wickman met with the coroner, John Meyer. After reviewing the photos and this new information, Meyer concluded that the injuries on JonBenet's face and back were, in fact, consistent with those produced by a stun gun.

Ainsworth met with Dr. Robert Deters a pathologist on the case of a 13 month old girl from Larimer County who had been murdered in 1988. Deters examined the photos of JBR and agreed that the marks were consistent with a stun gun injury but he did not think the body had to be exhumed. Deters believed that nothing more could be learned by examing the skin tissue."​

(Schiller, 1999)

 

[ZBob]

I apologize for how this might read and it is not directed at anyone in general but is related to sometimes how these topics seem to go.

Here is something we know about the stun gun theory:

We know that the specific stun gun model that was part of Lou Smits theory was in fact not used as a weapon on JBR. The measurements of the stun prongs of the specific weapon identified don't match the abrasions on her body. The manufacturer stated that clearly at the time this was all being developed and presented as a theory.

Not surprisingly, no one has yet produced a specific stun gun model that is actually manufactured with prongs that do match the measurements.

I guess it is theoretically possible that the perpetrator performed some after market modifications to the stun prongs before it was used which account for the different measurements so therefor we can't completely rule out the stun gun theory. Also, it is possibly likely that Lou Smit and team didn't feel the need to spend the time to research and find one that matches because that kind of precise detail wasn't necessary given the overall bunging of this within the DA's office anyway and therefor we can't rule out that there is actually one that matches.

I hope the circular nature of my comments make the point.

 

[questfortrue]

I apologize for how this might read and it is not directed at anyone in general but is related to sometimes how these topics seem to go.

Here is something we know about the stun gun theory:

We know that the specific stun gun model that was part of Lou Smits theory was in fact not used as a weapon on JBR. The measurements of the stun prongs of the specific weapon identified don't match the abrasions on her body. The manufacturer stated that clearly at the time this was all being developed and presented as a theory.

Not surprisingly, no one has yet produced a specific stun gun model that is actually manufactured with prongs that do match the measurements.

I guess it is theoretically possible that the perpetrator performed some after market modifications to the stun prongs before it was used which account for the different measurements so therefor we can't completely rule out the stun gun theory. Also, it is possibly likely that Lou Smit and team didn't feel the need to spend the time to research and find one that matches because that kind of precise detail wasn't necessary given the overall bunging of this within the DA's office anyway and therefor we can't rule out that there is actually one that matches.

I hope the circular nature of my comments make the point.

According to our fearless leader Tricia, only exhumation would have proven it.
The Rs refused to allow JB's body to be exhumed.
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8482"]ABRASIONS ARE NOT STUN GUN MARKS (but feel free to exhume and prove otherwise.... - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I believe it was a stun gun. I believe that makes sense with the crime. JMO

 

[TroyinTX]

The stun gun is as big of fantasy as the "unknown intruder."

 

[Nom de plume]

Oh brother! Here we go again. :facepalm:

 

[Mama2JML]

I believe it was a stun gun. I believe that makes sense with the crime. JMO

Thats the consensus among the reputable experts involved in the investigation; Dr. Meyer, Dr . Doberson, Dr. Deters, Lou Smit, Robert Whitson, & John Douglas. There isn't a consensus as far as what might have made the marks from the opposing side. The BPD refused to exhume the body, so I guess we'll never know for sure. Chances are the greater likelihood rests with the majority consensus including the medical examiner that conducted the autopsy.

 

[ZBob]

Thats the consensus among the reputable experts involved in the investigation; Dr. Meyer, Dr . Doberson, Dr. Deters, Lou Smit, Robert Whitson, & John Douglas. There isn't a consensus as far as what might have made the marks from the opposing side. The BPD refused to exhume the body, so I guess we'll never know for sure. Chances are the greater likelihood rests with the majority consensus including the medical examiner that conducted the autopsy.

The parents would not consent to exhuming the body is my understanding.

 

[Mama2JML]

The parents would not consent to exhuming the body is my understanding.

Not exactly. Consent was not required, nor was it necessary. I don't believe LE even asked the Ramseys?...

The DA favored exhumation, as did Lou Smit, but the BPD was in control. According to PMPT (p. 453/614 Nook), "The police had no plans to exhume the body." (Schiller, 1999)

 

[Venom]

-Mike Dobersen: "My experiments, and the observations that we made and all the work that's been done, I feel that I can testify to a reasonably degree of medical certainty that these are stun gun injuries."

He never examined the body, only looked at photographs of the body. Which he himself makes the claim that you can't really tell from a photograph. So which is it?

"They came over and showed me some pictures from the (Ramsey) autopsy and asked for my opinion, whether they could be stun gun injuries," Dobersen recalled. "I told them that they could be; that was a possibility. But there were a lot of things they could do to narrow down the possibilities of what it could be."
Dobersen told Boulder investigators to do what The New Yorker reports they eventually did - measure the distance between the wounds and compare that to stun guns.

"Besides", he added, "the only definitive way to tell if electrocution was involved in JonBenet's death is to re-examine her body and look for very characteristic changes in skin tissue."

"You really can't tell from a photo," Dobersen said.

(The Boulder Daily Camera - January 13, 1998)

-Doberson noted that any stun-gun wounds on JonBenet would not have been lethal. "There's some danger in making a decision based on photographs without having talked to the people who did the autopsy and who saw the injuries," he said.
http://gemart.8m.com/ramsey/stungun.html
[ame="http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41087"]Facts about the Stun gun - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]
http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/ramsey/theory_8b.html

 

[DeeDee249]

The parents did refuse an exhumation, but the DA could have gotten a warrant for it anyway. He also refused. No surprise there.

 

[chlban]

Mama2JML;10207407]Thats the consensus among the reputable experts involved in the investigation; Dr. Meyer, Dr . Doberson, Dr. Deters, Lou Smit, Robert Whitson, & John Douglas. There isn't a consensus as far as what might have made the marks from the opposing side. The BPD refused to exhume the body, so I guess we'll never know for sure. Chances are the greater likelihood rests with the majority consensus including the medical examiner that conducted the autopsy

BBM. I guess that depends on your definition of reputable. There are plenty of people that believe John Douglas sold his previous reputation to the Ramseys. I certainly do.

I think Lou Smit actually believed his nonsensical theory, unlike JD who I believe knows full well his is BS. However, Smit was really getting up there when he was on this case. Perhaps all his faculties were no longer firing on all cylinders.

I just cannot imagine how any one can view not only the evidence in this case, but the actions of John and Patsy and believe that there was some "unknown intruder".

 

[Anyhoo]

I believe it was a stun gun. I believe that makes sense with the crime. JMO

This does not surprise me.

 

[MeanDonnaJean]

I've just sifted thru only the first five pages of comments here and so far am somewhat amazed at the fact that nobody has yet mentioned the "O" type train track theory in Chapter 33 ("SBP and Beyond") of Kolar's book "Foreign Faction" (see photos 29 & 30).

I hope I have just overlooked it/them.

I'm stickin' with Kolar

 

[Nom de plume]

I've just sifted thru only the first five pages of comments here and so far am somewhat amazed at the fact that nobody has yet mentioned the "O" type train track theory in Chapter 33 ("SBP and Beyond") of Kolar's book "Foreign Faction" (see photos 29 & 30).

I hope I have just overlooked it/them.

I'm stickin' with Kolar

It has been discussed, although I'm not sure which thread. I agree with JK as well. The marks match, and if the track was plugged in, could produce the burn like marks found on JB's body. These marks are also visible in photos of her from earlier.

 

[Scandigirl]

Just wondering if anyone's familiar with a picture of JB, taken quite a while before her death, of her standing in a doorway in bare feet, wearing a red and white spotty dress? Apologies for not posting a link to this photo- my computer skills are embarrassingly limited, and I wonder if anyone else knows how to do it? :blushing:

It may be completely irrelevant, but on that photo, there are little round marks visible on JB's lower legs, that look very similar (even the same?) as the marks on her body in the autopsy... I just suddenly wondered if there could be any connection? Could whatever that was done to JB to cause those marks being discussed, have been done to her quite a while before her death, too? I've no idea, but they do look a bit like possible burn marks? Sorry if this is wrong!

 

[Nom de plume]

Just wondering if anyone's familiar with a picture of JB, taken quite a while before her death, of her standing in a doorway in bare feet, wearing a red and white spotty dress? Apologies for not posting a link to this photo- my computer skills are embarrassingly limited, and I wonder if anyone else knows how to do it? :blushing:

It may be completely irrelevant, but on that photo, there are little round marks visible on JB's lower legs, that look very similar (even the same?) as the marks on her body in the autopsy... I just suddenly wondered if there could be any connection? Could whatever that was done to JB to cause those marks being discussed, have been done to her quite a while before her death, too? I've no idea, but they do look a bit like possible burn marks? Sorry if this is wrong!

Yes, I do think it's very possible. The photo you mentioned is the same one I was referring to earlier. I can't seem to locate it at the moment, or I would post it for you.

 

[Mama2JML]

Just wondering if anyone's familiar with a picture of JB, taken quite a while before her death, of her standing in a doorway in bare feet, wearing a red and white spotty dress? Apologies for not posting a link to this photo- my computer skills are embarrassingly limited, and I wonder if anyone else knows how to do it? :blushing:

It may be completely irrelevant, but on that photo, there are little round marks visible on JB's lower legs, that look very similar (even the same?) as the marks on her body in the autopsy... I just suddenly wondered if there could be any connection? Could whatever that was done to JB to cause those marks being discussed, have been done to her quite a while before her death, too? I've no idea, but they do look a bit like possible burn marks? Sorry if this is wrong!

I think this is the photo to which you're referring: