Was BR involved? #2

[Foreign Faction]

It was asked on another thread what facts exist to support BDI. This is just a summary of evidence, both forensic and behavioral, primarily considered by Kolar about BR’s involvement. It of course doesn’t prove anything. Moreover, I can personally see a domestic event occurring for which we’ve no details. (IMO there’s too much crazy at the dysfunction plantation otherwise known as the ‘hell-hole’ to omit any of them from involvement in JB’s death.)

IIRC, Kolar’s circumstantial evidence is BR’s tDNA on her nightgown (the nightgown did not come from the laundry), fingerprints on a bowl of pineapple demonstrating a nexus of contact between BR and JB who consumed a morsel or two of pineapple, a pleading young voice heard at the conclusion of the 911 call (“What do I do?” “What did you find?” ) and BR’s pajamas with fecal material and a fecal smeared box of chocolates in JB’s bedroom.

Additionally, there was confirmation by the housekeeper and a household guest once of having caught BR in inappropriate activity with JB. From what I’ve read innocent ‘playing doctor’ activities cease after the age of six. If it continues, it’s out of the norm. There were books which were given to Patsy by her parents addressing children’s behavioral issues, including premature sexual activity.

Also, remember ‘DNA-X’ spoken of in the depo of Chief Beckner, found at the crime scene but not on JB’s body or clothing. Why would Beckner take the 5th rather than reveal anything further about this ‘DNA-X?’ I only see two answers: 1) It belonged to one of the adult Rs and he can’t reveal tightly-held criminal evidence to LW who was representing the Rs and their book publisher’s insurance company in the civil case with CW or 2) It belonged to an underage male.

One other thought I’ve had centers around discussions of BR’s behavior from our sister forum FFJ. This is not published in any of the detective books, AFAIK, and is unknown to the public for the most part. It involves excerpted commentary regarding BR’s temper. It was known by some acquainted with the family in Georgia that PR and JR had BR in a program to address anger/tantrum issues. Further, there was information from an unnamed authority in Atlanta that the reason for the move to Charlevoix concerned something which happened with BR. I’d been curious why they moved before the end of BR’s junior year. It would make sense something precipitated the sudden move.

JMHO, the behavioral incidences are important to know, for no other reason than the majority of children with SBP do not fatally harm a sibling. (Though who knows if the Diane Hallis story could be true - PR struck JB accidentally, and it was JR/BR she was aiming to strike?) As to Kolar’s thoughts on this, I recall it’s one of the reasons Kolar really wished to see another GJ impaneled, to subpoena BR’s medical records and to ask BR additional questions. Kolar says in his book, if it could be proven, not just theorized, that BR was solely responsible the case could be brought to conclusion. The records might reveal a deeply disturbed child who’d likely gone off the rails that night.

All this you write here just confirms my solid, professional belief that BR hit JBR, and PR/JR staged the rest. Thank you.

 

[Dibba]

I just reread Kolar's book and its pretty compelling. This theory is the only theory IMHO that fits the evidence. I also know a FBI agent who believes BR did it and interviewed him. BR now married with a daughter. I still can't reconcile this with Ramsey's behavior. Accusing friends, etc. Would they have let another person get convicted knowing he/she was innocent? Why did they write those books? I read both of them and they were very moving. If it were me I'd keep my mouth shut and move on.

 

[Tadpole12]

I just reread Kolar's book and its pretty compelling. This theory is the only theory IMHO that fits the evidence. I also know a FBI agent who believes BR did it and interviewed him. BR now married with a daughter. I still can't reconcile this with Ramsey's behavior. Accusing friends, etc. Would they have let another person get convicted knowing he/she was innocent? Why did they write those books? I read both of them and they were very moving. If it were me I'd keep my mouth shut and move on.

Heyya Dibba,

How do you know this personal information regarding BR?

 

[UKGuy]

I just reread Kolar's book and its pretty compelling. This theory is the only theory IMHO that fits the evidence. I also know a FBI agent who believes BR did it and interviewed him. BR now married with a daughter. I still can't reconcile this with Ramsey's behavior. Accusing friends, etc. Would they have let another person get convicted knowing he/she was innocent? Why did they write those books? I read both of them and they were very moving. If it were me I'd keep my mouth shut and move on.

Dibba,
There are many other theories that match the evidence. e.g. PDI, JDI, etc. Kolar is making no claim to present new forensic evidence, his theory is one of inference not deduction, and he cannot be telling the whole truth otherwise he would not be able to publish his book, some JonBenet forensic evidence is sealed, not for public consumption.

Cosider

Holly Smith, head of Boulder County Sexual Abuse team, stated had found fecal staining in all of JBR's panties on the 3rd day of the investigation; in 2006 she stated: "There is this dynamic of children that have been sexually abused sometimes soiling themselves or urinating in their beds to keep someone who is hurting them at bay," explains Smith....While Smith points out there could be innocent explanations, this was the kind of information that raised questions."

She had her entire chapter related to the JonBenet investigation redacted completely from her autobiography!

You reckon Kolar is telling us everything? Have you seen BR's marriage certificate or the Birth Certificate of his child, easily checked online?

.

 

[BBB167893]

I just reread Kolar's book and its pretty compelling. This theory is the only theory IMHO that fits the evidence. I also know a FBI agent who believes BR did it and interviewed him. BR now married with a daughter. I still can't reconcile this with Ramsey's behavior. Accusing friends, etc. Would they have let another person get convicted knowing he/she was innocent?

I've often wondered that myself. Blamed, yes. Convicted? I doubt it, frankly.

Why did they write those books?

Good publicity. Potentially influence future juries.

I read both of them and they were very moving. If it were me I'd keep my mouth shut and move on.

But you're not them, Dibba.

 

[Foreign Faction]

I've often wondered that myself. Blamed, yes. Convicted? I doubt it, frankly.



Good publicity. Potentially influence future juries.



But you're not them, Dibba.

Interesting thought as to whatever would have happened had someone else been indicted with potential conviction. Would the Ramseys have finally told us the truth?
I guess it's a moot point since they knew all along, I think, that there'd never be enough evidence to convict anyone, not even Burke, had he been old enough to have been prosecuted.

 

[apabld]

Hey everyone, I'm new here. This case has both intrigued and frightened me over the past few years, but I've only recently discovered this site!

I'd just like to ask: what do we know about Burke's relationship with JB?

 

[BBB167893]

Interesting thought as to whatever would have happened had someone else been indicted with potential conviction. Would the Ramseys have finally told us the truth?
I guess it's a moot point since they knew all along, I think, that there'd never be enough evidence to convict anyone, not even Burke, had he been old enough to have been prosecuted.

I'd say they were glad they never have to find out. Now that you mention it, I'm reminded of something John Ramsey said. When asked who in his circle of friends might be capable of doing this, he's always said he doesn't know anyone that evil. On it's face, that sounds like he's standing by them. But I've sometimes wondered if it wasn't actually a complaint, as in "Damn, if only we'd had an obvious scumb*g in this boring, whitebread mountain town who would have made a good scapegoat." Basically, someone who the Rs could pin this on without bothering their consciences. "Well, even if he didn't do THIS crime, he's done other ones."

 

[Foreign Faction]

Heyya Dibba,

How do you know this personal information regarding BR?

LOL, did we ever get an answer to your question Tadpole?

 

[otg]

A lot of new posters lately, and I welcome all. I don't post a lot any more, but I've seen a lot of posts I wanted to respond to and just haven't found the time. It seems many people who are "leaning" BDI are having trouble imagining that he could bring himself to intentionally strangle his sister. At the same time, it's just as difficult to imagine that a parent could strangle her for whatever the reason they can imagine or might come up with. Was it to put her out of her misery because she was dying anyway? Was it to end her life and keep her quiet about something going on? Did someone strangle her because it wasn't known that she was still alive? I too have a problem with each of those ideas. I don't believe JonBenet was intentionally killed. I believe her death was the result of dangerous situation that only required one rash and reckless action that set off the circumstances that led to her death. I believe that when her parents found what had happened, she was already dead and they decided to cover up what happened to keep the actual events from becoming public knowledge.

Older posters probably remember my theory, so I won't post it all again. But for those new to the forum who would like answers to some of the things that just don't make any logical sense about some of the Ramsey family actions, you can read my post from a few years ago and see if it helps explain anything:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?226503-Explain-BDI-to-me&p=9981961#post9981961

 

[Foreign Faction]

Very interesting theory @OTG, thank you. I would suggest that anyone here, especially newbies, check out your link to your theory. I like what you say, very well reasoned, and logical. I agree that PR/JR knew nothing about the head injury, and obviously not about the pineapple.

Personally, I never did hear BR's voice on the 911, have you?

 

[otg]

Very interesting theory @OTG, thank you. I would suggest that anyone here, especially newbies, check out your link to your theory. I like what you say, very well reasoned, and logical. I agree that PR/JR knew nothing about the head injury, and obviously not about the pineapple.

Personally, I never did hear BR's voice on the 911, have you?

I have no doubt about hearing Burke's voice. Unfortunately, most people are listening for the entire reported conversation. But it's not there in the recording that has been released publicly. For whatever the reason, an attempt was made to erase that portion at the end of the recording before releasing it publicly. The result is "white noise" recorded over the section where the conversation takes place. But whoever did the erasure was inaccurate and left the very beginning of it with the first three words spoken by Burke ("What did you... ?"). The other thread has a lot of information on it about how to hear the words, but I know that on it you said you couldn't hear it. Did you listen to the mp3's I referenced at MediaFire? If you listen to the one that has Burke's voice looped, you'll know what to listen for on the full-length recording. If anyone does this, I don't understand how they can't hear it. I have no doubt whatsoever about it being there.

Who Has Heard Burke's Voice on The 911 Tape?

 

[AndHence]

OTG, I've read your original BDI post and it is certainly a well thought out theory of the case. However, don't most experts feel that JonBenet was alive but unconscious for about another 90 minutes after incurring the head injury? In your theory, the head injury and the subsequent asphyxiation it triggered (dangling from the rope tied to the end of a door) occur within a few minutes of each other. Do I have this right? This is the only part of your theory which seems at odds with the medical opinions regarding the case.

 

[tweezybird]

I have listened to the call over and over and still don't hear Burke, can someone tell me exactly where it is?

 

[Tadpole12]

I have listened to the call over and over and still don't hear Burke, can someone tell me exactly where it is?

maybe this?
[video=youtube;GgpRPn2xCPg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgpRPn2xCPg[/video]

 

[otg]

OTG, I've read your original BDI post and it is certainly a well thought out theory of the case. However, don't most experts feel that JonBenet was alive but unconscious for about another 90 minutes after incurring the head injury? In your theory, the head injury and the subsequent asphyxiation it triggered (dangling from the rope tied to the end of a door) occur within a few minutes of each other. Do I have this right? This is the only part of your theory which seems at odds with the medical opinions regarding the case.

It would be an understandable mischaracterization to say that “most experts feel that JonBenet was alive but unconscious for about another 90 minutes after incurring the head injury.” Even former Chief of Police Mark Beckner echoed this timeframe in his Reddit discussion. But in fact, until Kolar’s book was published, many of the “experts” disagreed with one another over which of the two insults was even inflicted first.

Dr. Wecht famously postulated that the head blow might well have been inflicted postmortem (or at least perimortem) due to what he claimed was the small amount of bleeding in the cranium. However in his justification for that “small amount” of bleeding, he only mentions the subdural hemorrhage which Dr. Meyer estimated at “approximately 7-8 cc” (1-1/2 teaspoons). It’s easy to only consider that blood because that is the only amount that Meyer quantifies -- but he does describe the other areas of bleeding. Here’s more in-depth explanations about that if you care to read:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...G!-AUTOPSY-PHOTOS!***&p=10953354#post10953354

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?7469-John-Ramsey-s-Role&p=9570391#post9570391

So until Kolar said in his book that this estimated time was between 45 to 120 minutes and attributed it to Dr. Lucy Rorke (-Adams), the popular theories had it debatable as to which one even occurred first. Look at exactly what Kolar wrote in his book:

Dr. Rorke estimated that it would have taken an hour or so for the cerebral edema to develop, but that this swelling had not yet caused JonBenet's death. "Necrosis," neurological changes to the brain cells, indicated a period of survival after the blow that could have ranged from between forty-five (45) minutes and two (2) hours.
​

But when questioned about it on Tricia’s live webcast, here is what Kolar said:

From the reports that I reviewed, they were looking at somewhere between a 45 minute to perhaps an hour-and-a-half, upwards of possibly 2 hours. And that was based on what their thinking was the time of ingestion of the pineapple coupled with the traveling through her digestive tract as well as the amount of blood and swelling of the brain after the blow to the head.

Those are the time frames that I put in my book that were provided by some of the medical experts that were interviewed and consulted with by the BPD.
​

So this is why I even wonder exactly where the 45 to 120 minute timeframe came from. Was that Dr. Rorke's opinion based solely on the condition of JonBenet's brain, was that an interpretation by multiple investigators based on more than one source and passed on to Kolar, was that Kolar's interpretation based on what he read in BPD reports, or was the extended timeframe not at all about JonBenet's individual circumstances but instead about TBIs in general? I don’t know the answer; but I have a lot of doubts about this timeframe.


Additionally, I question whether or not Dr. Rorke (if hers is the only opinion of that extended timeframe) took all factors into consideration. I wrote about that in this post:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...G!-AUTOPSY-PHOTOS!***&p=10931908#post10931908


One other thing in questioning Dr. Rorke that I only touched on in previous posts but will mention if you care to look into it yourself: The necrosis to which Kolar writes that Dr. Rorke referred... Where is that mentioned in the autopsy? (Necrosis can be caused by other factors besides TBI.) Also, if the brain edema was so great, why did Meyer only describe it as “mild?” Why didn’t Meyer make note of the “coning” of the cerebellum? How did Rorke see this coning with what she was given? Was she provided preserved tissue blocks and slides, or just photographs?

Since Kolar’s book expressed this extended timeframe, many have accepted it as gospel and simply assume that it is a known fact. It is not. In fact, because of all the unanswered questions about it and Kolar’s contradictory (to his book) response when questioned about it, I believe it to be very doubtful.


[BTW, forgive me for referring to my previous posts. I’m just trying to save time and space on the thread. I know not everyone wants to read all this over and over again. As well, not everyone wants to get into as much detail about the medical aspects of this.]

 

[UKGuy]

From the reports that I reviewed, they were looking at somewhere between a 45 minute to perhaps an hour-and-a-half, upwards of possibly 2 hours. And that was based on what their thinking was the time of ingestion of the pineapple coupled with the traveling through her digestive tract as well as the amount of blood and swelling of the brain after the blow to the head.

Those are the time frames that I put in my book that were provided by some of the medical experts that were interviewed and consulted with by the BPD.

otg,

It appears that Kolar is extrapolating from the minimum time period for the pineapple to travel to its destination in JonBenet's digestive tract.

Presumably if you extrapolate backwards you get a contradiction, i.e. JonBenet is still at the White's.

So Kolar feels comfortable with both the notion of time required for the brain swelling and the period of pineapple digestion.

Personally I'm not certain what this tells us, or even if it was fact why its relevant to Kolar's theory?

The mechanism for JonBenet's death appears the same, regardless if it took a minute or 45 minutes.

.

 

[otg]

otg,

It appears that Kolar is extrapolating from the minimum time period for the pineapple to travel to its destination in JonBenet's digestive tract.

Presumably if you extrapolate backwards you get a contradiction, i.e. JonBenet is still at the White's.

So Kolar feels comfortable with both the notion of time required for the brain swelling and the period of pineapple digestion.

Personally I'm not certain what this tells us, or even if it was fact why its relevant to Kolar's theory?

The mechanism for JonBenet's death appears the same, regardless if it took a minute or 45 minutes.

.

Exactly, my long-time friend, except that so many seem to accept this 45 to 120 minute time frame that has been quoted so often. I don't. It's up to the individual to accept or question it.

 

[AndHence]

A smaller time frame between the two injuries would make BDI a lot more plausible. It also explains away the problem of having to decide if the garroting was part of the staging and, if so, was the person did the staging different from the person who committed the head blow, etc. In a BDI scenario, it's highly likely that the parents didn't know about the head injury; they may have just thought JonBenet's neck was broken. We still need some medical consensus regarding the time elapsed between injuries to help shore BDI theory up. OTG's theory is the first I have seen that places the two injuries in a much closer time frame.

Beyond the questions I have posed in previous posts, it's still hard for me to believe the parents would cover for Burke only to let him immediately out of their sight where they'd have little control over the flow of information. Burke was interviewed twice within the first ten days of the murder -- something people often forget.

 

[UKGuy]

A smaller time frame between the two injuries would make BDI a lot more plausible. It also explains away the problem of having to decide if the garroting was part of the staging and, if so, was the person did the staging different from the person who committed the head blow, etc. In a BDI scenario, it's highly likely that the parents didn't know about the head injury; they may have just thought JonBenet's neck was broken. We still need some medical consensus regarding the time elapsed between injuries to help shore BDI theory up. OTG's theory is the first I have seen that places the two injuries in a much closer time frame.

Beyond the questions I have posed in previous posts, it's still hard for me to believe the parents would cover for Burke only to let him immediately out of their sight where they'd have little control over the flow of information. Burke was interviewed twice within the first ten days of the murder -- something people often forget.

AndHence,
What is so important about the time frame, apart from it being a necessary part of some RDI theory, how does it affect the outcome?

was the person did the staging different from the person who committed the head blow, etc.

The person who whacked JonBenet on the head can be the same person that asphyxiated her, then along comes Patsy to fabricate a garrote to mask the prior asphyxiation. JR might simply have wiped JonBenet down and transferred his fibers in the process, i.e. the parents role was as stagers since they saw themselves as removing JonBenet and any associated forensic evidence from the primary crime-scene and faking new forensic evidence to confuse any investigators, e.g. use of the missing piece of the paintbrush to assault JonBenet?

it's highly likely that the parents didn't know about the head injury; they may have just thought JonBenet's neck was broken.

Why did the parents not simply phone for medical assistance immediately?

Beyond the questions I have posed in previous posts, it's still hard for me to believe the parents would cover for Burke only to let him immediately out of their sight where they'd have little control over the flow of information.

Not if everything has gone to plan, and JR convinces Fleet White to relocate BR, he is better off at Fleet's house than where there are, theoretically, no investigators to question BR, JR was likely playing percentages?

If there was a time gap then regardless of who asphyxiated JonBenet, particularly if it was the same person who whacked her head, then it was premeditated and deliberate.

The time gap might be accounted for by the killer assuming JonBenet was dead, so this person indulged in some kind of ritualistic postmortem behavior.

.