Was BR involved? #2

[Sunshine4Me]

I was in 8th grade when this happened and I remember being creeped out by the few pictures and details that emerged about Burke. Our Civics class did current events every week and Burke made the discussion. Our teacher told us he was a disturbed child, and this was soon after it had happened. How right he was. But I don't mean to sound harsh, just reflecting. It really must be terrible to have your whole life under a microscope, I do feel somewhat bad for him since he was just a child.

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[cattlekate]

Just watched the clip and rewatched the police interview. Oh golly I sure see Aspergers. Software engineer, works alone, early childhood excelled in math and spelling, in private school for smart kids, not into physical contact sports, and maybe even some toilet issues.

I feel blessed to have known three Aspergers males - two adults and one child. All highly intelligent in computers, all unable to tell a lie, and all unable to hurt anything other than themselves. They'd get frustrated, but could not physically lash out at another human. Granted, those are the people I knew, which may have no bearing on Burke.

But this convinces me even more PDI. Just one more stressor to cause her to break and enter her fantasy world.

 

[DatelineFan]

FWIW, my brother is what I call an 'inappropriate smiler.' He smirks a lot - A LOT - especially when he is emotional (sad, scared, nervous, etc.). When he would get yelled at as a kid, he would always laugh, which always got him into more trouble. It was totally out of his control, and he still does it as a grown man. It's like a nervous tick.

Not refuting any points being brought up here about BR...just throwing in my two cents. I haven't seen the clips being referenced.

I can back this up. I'm an inappropriate smiler! For some reason, I involuntarily smile, smirk or giggle when I'm extremely uncomfortable. I can't help it, and once it got me assaulted.

Personally, I can't rule BR out, but I do think that many people, while not the majority, have this issue. It also makes me very uncomfortable to try to diagnose someone on the internet, based on very little information. Obviously everyone is free to speculate what they want, but I don't think it's fair to say he might be on the spectrum or whatever.

 

[necnaw]

My husband is autistic and I work with autistic young adults, there is no insult in noticing that he appears to show autistic traits. It makes a lot of reports about his behaviour as a child more understandable. It also suggests to me more that he may not have been directly involved in the crime, as autistic people struggle with lying and being deceptive and do not understand social mechanics enough to manipulate others. Of course this is all speculation, he may just be extremely awkward.

 

[DatelineFan]

I can understand how he's kept his mouth shut for so long. My thought is, this family already had some secrets. Often when there are family secrets, the kids are taught from day one that things that happen within the family, STAY within the family. I see it as almost like indoctrination. They teach the kids that "outsiders" can't be trusted, and keep a very close eye on who the kids talk to and how. This is common in families with abuse. I'm sure there are times when the kids' personalities just don't jive with what they've been taught, but often, parents are successful with keeping the kids from talking to people about certain things.

 

[DatelineFan]

My husband is autistic and I work with autistic young adults, there is no insult in noticing that he appears to show autistic traits. It makes a lot of reports about his behaviour as a child more understandable. It also suggests to me more that he may not have been directly involved in the crime, as autistic people struggle with lying and being deceptive and do not understand social mechanics enough to manipulate others. Of course this is all speculation, he may just be extremely awkward.

I don't think it's an insult, I just think it's inappropriate, that's all. Like I said, it's just my perspective.

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[reintarnation]

I can understand how he's kept his mouth shut for so long. My thought is, this family already had some secrets. Often when there are family secrets, the kids are taught from day one that things that happen within the family, STAY within the family. I see it as almost like indoctrination. They teach the kids that "outsiders" can't be trusted, and keep a very close eye on who the kids talk to and how. This is common in families with abuse. I'm sure there are times when the kids' personalities just don't jive with what they've been taught, but often, parents are successful with keeping the kids from talking to people about certain things.

Excellent points, DF!

To add to that, kids are very ego-centric in the sense that they see everything as though it is directly connected to them. Easy example: mom and dad get divorced, kid thinks somehow it is his fault. Abuse happens to a kid, and he doesn't tell because it's embarrassing, thinks he'll get in trouble, or that he caused it somehow and doesn't want the other person to get in trouble on their behalf.

I find it likely JR and PR told BR to stay out of it for his own good so those awful police and media ("lynch mob", per JR) didn't get to him for his own safety.

Agree with everyone else's comments too - it's creepy, it's sad, it's upsetting...it's everything.

 

[TeaTime]

From the front he looks like PR but his profile is all JR. He is a handsome young man.

The eyes dart to the left when he is responding to a question.

You can tell if someone is actually remembering an event by watching the eyes.

If someone is remembering a scene they witnessed the eyes will dart up and to the right. When remembering a sound they heard, the eyes dart to the right middle (ear). When remembering a feeling, down and to the right is sadness and grief.

Up and left means they do not have a memory of seeing what they are discussing. They are making up a scene that fits with what they know.
Left and centered means they have no memory of hearing what they are discussing.
Left and down is guilt, shame.

Try it yourself.

 

[Madeleine74]

I wish Dr Phil would ask 'did you HURT your sister that night' because JMOO I don't think he killed or murdered her. I have always thought he hit her but she may of lived if parents called 911 for help instead of this big staging. I blame PR & JR. Covering everything up. Siblings do get into some big fights. My husbands sister threw a high heel at him and they covered up the injury by him going to a friends house, got stiches by saying he was hit by a baseball..............things like that happen............

There's a clip I saw where Dr Phil does ask BR about ever hitting his sister and he also asks about any sexual molestation. Obviously BR is going to answer "no;" he's not going to fess up to anything *IF* he did any of that.

My brother (adopted as an infant, deceased since 2003) was 11 months older than me and we fought at times and he exhibited some rage toward me, one time kicking me hard in the mouth and my bottom teeth went partway through, no stitches needed, but lots of bleeding and of course lots of crying from me at around 8 yrs old. I was the favored child and he had to know it. He easily could have hit me over the head with a golf club in a moment of provoked anger. Fortunately that never happened but it absolutely could have. It's not all that unusual, especially if a child has some mental or emotional problems.

It's an awful thing, it really is, if BR did this it had to devastate his parents. Their staging and coverup was indeed not only misguided, but horribly cruel. JBR's injury was one that was going to be fatal (based on the Kolar book and one other I read) no matter what. She may have lived a few more hours, maybe a day, with critical care assistance, but she was morbidly wounded from that blow to her head. Sadly, it was over for JBR with that injury.

 

[FrankieB]

Hmmm...mixed feelings about this.

On one hand I understand a nervous, awkward smile.

But having watched the clip Tad posted, he does smile through the entire thing. All of it. Makes one wonder if he he's like this all the time. I dunno, he seems to be under medication or something.

I still don't believe he did it but he's definitely going through the motions and it kind of gives the impression he was over it a long time ago.

 

[UKGuy]

From the front he looks like PR but his profile is all JR. He is a handsome young man.

The eyes dart to the left when he is responding to a question.

You can tell if someone is actually remembering an event by watching the eyes.

If someone is remembering a scene they witnessed the eyes will dart up and to the right. When remembering a sound they heard, the eyes dart to the right middle (ear). When remembering a feeling, down and to the right is sadness and grief.

Up and left means they do not have a memory of seeing what they are discussing. They are making up a scene that fits with what they know.
Left and centered means they have no memory of hearing what they are discussing.
Left and down is guilt, shame.

Try it yourself.

TeaTime,
Interesting, is there any rationale for Up and Left, or is it folk psychology?

.

 

[cattlekate]

My husband is autistic and I work with autistic young adults, there is no insult in noticing that he appears to show autistic traits. It makes a lot of reports about his behaviour as a child more understandable. It also suggests to me more that he may not have been directly involved in the crime, as autistic people struggle with lying and being deceptive and do not understand social mechanics enough to manipulate others. Of course this is all speculation, he may just be extremely awkward.

Thank you. I hope you post your observations after watching the whole Dr Phil interview. The fact that my Aspergers coworkers could not tell a lie was so intriguing. They couldn't even go on the defensive and make up an excuse to justify a "mistake." They would just apologize, ask for a correction, and move on. No embarrassment. No ego involved.

They also weren't "nervous" people, but appeared like that due to their squirming to try to avoid eye contact.

I'm going to re-read Patsy's Christmas letters, now that I suspect Burke might have shown some social awkwardness. Boy, for a Mom who was such a social extrovert, it must have been puzzling and perhaps disappointing.

 

[UKGuy]

My husband is autistic and I work with autistic young adults, there is no insult in noticing that he appears to show autistic traits. It makes a lot of reports about his behaviour as a child more understandable. It also suggests to me more that he may not have been directly involved in the crime, as autistic people struggle with lying and being deceptive and do not understand social mechanics enough to manipulate others. Of course this is all speculation, he may just be extremely awkward.

necnaw,
You could be 100% correct, I hope you are. How would you explain away his behavior on the morning, i.e. faking being asleep and since he is involved, if only as a corroborative witness, in keeping up the the appearances to go with the staged crime-scene?

.

 

[BOESP]

Just watched the clip and rewatched the police interview. Oh golly I sure see Aspergers. Software engineer, works alone, early childhood excelled in math and spelling, in private school for smart kids, not into physical contact sports, and maybe even some toilet issues.

I feel blessed to have known three Aspergers males - two adults and one child. All highly intelligent in computers, all unable to tell a lie, and all unable to hurt anything other than themselves. They'd get frustrated, but could not physically lash out at another human. Granted, those are the people I knew, which may have no bearing on Burke.

But this convinces me even more PDI. Just one more stressor to cause her to break and enter her fantasy world.

cattlekate, I'm in total agreement with your opinion. Thanks for posting.

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

I thought it was looking to the right that was supposed to indicate deception, not the left. For what it's worth, here's an article saying looking to the left/right doesn't matter:
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/scien...oesnt-indicate-if-youre-lying-1922058/?no-ist

His constant smiling is odd. You can tell by his fidgeting hands that he's uncomfortable so I wouldn't be surprised if it's some kind of nervous tic but jeez, it just comes off kind of excessive. John's the same way, though, always smiling in his interviews. It's disconcerting to see Burke talking about his mom barging into his room crying "Where's my baby, where's my baby?" with apparent amusement anyway. I agree with whoever said Burke seems like he's been 'over it' for a while and is going through the motions. The last line in the clip where he says, "As to why I'm doing it now? It's the 20th anniversary and apparently still a lot of attention around it." Maybe it's the editing and the rest of the sentence will sound better but that sounds pretty detached to me. Especially the way he says "apparently" kind of flippantly, like he doesn't get what the big fuss is about. Nothing about wanting justice for his little sister or finding the killer or honoring Jonbenet's memory, just "apparently" people want to hear about it. Again, maybe the rest of the quote is better but it bothered me. I wonder why they chose to edit it so the clip would end that way.

 

[necnaw]

necnaw,
You could be 100% correct, I hope you are. How would you explain away his behavior on the morning, i.e. faking being asleep and since he is involved, if only as a corroborative witness, in keeping up the the appearances to go with the staged crime-scene?

.

A lot of his avoidant and odd behaviour would make a lot of sense to me if he was definitely on the spectrum. Autistic people rely a lot of home comfort and routine, if there is any stress in the home then him confining himself to his room would be very typical behaviour for a child on the spectrum. The same with him not asking questions or appearing concerned. The faking being asleep (and other acts of deliberate deception) is harder to explain, but it is called a spectrum because symptoms can be severe or subtle and each child experiences it differently, some appearing very high functioning and others noticeably 'different'.

Having said it is unusual for a child on the spectrum to be deceptive, on the other hand it would be easier for a parent to deceive and confuse an autistic child. This is due to them taking everything quite literally and not understanding deception or that people have other motives. If Patsy and John had been consistent enough, convincing Burke of an alternate version of what happened that night is a possible explanation for his keeping up appearances.

I believe maybe Burke was in a very unusual family environment, and exposed to unusual behaviour at home which influenced a lot of his behaviour.

All just my speculations of course, I don't mean to diagnose him to anybody as I have only seen and read snippets of him.

 

[johnjay]

I think the Dr Phil interview is going to creep a lot of people out. Which is unfortunate. He was only 9!

I thinks some of us have higher expectations of nine year olds than others do. I'm creeped out by the clip of the Dr. Phil interview of him as a man that was linked to above.

 

[johnjay]

I thought it was looking to the right that was supposed to indicate deception, not the left. For what it's worth, here's an article saying looking to the left/right doesn't matter:
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/scien...oesnt-indicate-if-youre-lying-1922058/?no-ist

His constant smiling is odd. You can tell by his fidgeting hands that he's uncomfortable so I wouldn't be surprised if it's some kind of nervous tic but jeez, it just comes off kind of excessive. John's the same way, though, always smiling in his interviews. It's disconcerting to see Burke talking about his mom barging into his room crying "Where's my baby, where's my baby?" with apparent amusement anyway. I agree with whoever said Burke seems like he's been 'over it' for a while and is going through the motions. The last line in the clip where he says, "As to why I'm doing it now? It's the 20th anniversary and apparently still a lot of attention around it." Maybe it's the editing and the rest of the sentence will sound better but that sounds pretty detached to me. Especially the way he says "apparently" kind of flippantly, like he doesn't get what the big fuss is about. Nothing about wanting justice for his little sister or finding the killer or honoring Jonbenet's memory, just "apparently" people want to hear about it. Again, maybe the rest of the quote is better but it bothered me. I wonder why they chose to edit it so the clip would end that way.

Well it sure does make me want to watch the show - of course, like most here, I was already on the hook. Apparently we're going to get to see a bit of what Burke is really like.

 

[Lamima]

Those on the spectrum aren't necessarily more prone to aggression but I think they may not have the proper tools necessary (like communication) to deal with frustrations and need a lot of care to help them develop those tools (like therapy, parental involvement, parents need a sort of training/learning/understanding on hope to cope/respond...etc). I found this interesting article about why bad behavior might occur: http://www.iser.com/resources/aspergers-aggressive.html Could one of these be something that might have led BR to be aggressive towards JBR...and if the parents were asleep...
She could have ate his pineapple out of his bowl (saw that theory in another thread) or played with his train or accidentally stepped on his hand or something.

 

[TeaTime]

TeaTime,
Interesting, is there any rationale for Up and Left, or is it folk psychology?

.

UK, I don't know what you mean by this. However, when the eyes move up to the left hand corners of they eyes it is because the person is talking about something they have not seen. There is no memory for them to search.

When the eyes move up, it is in reference to a scene or an image. Middle is hearing. Down is emotion.

Eyes to the right means it is an actual memory of the event being searched for in the brain. Eyes to the left means that the memory does not exist and the person is trying to fit the words/responses to what they have said before, or know to be true.

Right emotion is grief, sadness. Left is guilt.

Turn your own eyes down and left for a few seconds, then down and right. You will feel the different emotions.

Right is good. Left is bad.

Learned this during a course taught by psychologists in how to pick truthful jurors.