Was Burke Involved ? # 3

[Chewy]

The problem with your scenario is that you aren't taking time in to account. What time do the parents actually discover that Jonbenet is dead? We know the Ramseys left the Whites at 8:30, so why would she be slipping in the shower at 1:00 am? They had to be out of the house by 6:15 am, those kids should have been in bed as soon as they got home.

I have had many incidents where my kids stayed up until midnight or even later. I'm not sure what your point is here?

 

[Chewy]

Remember, this is all coming from the Ramseys. John says he and Patsy were interviewed for 8 hours on the 25th and for 2 hours on the 26th. We know that the Rs were just play acting on the 25th and as far as I know, there was no meaningful interview on the 26th (please prove me wrong). So if cops talked to Burke on the 25th, it was likely before JB was found, and it likely consisted of one question; "Did you see or hear anything?".

The police INTERVIEWED him. I'm not talking about right around the event.

http://www.people.com/article/burke-ramsey-1998-interview-from-jonbenet-ramsey-ae-documentary

 

[ThinkHard]

When you watch the videos of his early interviews, especially the one only 2 weeks after the crime when he appears to have a clue game I front of him (I forget ifbtahtsbthe right name, but I recognize the game and it's the one where people ask questions like "do they have glasses" and you have a bunch of faces that you flip down until you have asked enough clues to guess who the right person is, actually it might be called "guess who"?).

Anyway during that interview, while Burke seems intelligent more then anything he seems disconnected. And at times even excited when he mentions that night. It just doesn't seem to match for me the cognition a typical 9 year old child would have around the murder of his younger sister in his own home.

It makes me wonder if he really even had a solid concept of consequences and permanency at that time. It doesn't appear that he feels the weight of the severity of what is going on in his life.

I know people can say everyone reacts differently to trauma. But as someone who works with children, and especially with children with learning, development, and psychological challenges....cognitively he is acting like a much younger child.

If he was involved this makes me wonder how aware he might have even been at that time that he actually caused his sisters death. A family friend had mentioned a time that Burke got angry and hit his sister with a golf club. I believe there was very likely a history of aggression that Burke showed to Jon Benet. And I bet there is even a trail of psychologist that Burke had been seen by to try to address his issues lonh before Jon Benets death. However this was also likely embarrassing for the family because Burke made their perfect family, not so perfect. And the Ramseys strike me as a family where repuation is everything.

If he did hit her in the head or try to choke her, I believe it's possible Burke may not have been cognitively aware of the permenancy of his actions since harming her previously had not let to death.

There are also aspects of Burke that make me strongly suspect he lacked empathy for others and could qualify as a sociopath.

If he harmed her, could his parents have sent him up to hi room while they dealt with the situation? Is it possible they could have tried to weave a new version of events even in Burkes head. Perhaps if Burke did kill his sister, his parents never actually accused him of doing so directly to him but told him it was an accident but the police wouldn't think of it that way....

I guess I just wonder if perhaps 29 year old Burke actually thinks he is telling the truth when he says he didn't kill his sister? Could lack of cognition or empathy at the time, combined with years of denial, coverups, etc....actually lead to an adult who might not clearly remember the hand he played in his sisters death?

 

[hot cawfeee]

I agree. I think that Dr. Phil knew that this interview would make him a ton of $$$$$, so he said what the R's and their lawyer wanted him to in order to secure the interview and ultimately the big ol' paycheck that came with it.

I don't have children of my own, but wouldn't smearing your feces on your little sisters candy be a huge, gigantic red flag??

And this way Dr Phil has the field wide open to continue interviews and get big ratings and $$$$. Since a door was not shut on the case (so to speak) people will feel comfortable being interviewed by the old Doc.

 

[Chewy]

When you watch the videos of his early interviews, especially the one only 2 weeks after the crime when he appears to have a clue game I front of him (I forget ifbtahtsbthe right name, but I recognize the game and it's the one where people ask questions like "do they have glasses" and you have a bunch of faces that you flip down until you have asked enough clues to guess who the right person is, actually it might be called "guess who"?).

Anyway during that interview, while Burke seems intelligent more then anything he seems disconnected. And at times even excited when he mentions that night. It just doesn't seem to match for me the cognition a typical 9 year old child would have around the murder of his younger sister in his own home.

It makes me wonder if he really even had a solid concept of consequences and permanency at that time. It doesn't appear that he feels the weight of the severity of what is going on in his life.

I know people can say everyone reacts differently to trauma. But as someone who works with children, and especially with children with learning, development, and psychological challenges....cognitively he is acting like a much younger child.

If he was involved this makes me wonder how aware he might have even been at that time that he actually caused his sisters death. A family friend had mentioned a time that Burke got angry and hit his sister with a golf club. I believe there was very likely a history of aggression that Burke showed to Jon Benet. And I bet there is even a trail of psychologist that Burke had been seen by to try to address his issues lonh before Jon Benets death. However this was also likely embarrassing for the family because Burke made their perfect family, not so perfect. And the Ramseys strike me as a family where repuation is everything.

If he did hit her in the head or try to choke her, I believe it's possible Burke may not have been cognitively aware of the permenancy of his actions since harming her previously had not let to death.

There are also aspects of Burke that make me strongly suspect he lacked empathy for others and could qualify as a sociopath.

If he harmed her, could his parents have sent him up to hi room while they dealt with the situation? Is it possible they could have tried to weave a new version of events even in Burkes head. Perhaps if Burke did kill his sister, his parents never actually accused him of doing so directly to him but told him it was an accident but the police wouldn't think of it that way....

I guess I just wonder if perhaps 29 year old Burke actually thinks he is telling the truth when he says he didn't kill his sister? Could lack of cognition or empathy at the time, combined with years of denial, coverups, etc....actually lead to an adult who might not clearly remember the hand he played in his sisters death?

This is how I interpret it too as someone who works with Special Education teachers. And this is why it seems even more unlikely that the parents would let him talk to the police at all. It comes across that if he DID hit her or hurt her and was unaware that he had killed her, he would probably be very cavalier about discussing it. For example just casually saying "I hit her funny!" and not realizing the implication. There's just no way for me to reconcile the parents letting him talk to the police if he was in any way involved and they were covering for him. It would be too risky.

 

[asyousay]

This is how I interpret it too as someone who works with Special Education teachers. And this is why it seems even more unlikely that the parents would let him talk to the police at all. It comes across that if he DID hit her or hurt her and was unaware that he had killed her, he would probably be very cavalier about discussing it. For example just casually saying "I hit her funny!" and not realizing the implication. There's just no way for me to reconcile the parents letting him talk to the police if he was in any way involved and they were covering for him. It would be too risky.

I am sure the his parents could scare him enough to not tell the truth and he would of been coached as well. They could only shield him so much from the police.

 

[Tulessa]

I think Burke made the biggest mistake of his life by appearing on Dr. Phil. I was one of those that thought the Ramsey's were innocent. There is NO way you could convince me now of their innocence.

 

[Chewy]

I am sure the his parents could scare him enough to not tell the truth and he would of been coached as well. They could only shield him so much from the police.

But there is no legal reason for him to talk to the police. People make it seem like the parents HAD to let him talk to the police. They could have refused completely. Anyone with a good lawyer would tell them to shut up and to let the police contact their lawyers. We all know this on this site. If the police want to talk to you shut it down and get a lawyer. They already had lawyers. Lawyers were probably telling them to not talk to the police.

Burke was a child whose sister who had just been murdered. They were completely within their legal rights and had total legitimacy in a decision not to let their son talk to the police EVER until he was an adult. They then would have had years to brainwash him into believing a different story.

There's no reason that they would risk it.

 

[hot cawfeee]

I have a couple of things to toss out----IMO Lin Wood should get a co-producer credit for the Dr Phil series with the Rs. I want to see the footage that did not make the show !
Was the luggage searched? Presumably the Rs had packed for their trip prior to going out on Christmas Day. Did LE search the bags ?
Lastly--- I hope I can phrase this question properly--- is it possible for a child with bed-wetting, encopresis be subjected to physical exams that make the child very uncomfortable and the exams feel invasive and abusive?
Its young children that lack the vocabulary and parents are in the room during the exams, so a whimpering child would be told by parent "Stop crying" or "Its ok--the doctor is helping you" ?
Just thinking here.....and keeping convo going. This is really a great group to toss ideas and theories with !!!!

 

[hot cawfeee]

dahlia213--- your post at # 470--- really has me thinking re: my prior post

 

[Vi0l3tt3]

I didn't get to watch the CBS special. Is there a way to view it on demand?

 

[madeleine]

old article, link no longer working but interesting read

Boulder District Attorney Alex Hunter is among those who privately considered the possibility that Burke played a role in the death of his sister. "I wonder if Burke is involved in this," Hunter mused out loud one day, former Boulder police detective Steve Thomas wrote in his book.

Hunter declared publicly in 1999 that Burke wasn't a suspect in his sister's death. But later events suggested that statement wasn't as definitive as it seemed. In 2000 Hunter refused a request by Ramsey attorney Wood to sign a statement declaring under oath that "all questions related to" Burke's "possible involvement" in the death of his sister "were resolved to the satisfaction of investigators." He also refused to declare that Burke "has never been viewed by investigators as a suspect." Nor would he say that Burke "has not been and is not a suspect."

Hunter did, however, agree to language in which he declared that "no evidence has ever been developed ... to justify elevating Burke Ramsey's status from witness to suspect," and there is nothing in the transcripts of the interviews of the Ramseys to suggest any such evidence was developed.

So whatever Hunter's suspicions about Burke, he wasn't able to substantiate them.

 

[Lamima]

I remember reading that LE tricked the folks who BR was staying with after the murder into allowing them to talk to BR. They led the folks into believing the parents gave permission. Then the next interview, which was well after the murder, they insisted he be interviewed by a therapist and not police at all. Maybe they felt if they flat out refused, that it would be a glaring red flag and they felt he did fine with the first quick LE tricked interview so he'd maybe be okay with a psychologist who wouldn't go hard after him like police might.

So I can find 2 interviews, was the 1/97 (right after funeral) interview the secret one that parents weren't aware of...the one where he has the game in his hand? The second with the male interviewer, where BR is lounging in chair, was 6/98 when BR was 11.5 years old. Was there an other time that LE talked to him aside from these 2 taped interviews?

 

[HarmonyE.]

I have a couple of things to toss out----IMO Lin Wood should get a co-producer credit for the Dr Phil series with the Rs. I want to see the footage that did not make the show !
Was the luggage searched? Presumably the Rs had packed for their trip prior to going out on Christmas Day. Did LE search the bags ?
Lastly--- I hope I can phrase this question properly--- is it possible for a child with bed-wetting, encopresis be subjected to physical exams that make the child very uncomfortable and the exams feel invasive and abusive?
Its young children that lack the vocabulary and parents are in the room during the exams, so a whimpering child would be told by parent "Stop crying" or "Its ok--the doctor is helping you" ?
Just thinking here.....and keeping convo going. This is really a great group to toss ideas and theories with !!!!

I would guess that most if not all of the luggage was packed as they were supposed to be on a very early flight (some have speculated they were up too late to make the scheduled time of the flight if Patsy didn't come downstairs until around 5:45, which fits with the RDI theory). John had already packed some things on the plane the day before. I've never heard that the plane was searched and I doubt it was.

With regard to your last question, if you are referring to JonBenet, yes, she may have felt uncomfortable at all of those dr's visits. We have no way of knowing. Burke's medical records were sealed.

 

[Vi0l3tt3]

Why would someone have their child's medical records sealed?

 

[asyousay]

But there is no legal reason for him to talk to the police. People make it seem like the parents HAD to let him talk to the police. They could have refused completely. Anyone with a good lawyer would tell them to shut up and to let the police contact their lawyers. We all know this on this site. If the police want to talk to you shut it down and get a lawyer. They already had lawyers. Lawyers were probably telling them to not talk to the police.

Burke was a child whose sister who had just been murdered. They were completely within their legal rights and had total legitimacy in a decision not to let their son talk to the police EVER until he was an adult. They then would have had years to brainwash him into believing a different story.

There's no reason that they would risk it.

Maybe they figured if they shut down Burke completely everybody would think it was him ?


I have no idea why they let him talk to the police but I believe Burke killed his sister. I don't think he think planned to but I think he was a seriously messed up kid who was eaten up with jealousy and lashed out.

There is simply no way a kidnapper came in that night , used pen and paper from the home and spent ages on the note and then calmly put the pen and pad in its original home , laid the pages out on the stairs. Then totally ignored Burke who was downstairs which he has now admitted to. Then fed Jon Benet before killing her.

Hell this kidnapper may as well of moved in for the night he spent so long in the home , it's ridiculous to suggest it was not a inside job IMO

 

[merribe]

old article, link no longer working but interesting read

Boulder District Attorney Alex Hunter is among those who privately considered the possibility that Burke played a role in the death of his sister. "I wonder if Burke is involved in this," Hunter mused out loud one day, former Boulder police detective Steve Thomas wrote in his book.

Hunter declared publicly in 1999 that Burke wasn't a suspect in his sister's death. But later events suggested that statement wasn't as definitive as it seemed. In 2000 Hunter refused a request by Ramsey attorney Wood to sign a statement declaring under oath that "all questions related to" Burke's "possible involvement" in the death of his sister "were resolved to the satisfaction of investigators." He also refused to declare that Burke "has never been viewed by investigators as a suspect." Nor would he say that Burke "has not been and is not a suspect."

Hunter did, however, agree to language in which he declared that "no evidence has ever been developed ... to justify elevating Burke Ramsey's status from witness to suspect," and there is nothing in the transcripts of the interviews of the Ramseys to suggest any such evidence was developed.

So whatever Hunter's suspicions about Burke, he wasn't able to substantiate them.

Lin Wood keeps stating in his replies on Twitter how in 1999 it was declared Burke was not a suspect. He keeps saying it over and over again, as if things cannot change, and leaving out this later history. Do you know where this article was from? Thanks.

Wood also (not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet) said on Twitter that his case against CBS will be like Hulk Hogan vs. Gawker. (?)

 

[ThinkHard]

I do think PR would have covered up for her son for several reasons. One of course is just by the fact that he is her child. Another reason is because she seems to so greatly value her reputation and her families reputation.....BUT....for me the biggest reason that PR would cover for BR, is because she felt responsible for him being the way he was.

I know with my own grandmother and my moms youngest brother....who is kind of the black sheep, my grandmother always felt she was responsible for him being the way he is....that she had failed somehow with him as a mother. She felt like the reason he was an irresponsible adult always looking for a handout was because she had spoiled him and babied him growing up. Her guilt around believing he could never really take care of himself, and it was all her fault, even lead her to leave him the house, not to own, but just to live in, because otherwise she felt he'd be homeless. Again all this came from her guilt as a mother.

When I think about that, and the Ramsey case I can see if BR was a kid who had cognition issues, or lack,of empathy issues, or anger issues.....and she knew she spent way more time doting on JBR.....and that this even added to jealousy issues and past outburst.....to me anyway it just make sense that IF BR harmed his sister......Patsy would have very much felt responsible for the whole thing and very much felt like her sons actions were her fault.

 

[hot cawfeee]

I didn't get to watch the CBS special. Is there a way to view it on demand?

If your cable provider has the ability, you should have no problem. ID Discovery also has A JBR Mystery program--think that's the name.

 

[ThinkHard]

Why would someone have their child's medical records sealed?

I'd think if you don't want police to see either a history of injury reports, or a history of Psych evals, diagnosis's, or treatment (like meds that would be very indicative of a specific illness, like Mood stabilizers, antipsychotics........stuff like that)