Was Burke Involved? # 4

[johnjay]

I agree with you. When watching his interview where he drew the picture of his family minus Jonbenet he just came across so willing and happy to draw the picture, shouting out 'I've got one!.' It appeared as though with JB gone all the problems he thinks she bought along were gone too.

Wasn't the family dog left out of that picture too?

 

[DakotaMayi]

Wasn't the family dog left out of that picture too?

Not sure. However i would say it was more significant leaving out your sister than it is leaving out the dog

 

[mrseeker]

Lot's of armchair psychology going on. Maybe he left her out for the reason he said. She was gone. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

 

[DakotaMayi]

I was wrong then. Sorry.

 

[johnjay]

Ohhhhhh, don't get me started, johnjay. I can just imagine that as the WS audience is reading this, 75% of them are rolling their eyes worrying I'm going to start again. I'll just say for now that I think the paintbrush was broken and tied on the end of the cord after she was already dead from the strangulation to obscure how she was actually strangled and what the paintbrush had been used for before she died.

Exact dimensions of all the cords/ligatures are in the AR:

Tied loosely around the right wrist, overlying the sleeve of the shirt is a white cord. At the knot there is one tail end which measures 5.5 inches in length with a frayed end. The other tail of the knot measures 15.5 inches in length and ends in a double loop knot. This end of the cord is also frayed.

Wrapped around the neck with a double knot in the midline of the posterior neck is a length of white cord similar to that described as being tied around the right wrist. This ligature cord is cut on the right side of the neck and removed. A single black ink mark is placed on the left side of the cut and a double black ink mark on the right side of the cut. The posterior knot is left intact. Extending from the knot on the posterior aspect of the neck are two tails of the knot, one measuring 4 inches in length and having a frayed end, and the other measuring 17 inches in length with the end tied in multiple loops around a lenght of a round tan-brown wooden stick which measures 4.5 inches in length. This wooden stick is irregularly broken at both ends and there are several colors of paint and apparent glistening varnish on the surface. Printed in gold letters on one end of the wooden stick is the word "Korea". The tail end of another word extends from beneath the loops of the cord tied around the stick and is not able to be interpreted. Blonde hair is entwined in the knot on the posterior aspect of the neck as well as in the cord wrapped around the wooden stick. (Are you reading this, ThinkHard?) It appears to be made of a white synthetic material. Also secured around the neck is a gold chain with a single charm in the form of a cross.
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Thinking about this some more, it seems that the hair entwined in the knot would keep the stick end from being pulled far enough away to tighten the noose part.

 

[BBB167893]

The problem I have with the handle just being pulled is that method creates a lot of pulling force on the neck besides the compression force. And it feels like the most violent of the three very violent techniques. Maybe with a quick yank- like pulling a lawn mower ... I wish CBS would have covered this but it would have been gruesome TV.

I'm not sure that the handle was on it before she was strangled, johnjay. And yes, I'm convinced that it was simply pulled, not twisted.

Could normal parents like John and Patsy do that kind of staging? That's a frightening thought. After playing with a mock-up of the device I can see why the intruder theory is popular. Just holding the mock up was very unsettling.

You just nailed it, johnjay: nobody wants to believe that the Girl Scout den mother down the street could do something like this. It's comforting in a way to think that good is good and bad is bad and only the most derelict among us do these things. I'm sure that's what the Rs were going for. And just as a personal statement, I'd say it's a stretch to call either John or Patsy "normal!"

 

[Djoop]

Sexual aggression in children has ZERO to do with lust. They are not thinking about those sexual acts the way an adult would. And since you think of it by that definition I can understand why you don't follow that theory. But i think if you understood sexual aggressive behavior in children better, and understood it is more about control and not about sexual desires that line if logic would make a lot more sense to you.

You still never answered my question by the way....who ever said anything about Burke staging the murder to cover up sexual abuse?

I've not see anyone even suggest this, not once. And I'm not sure I am following exactmy how you got there either. I don't see a 9 year old boy staging this as hiding sexual abuse as his motive.

His motive, in my opinion, is far more likely to be that he was a very messed up little boy, with extreme anger toward his sister, who he saw as the catalyst for his life getting all icky. After she was born, is when he got less attention, his mom was ill, they moved.....he likely associated her arrival with everything changing, and in his brain thought if she was just gone, everything would get back to normal. And I believe he acted out on his sister as a way to excerpt power and control over her.

I allready stated that I can't reproduce the deductive reasoning that lead me to believe this was being suggested. It may have been a wrong assumption on my part, based of the post you made in which you pointed on the possibility that it was an act of sexual aggression.

I think we understand eachother when it's about the nature of agressive acts by children this age, whether they are sexual or not, they're not sexually driven, driven by lust. Therefor, like you I believe we can discard the idea of erotic asphyxiation (as a motive for Burke to use the garrote). I also believe that the use of the garrote pretty much excludes the whole accident theory and does open the door towards sadism; that he must have intended to inflict extreme agony or even death on her. Not merely ASPD, but one with psychopathic features, a disorder that overlaps with, but is distinguishable from ASPD. Like the Enforcing Sadist you describe. Which is helpful if you're trying to narrow it down. Once you found the behavioral pattern, you can make sense of certain behavior or lack of it. His lack of empathy for example has been pointed out by many. However, this theory also requires a kind of personality disorder that's not likely to stay unnoticed long. It raises other questions worth addressing.

I think the BDI theory is most viable when you consider it was an act of rage. He struck her on the head, and the parents proceeded to cover this 'accident' up, like they covered the one with the golf club - they didn't want to believe their son intended to kill her. It doesn't require him to be a sadist, you have a wide array of possible personality traits that could explain why he hit her and felt no remorse for it afterwards. It would explain why the parents staged the scene (believing the blow to her head had allready killed her) and the 911 call.

 

[johnjay]

I'm not sure that the handle was on it before she was strangled, johnjay. And yes, I'm convinced that it was simply pulled, not twisted.

Do you think Burke did that and John staged what we ended up with?

You just nailed it, johnjay: nobody wants to believe that the Girl Scout den mother down the street could do something like this. It's comforting in a way to think that good is good and bad is bad and only the most derelict among us do these things. I'm sure that's what the Rs were going for. And just as a personal statement, I'd say it's a stretch to call either John or Patsy "normal!"

 

[BBB167893]

I have yet to hear of another case of a child killed by a parent, hidden in the house, and the police called. I am not all knowing, especially sober, so maybe there are cases. There are plenty of examples of parents claiming children were snatched in the night, some were true kidnappings, some were children intentionally or accidentally murdered by a parent, or adult in the home. In all those cases the children have been taken somewhere, some never to be found. This is not evidence but it is statistics and logic.

Agreed. Those cases are as different from this one as night and day. I don't know if there's ever been a case besides this one like you describe, mrseeker, but it seems like ever since JonBenet's death, there have been numerous cases that followed the Ramsey blueprint: missing child, caretakers blame "intruder" and have NO idea what happened. Two days ago, one of these cases was solved, that of Rica Parsons in North Carolina. Her stepparents claimed she's gone to visit relatives and disappeared after that. Her stepfather showed cops where she was buried. Here's the thing: the stepparents were interviewed on Dr Phil too. AND when the property was searched, they found lots of material relating to JonBenet and Susan Smith.

 

[BBB167893]

Do you think Burke did that and John staged what we ended up with?

No, I don't don't. Not yet, anyway. I think the parents did all the staging.

 

[mrseeker]

Agreed. Those cases are as different from this one as night and day. I don't know if there's ever been a case besides this one like you describe, mrseeker, but it seems like ever since JonBenet's death, there have been numerous cases that followed the Ramsey blueprint: missing child, caretakers blame "intruder" and have NO idea what happened. Two days ago, one of these cases was solved, that of Rica Parsons in North Carolina. Her stepparents claimed she's gone to visit relatives and disappeared after that. Her stepfather showed cops where she was buried. Here's the thing: the stepparents were interviewed on Dr Phil too. AND when the property was searched, they found lots of material relating to JonBenet and Susan Smith.

Yep but that body had been removed from the house. If PR had more time, JBR would have been removed IMO

 

[BBB167893]

Yep but that body had been removed from the house. If PR had more time, JBR would have been removed IMO

I can't believe that, mrseeker. "Proper burial" was too important to her. Too important to let her pageant princess become a meal for scavengers.

 

[ThinkHard]

I allready stated that I can't reproduce the deductive reasoning that lead me to believe this was being suggested. It may have been a wrong assumption on my part, based of the post you made in which you pointed on the possibility that it was an act of sexual aggression.

I think we understand eachother when it's about the nature of agressive acts by children this age, whether they are sexual or not, they're not sexually driven, driven by lust. Therefor, like you I believe we can discard the idea of erotic asphyxiation (as a motive for Burke to use the garrote). I also believe that the use of the garrote pretty much excludes the whole accident theory and does open the door towards sadism; that he must have intended to inflict extreme agony or even death on her. Not merely ASPD, but one with psychopathic features, a disorder that overlaps with, but is distinguishable from ASPD. Like the Enforcing Sadist you describe. Which is helpful if you're trying to narrow it down. Once you found the behavioral pattern, you can make sense of certain behavior or lack of it. His lack of empathy for example has been pointed out by many. However, this theory also requires a kind of personality disorder that's not likely to stay unnoticed long. It raises other questions worth addressing.

I think the BDI theory is most viable when you consider it was an act of rage. He struck her on the head, and the parents proceeded to cover this 'accident' up, like they covered the one with the golf club - they didn't want to believe their son intended to kill her. It doesn't require him to be a sadist, you have a wide array of possible personality traits that could explain why he hit her and felt no remorse for it afterwards. It would explain why the parents staged the scene (believing the blow to her head had allready killed her) and the 911 call.

What are you talking about? When did I describe an "enforcing sadist" ? I never said any such thing.

It feels a bit in this post and your last ones, that you are either intentionally twisting my words, or that you are just innocently misunderstanding them. But it feels like you are putting words and thoughts in my mouth I have never had nor written.

Also ASPD aka antisocial personality disorder aka sociopath IS a personality disorder, which includes a lack of empathy, amongst many other things. But I don't think this neccasarily fits Burke. Nor do I think he was a sadist, I NEVER said that, EVER. Nor have I thought that, I'm not sure where you got that idea.

 

[mrseeker]

I can't believe that, mrseeker. "Proper burial" was too important to her. Too important to let her pageant princess become a meal for scavengers.

I don't believe that at all. The note was written to get JR to leave for the bank that morning so she could move the body to some roadside. She staged it as a sexual attack so she must have wanted it found at some point, so I doubt she would bury her. If JR and BR were both involved the body would not be in that house at the time of the 911 call. That is nonsensical. Or they are both really stupid which I do not think they are. I think PR was a little nuts and very high.

 

[johnjay]

No, I don't don't. Not yet, anyway. I think the parents did all the staging.

Just so I'm clear on this. You think the parents were solely responsible for all strangulation?

Do you think JonBenet dead or alive when this occurred?

 

[johnjay]

Is this the kind of know that was used around the neck? (without the half hitch at the end)

[video=youtube;dGXd2EnrJ30]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGXd2EnrJ30[/video]

 

[TexMex]

I don't believe that at all. The note was written to get JR to leave for the bank that morning so she could move the body to some roadside. She staged it as a sexual attack so she must have wanted it found at some point, so I doubt she would bury her. If JR and BR were both involved the body would not be in that house at the time of the 911 call. That is nonsensical. Or they are both really stupid which I do not think they are. I think PR was a little nuts and very high.

John never left for the bank. He called the banker then sent Mr. Fernie to collect the money. IMO that could not have been the plan because both parents would be expected to stay in the home for the kidnappers phone call between 8-10

If her plan was to leave the house with the body she would also never have called two couples and the preacher to come over. Was she just going to leave the police and all those friends to go for a drive?

 

[Djoop]

What are you talking about? When did I describe an "enforcing sadist" ? I never said any such thing.

It feels a bit in this post and your last ones, that you are either intentionally twisting my words, or that you are just innocently misunderstanding them. But it feels like you are putting words and thoughts in my mouth I have never had nor written.

Also ASPD aka antisocial personality disorder aka sociopath IS a personality disorder, which includes a lack of empathy, amongst many other things. But I don't think this neccasarily fits Burke. Nor do I think he was a sadist, I NEVER said that, EVER. Nor have I thought that, I'm not sure where you got that idea.

You clearly misunderstood me. I said you described an enforcing sadist, maybe I should have been more accurate by stating you described characteristics of an enforcing sadist. You didn't say you think he's a sadist. I did, and I tried to explain the difference with a 'mere' ASPD. Why Burke would need to be a sadist/psychopath in certain BDI theories. Now I'm using the most common terms, but I have to translate them and I'm not custom to the lingo americans use when it comes to psychiatry in general, and surely there are differences in subtypes - the american school may allow subtypes we do not acknowledge and vice versa or use different methods to differentiate between them.

 

[watson110]

There is an interesting post in a fb group. Basically a picture like this was posted. It's a string from the neck of an American Doll.

 

[ThinkHard]

There is an interesting post in a fb group. Basically a picture like this was posted. It's a string from the neck of an American Doll.

I've seen this proposed before, but two things.....those strings are cotton, not shiny ....th one on the Ramsey ligature appears to be shiny like nylon line. Two having one of those dolls growing up, I don't think these strings are long enough to be the one used in the Ramsey ligature.