Was Burke Involved? # 4

[ThinkHard]

You clearly misunderstood me. I said you described an enforcing sadist, maybe I should have been more accurate by stating you described characteristics of an enforcing sadist. You didn't say you think he's a sadist. I did, and I tried to explain the difference with a 'mere' ASPD. Why Burke would need to be a sadist/psychopath in certain BDI theories. Now I'm using the most common terms, but I have to translate them and I'm not custom to the lingo americans use when it comes to psychiatry in general, and surely there are differences in subtypes - the american school may allow subtypes we do not acknowledge and vice versa or use different methods to differentiate between them.

How do you believe I described an enforcing sadist? I am confused because I don't feel like I have. So I'm not sure why you are taking things I have said in that direction?

Obviously you're entitled to any theory you choose, I'm just confused how things I have said are related to your theory.

 

[mrseeker]

John never left for the bank. He called the banker then sent Mr. Fernie to collect the money. IMO that could not have been the plan because both parents would be expected to stay in the home for the kidnappers phone call between 8-10

If her plan was to leave the house with the body she would also never have called two couples and the preacher to come over. Was she just going to leave the police and all those friends to go for a drive?

I don't doubt PR was wrong in her assumption about how JR would act when he woke up. My contention is the note was written by PR and it was written to JR trying to convince him to go to the bank in the morning. It never mentioned PR because PR wrote it. It rambles on for 3 pages begging at times almost, trying to get JR to leave the house that morning and not call the police. It even tells him to go to the bank. Why would a kidnapper care where you got the money? I don't think PR was thinking clearly as usual. She was not as smart as she thought she was and I think she was abusing meds. JR just did not react like she hoped. He searched the house and told her to call 911. I think it was after this call but before police arrived, JR took a longer look at that note and realized PR wrote it. Maybe she confessed, maybe she told him BR had killed his sister who knows. Whatever happened, JR decided to go along with the ruse.

 

[Luckymanuh]

I don't doubt PR was wrong in her assumption about how JR would act when he woke up. My contention is the note was written by PR and it was written to JR trying to convince him to go to the bank in the morning. It never mentioned PR because PR wrote it. It rambles on for 3 pages begging at times almost, trying to get JR to leave the house that morning and not call the police. It even tells him to go to the bank. Why would a kidnapper care where you got the money? I don't think PR was thinking clearly as usual. She was not as smart as she thought she was and I think she was abusing meds. JR just did not react like she hoped. He searched the house and told her to call 911. I think it was after this call but before police arrived, JR took a longer look at that note and realized PR wrote it. Maybe she confessed, maybe she told him BR had killed his sister who knows. Whatever happened, JR decided to go along with the ruse.

The more overhead and re-read I am beginning to believe JR was a latent participant. The tension between him and PR and lack of any support or comfort in the interviews speak volumes. IMO

 

[Djoop]

How do you believe I described an enforcing sadist? I am confused because I don't feel like I have. So I'm not sure why you are taking things I have said in that direction?

Obviously you're entitled to any theory you choose, I'm just confused how things I have said are related to your theory.

I'm afraid I just can't explain it any better. And I don't mind trying to explain myself, but at the same time I don't want to derail the thread with these back and forths.

You described characteristics one could identify in an enforcing sadist by saying that you "believe he acted out on his sister as a way to excerpt power and control over her."
Enforcing sadist tend to do that. They go out of their way to enforce the harshest punishment to rule breakers (stole a piece of pineapple?) within their authoritarian domain (older brother vs younger sister), and exercise the worst punishments they can dish out.

 

[TexMex]

I don't doubt PR was wrong in her assumption about how JR would act when he woke up. My contention is the note was written by PR and it was written to JR trying to convince him to go to the bank in the morning. It never mentioned PR because PR wrote it. It rambles on for 3 pages begging at times almost, trying to get JR to leave the house that morning and not call the police. It even tells him to go to the bank. Why would a kidnapper care where you got the money? I don't think PR was thinking clearly as usual. She was not as smart as she thought she was and I think she was abusing meds. JR just did not react like she hoped. He searched the house and told her to call 911. I think it was after this call but before police arrived, JR took a longer look at that note and realized PR wrote it. Maybe she confessed, maybe she told him BR had killed his sister who knows. Whatever happened, JR decided to go along with the ruse.

I think she wrote the note as well. However she penned it with input from John. They were in this together. This wasn't Patsy buying an expensive dress and hiding the receipt from her husband. Their daughter was dead. Their son had killed her. IMO this isn't something she would undertake without knowing with absolute certainty they were in this together, 100 percent to protect their son. JMO that they wrote the note as a team. John saying make it appear to be someone mad at me and my business. Patsy took it from there, adding the dramatic flourishes.
JMO but there is no way she did everything and just hoped he would go along when he "woke up ".
Also no way she was trying to get him to leave for the bank so she could dispose of the body as you suggested IMO. She called 911. The police were there in seven minutes. (IMO they expected the body to be found immediately.) She then calls over two couples and the minister. Was she going to somehow sneak her daughters body upstairs and into her car with a house filled with detectives waiting on kidnappers to call plus the Fernies, the Whites and the preacher?
This was a huge, life changing moment and they had to agree to either be in it together to stage this or call the police and (in their minds) hand over their nine year old son to authorities to put in the juvenile system or locked up in a mental institution for a very long time IMO

 

[mrseeker]

I think she wrote the note as well. However she penned it with input from John. They were in this together. This wasn't Patsy buying an expensive dress and hiding the receipt from her husband. Their daughter was dead. Their son had killed her. IMO this isn't something she would undertake without knowing with absolute certainty they were in this together, 100 percent to protect their son. JMO that they wrote the note as a team. John saying make it appear to be someone mad at me and my business. Patsy took it from there, adding the dramatic flourishes.
JMO but there is no way she did everything and just hoped he would go along when he "woke up ".
Also no way she was trying to get him to leave for the bank so she could dispose of the body as you suggested IMO. She called 911. The police were there in seven minutes. (IMO they expected the body to be found immediately.) She then calls over two couples and the minister. Was she going to somehow sneak her daughters body upstairs and into her car with a house filled with detectives waiting on kidnappers to call plus the Fernies, the Whites and the preacher?
This was a huge, life changing moment and they had to agree to either be in it together to stage this or call the police and (in their minds) hand over their nine year old son to authorities to put in the juvenile system or locked up in a mental institution for a very long time IMO

I don't think John would go along with that stupid note. I think he is a logical, pragmatic businessman. I also do not believe he would have called the police until he moved the body along a road somewhere. PR could not leave that house in the middle of the night undetected. It would have been impossible for her to move the body quietly from the basement to the garage, start the car, then come home without JR hearing something. But if she got him out of the house in the AM she could have. If JR was involved in the staging, then they would have worked together and JR would have removed the body, and PR would stage the house...and when all was set, all agreed upon, then the 911 call would be placed. You will never convince me, a man such as JR would ever say, great job PR that note is wonderful. Nobody will ever suspect us..Only an unsophisticated sophisticate ( my made up term) like PR with a wild imagination about how bad men act, and a handful of prescription pills would have ever staged this crime as it was staged.

beautiful dogs btw

 

[TexMex]

John is the one who took sleep aids IIRC. So she could have done it easier at night if that was her plan. If he woke up she'd explain it when she got back...he was going to find out regardless. No way she was planning to get him to leave and remove the body. She called friends over. You think she would drag the blanket upstairs past them and say I'm going for a drive, brb?! He knew. He helped. They staged it, called 911.
He was a smart businessman. Another reason she relied on him in this emergency. He sure was pragmatic. Brass tacks..there was no getting JonBenet back and there was (in his mind) no way Burke wouldn't be taken away from them. Too risky for him to drive around with a body looking for a dump site. He could have been seen. He wasn't a criminal, he has no expertise in constructing a ransom note. He suggests making it look like people who were angry at him/Access had taken their child. He then let his journalism grad wife write it. They just knew they needed a note so that's what they did. Fact is it was successful in the sense that: their son was not taken from them and neither one of them was arrested.

Lol, thanks...they are great dogs. But they are kept in line by the smallest, youngest dog in our house, Miss Bossy

 

[Heymom]

I don't think John would go along with that stupid note. I think he is a logical, pragmatic businessman. I also do not believe he would have called the police until he moved the body along a road somewhere. PR could not leave that house in the middle of the night undetected. It would have been impossible for her to move the body quietly from the basement to the garage, start the car, then come home without JR hearing something. But if she got him out of the house in the AM she could have. If JR was involved in the staging, then they would have worked together and JR would have removed the body, and PR would stage the house...and when all was set, all agreed upon, then the 911 call would be placed. You will never convince me, a man such as JR would ever say, great job PR that note is wonderful. Nobody will ever suspect us..Only an unsophisticated sophisticate ( my made up term) like PR with a wild imagination about how bad men act, and a handful of prescription pills would have ever staged this crime as it was staged.

beautiful dogs btw

What if JR allowed PR to write the note, and even handed over her note pad and pen to LE once they arrived (he did that), making her into a suspect to take the fall for Burke? Maybe she wasn't aware of how silly her letter was getting, but JR thought "Well let her go, she'll incriminate herself and then I'm totally off the hook." Even though he knew - he had to know and participate in the clean-up. They BOTH handled/fell on JBR's body after JR "found" her, so that in case their fibers were still on her, there would be an excuse for that. I am with TexMex - I'm fairly certain John did know, but things weren't going according to their original plan & that was why he got agitated.

 

[otg]

Thinking about this some more, it seems that the hair entwined in the knot would keep the stick end from being pulled far enough away to tighten the noose part.

Exactly! That's the point. It couldn't function the way it was made to appear. The17" length was longer than her hair once it was entwined into the paintbrush knot.

 

[mrseeker]

What if JR allowed PR to write the note, and even handed over her note pad and pen to LE once they arrived (he did that), making her into a suspect to take the fall for Burke? Maybe she wasn't aware of how silly her letter was getting, but JR thought "Well let her go, she'll incriminate herself and then I'm totally off the hook." Even though he knew - he had to know and participate in the clean-up. They BOTH handled/fell on JBR's body after JR "found" her, so that in case their fibers were still on her, there would be an excuse for that. I am with TexMex - I'm fairly certain John did know, but things weren't going according to their original plan & that was why he got agitated.

That does not make sense to me. JR did not let it go. He has stood with the ruse for 20 years. I do not think the body would have been found in the house or the note written so poorly if both were involved. It's possible two people could have been that stupid. It did eventually work out for them, since the cops were so incompetent. I do not think JR is so passive he would have allowed this stupid note to be presented as real. I do think PR is this stupid, and based on her interviews this intoxicated.

 

[mrseeker]

John is the one who took sleep aids IIRC. So she could have done it easier at night if that was her plan. If he woke up she'd explain it when she got back...he was going to find out regardless. No way she was planning to get him to leave and remove the body. She called friends over. You think she would drag the blanket upstairs past them and say I'm going for a drive, brb?! He knew. He helped. They staged it, called 911.
He was a smart businessman. Another reason she relied on him in this emergency. He sure was pragmatic. Brass tacks..there was no getting JonBenet back and there was (in his mind) no way Burke wouldn't be taken away from them. Too risky for him to drive around with a body looking for a dump site. He could have been seen. He wasn't a criminal, he has no expertise in constructing a ransom note. He suggests making it look like people who were angry at him/Access had taken their child. He then let his journalism grad wife write it. They just knew they needed a note so that's what they did. Fact is it was successful in the sense that: their son was not taken from them and neither one of them was arrested.

Lol, thanks...they are great dogs. But they are kept in line by the smallest, youngest dog in our house, Miss Bossy

View attachment 102357

That is funny because i had two dogs who have passed and the smaller ruled the roost. The small lab mix would take the 100 lb shepherds food and the shepherd would come find me to tattle. LOL.

 

[mrseeker]

John is the one who took sleep aids IIRC. So she could have done it easier at night if that was her plan. If he woke up she'd explain it when she got back...he was going to find out regardless. No way she was planning to get him to leave and remove the body. She called friends over. You think she would drag the blanket upstairs past them and say I'm going for a drive, brb?! He knew. He helped. They staged it, called 911.
He was a smart businessman. Another reason she relied on him in this emergency. He sure was pragmatic. Brass tacks..there was no getting JonBenet back and there was (in his mind) no way Burke wouldn't be taken away from them. Too risky for him to drive around with a body looking for a dump site. He could have been seen. He wasn't a criminal, he has no expertise in constructing a ransom note. He suggests making it look like people who were angry at him/Access had taken their child. He then let his journalism grad wife write it. They just knew they needed a note so that's what they did. Fact is it was successful in the sense that: their son was not taken from them and neither one of them was arrested.

Lol, thanks...they are great dogs. But they are kept in line by the smallest, youngest dog in our house, Miss Bossy

View attachment 102357

I consider my average man expertise to evaluate this and the note is stupid. I just cannot see a man going along. He would have demanded a rewrite. I am not sure many women would go along, but I am certain men would not. The note is too long, too personal, and too stupid.

 

[Heymom]

That does not make sense to me. JR did not let it go. He has stood with the ruse for 20 years. I do not think the body would have been found in the house or the note written so poorly if both were involved. It's possible two people could have been that stupid. It did eventually work out for them, since the cops were so incompetent. I do not think JR is so passive he would have allowed this stupid note to be presented as real. I do think PR is this stupid, and based on her interviews this intoxicated.

What I meant is that JR helped point the finger at Patsy, either spitefully or with her consent. I am not saying they were stupid. They were also smart enough to know that they could not take her body out of the house that night without drawing the attention of neighbors, leaving tracks and having a warm car engine when the detectives arrived later. They knew they were stuck with the body of their daughter in the basement, but they had to come up with a reason why she was dead, and a botched kidnapping was what they landed on. They gave instructions in the letter, that both of them promptly violated, so that it would look as if the kidnappers had to kill JonBenet b/c of their own violation of the instructions. (These things always come off better in the movies.) That was the best they could do in the situation, and it ended up working well enough for them to get out of the house and behind a wall of lawyers, from which they've never departed. But JR handing Patsy's note pad and pen to investigators seems rather vengeful to me.

 

[mrseeker]

What I meant is that JR helped point the finger at Patsy, either spitefully or with her consent. I am not saying they were stupid. They were also smart enough to know that they could not take her body out of the house that night without drawing the attention of neighbors, leaving tracks and having a warm car engine when the detectives arrived later. They knew they were stuck with the body of their daughter in the basement, but they had to come up with a reason why she was dead, and a botched kidnapping was what they landed on. They gave instructions in the letter, that both of them promptly violated, so that it would look as if the kidnappers had to kill JonBenet b/c of their own violation of the instructions. (These things always come off better in the movies.) That was the best they could do in the situation, and it ended up working well enough for them to get out of the house and behind a wall of lawyers, from which they've never departed. But JR handing Patsy's note pad and pen to investigators seems rather vengeful to me.

Respectfully but i disagree. What would be the higher risk? Some neighbor looking out their window in the middle of the night and noticing their neighbor driving off or police finding a body at a known crime scene? I do not think anyone who would write that stupid note would stop for one minute and think about a neighbor. I do think she was clearly thinking about her husband discovering her actions sleeping a few feet away. PR wrote the note, she staged the scene and she played JR like a fiddle.

 

[Sparko96]

The Ramseys were just a few years away from blaming terrorists. Imagine that rabbit hole!


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[TeaTime]

I think the 'cording' is simply 2 shoelaces. Both pieces measure 21 inches in length.

 

[BBB167893]

I don't believe that at all. The note was written to get JR to leave for the bank that morning so she could move the body to some roadside.

I can't figure that. If they were going to move it at all, daylight was no good. And as for believing that, PR herself told us that, in a way: when she crowed to everyone at the funeral about how "perfect" JonBenet looked in her casket.

She staged it as a sexual attack so she must have wanted it found at some point, so I doubt she would bury her.

Which would just leave her more exposed to bugs and scavengers.

If JR and BR were both involved the body would not be in that house at the time of the 911 call. That is nonsensical. Or they are both really stupid which I do not think they are. I think PR was a little nuts and very high.

I agree with that last part, all right!

 

[BBB167893]

Just so I'm clear on this. You think the parents were solely responsible for all strangulation?

Do you think JonBenet dead or alive when this occurred?

I'd like to answer the second question first. The evidence shows that JonBenet was alive when she was strangled, but only in the most technical sense, ie, barely alive.

As to the first question, yes, I think they did all of that. As to how it was done, I used to think that Patsy did the strangulation, with John telling her, "this is your mess, you clean it up." I'm not so sure of that anymore. I thought that because they were her fibers there, but that just shows she handled those items, not that she used them. Also, you'd figure she did that immediately, which would not account for everything else.

Here's an idea, and I'd like everyone's thoughts on it: PR handled the items; cord, tape, etc. Maybe she even placed the cord around JB's neck, but did nothing with it, thinking that might be enough. If at that point, JR sent her upstairs to write, he would have JB all to himself to do what "needed" doing, sparing Patsy the sight of it. Now, if JB was on her back when Patsy left, she'd be in that position for the paintstick to be jabbed. (JonBenet, please forgive me for doing this.) I think that's when his fibers got into her panties. Then, knowing the cord would not fool anyone as found, he proceeded to actually strangle her, which is the only way to make it look like she was strangled. He had flipped her onto her stomach to do that. Then he'd have to flip her again, because she was on her back when found, and apply the tape (if it wasn't on already, and I don't think it was) and wrist ties.

Thus, since Patsy hadn't seen the cord embedded in JB's neck, she would have been horrified when the body was brought up, even if she was acting it up, laying it on thick.

But, I'm still not completely satisfied that it went down exactly that way. A few problems: one, if Patsy didn't know about the strangulation until the body was brought up, I'm not sure she'd be able to keep acting through that. Two, if John did apply the wrist ties, he, of the two, would know how phony it looked, and would have tied them tighter. But I'm not ever sure about that, because that idea might not have occurred to him until later, thus the story about trying to undo them.

Oh, BROTHER. The more I try to figure this, the more I get twisted up. Life was a LOT easier for me when I was IDI and could just handwave everything away by saying, "well, this person was a psychopath."

 

[BBB167893]

I don't think John would go along with that stupid note. I think he is a logical, pragmatic businessman. I also do not believe he would have called the police until he moved the body along a road somewhere. PR could not leave that house in the middle of the night undetected. It would have been impossible for her to move the body quietly from the basement to the garage, start the car, then come home without JR hearing something. But if she got him out of the house in the AM she could have. If JR was involved in the staging, then they would have worked together and JR would have removed the body, and PR would stage the house...and when all was set, all agreed upon, then the 911 call would be placed. You will never convince me, a man such as JR would ever say, great job PR that note is wonderful. Nobody will ever suspect us..Only an unsophisticated sophisticate ( my made up term) like PR with a wild imagination about how bad men act, and a handful of prescription pills would have ever staged this crime as it was staged.

beautiful dogs btw

Does it occur to anyone that John did not want to go along with that note, and only did so because there was no time to make another and/or no way to dispose of the first one? Beggars can't be choosers. I'm just asking. You make a good case about PR, mrseeker.

 

[akh]

I think any BDI scenario that only accounts for BR hitting her with the flashlight, or other object if the flashlight is wrong, has the problem of needing to explain why they thought they needed a cover story at all (since there was no obvious outer trauma), unless BR told them what he did or they saw it happen. Or if they did need a cover story why couldn't it have been playing it off as an accident? That seems like it would have a higher probability of success than staging a death scene complete with mutilating the body, let alone 'finishing her off', and then trying to make it out to be a kidnapping gone wrong.

I think it would have to be BR taking that option away and turning it into something more desperate for the coverup.

As for planning to move the body from the house... I can't see that being a part of the plan. Certainly not after it was discussed because I think with any two people bouncing ideas off each other that would quickly be ruled out. So by the time the 911 call was made I have my doubts anyone was planning to somehow move the body out of the house. Personally, I think they thought the police would find the body much sooner and therefore think the kidnapper killed JBR because the parents didn't follow directions. Which would then mean there wouldn't be a call from the kidnapper for everyone to be waiting on. Of course truthfully, if an IDI then there'd be no call as well since they'd already know they'd killed her. But that leaves the problem of the parents not really reacting as the time expired with no call. Which at this point would mean the plan was falling apart which could explain JR's reported agitation.

Then you go back to the RN.... What about the RN would make someone think this was a sex crime? IOW, why stage a sexual abuse scene for that ransom note you've created?

I'm still left thinking the parents cleaned her up to hide any SA from BR. I'm thinking strangulation was him. I think he left a horrific scene that ruled out them being able to claim accident. Or even sibling argument gone wrong.

And if one of the parents would've done it then I don't think the other would've rallied around him/her to protect them. It only makes sense to me that the two of them would circle the wagons to protect a common interest: their son.

So if it's not BR then it must be an intruder. But too much makes no sense for an intruder.