Was Burke Involved? # 4

[ThinkHard]

They made Burke look up to her and he was mad.

Case closed.

Didn't a guy with Aspergers toss his mother off a boat 2 weeks ago and was suspected of killing his grandfather several years ago.

-Nathan Carman-

Aspergers doesn't make you into a criminal. If you have aspergers and turn to murder it's not because of the aspergers, it's because something else is wrong with you ON TOP of aspergers.

 

[johnjay]

(I'm not sure how we're misunderstanding each other.) There are only two knots on the ligature: the one securing the cord to the paintbrush and the one near her neck which your are calling "the knot on noose part." Am I right?

It's a confusing device and perhaps I'm not being clear. I'll try again. From the AR:

Blonde hair is entwined in the knot on the posterior aspect of the neck as well as in the cord wrapped around the wooden stick.

So one place that hair was entwined was in the knot (the slip knot) that formed the noose around her neck. i.e. "Blonde hair is entwined in the knot on the posterior aspect of the neck"

And blonde hair was also found entwined around the cord by the stick - the AP doesn't say entwined in the knot at the stick but rather entwined in the cord wrapped around the stick. "as well as in the cord wrapped around the wooden stick".

Now the hair may have been tied into the slip knot, (which I assume) or it may, as I think you suggested, have been caught in the knot as it slid to tighten. And then there's the question of how hair got entwined in the cord wrapped around the stick.

 

[Heymom]

So what are your thoughts on the angle? Upward angle? Someone was behind her pulling upward? And then it after it slipped into the final location...the knot was tied?

Do you think she was unconscious at this time of strangulation? Already hit on the head and unconscious for 90 minutes...heart still beating; brain swelling; and then strangulation from behind.

IMO...BR did all of the above out of anger/jealousy. Psychopath? BR went back to bed and then PR found her this way and staged ransom note and tape; possibly cleaned her and changed underwear; blanket around her; tying of hands above head after she was turned over to her back.

Not sure when JR got involved.

Someone posted they thought the barbie nightgown was possibly attached to the blanket from the dryer with static cling. Makes sense.

Yes I think she was unconscious when she was strangled. She'd already been hit, her skull was fractured, she might have had blood coming from her ear(s) and possibly her nose. Things were done to her as she lay there helpless. Eventually the cord was tied and she was finished off. At some point Patsy found her and I believe that was the scream that was heard by the neighbor (later retracted - why?). I believe John was involved from the start, but may not have wanted to cover it up the way Patsy did. There may have been too many mistakes made, or the drama was a little too much, or something.

I do not agree with Dr. Spitz and I think the CBS special emphasized the flashlight, which is his theory and the basis for it is wrong, as the murder weapon, for unknown reasons. Also they downplayed the sexual assault aspects to the point where it seemed as if they believe she wasn't even assaulted that night, let alone previously. I don't know if they were going to deal with that in the 2 hours that were cut from the program.

I know all of this is horrendous to consider, and many people don't want to face what's possible from a 9 year old child, but that's what I've come to over the last few years. Chief Kolar's book was staggering for me and so many things made sense after that. Burke's creepy interview and watching him when he was 9 and 11 just solidified it all in my mind.

 

[HarmonyE.]

Am not happy about it bue Wood will probably win against these kind of speculations based on assumptions. This is not justice.

A civil suit would not be about criminal justice. It would be about allegations of defamation of character vs. the First Amendment.

Despite his claims, Lin Wood has NEVER won an actual civil suit on behalf of Burke or any other Ramsey. He has sued people and entities who have settled out with him rather than defend the case. This is how the Ramseys played the game - the best defense is a good offense. People who otherwise would have spoken out or been more direct in their positions (Kolar, for example) were afraid of being sued. Those who were sued were afraid of losing to Lin Wood probably because they couldn't afford a solid defense attorney. In some instances, entities who could afford a defense didn't know much about the case and couldn't be bothered to spend money defending the suit so they settled. Kolar pointed this out in his book.

This situation is different. Burke Ramsey has now made himself a clear public figure by going on Dr. Phil (I still can't believe Lin okayed this) and raised the bar much higher for himself. Because he's put himself out there, he now has to prove not only that CBS lied, but that did it with malice. CBS will be hiring attorneys for all experts who appeared on the show. Do Wood and JR really want to do this? The Ramseys will almost certainly come out looking even worse than they do now if CBS doesn't settle. And I can't imagine how Burke will handle days of questions about that night, his relationship with his sister, and pineapple. Lots of pineapple.

 

[johnjay]

Yes I think she was unconscious when she was strangled. She'd already been hit, her skull was fractured, she might have had blood coming from her ear(s) and possibly her nose. Things were done to her as she lay there helpless. Eventually the cord was tied and she was finished off. At some point Patsy found her and I believe that was the scream that was heard by the neighbor (later retracted - why?).

Did the neighbor explain why they retracted hearing the scream? How does one think they heard a scream and then think not?

I believe John was involved from the start, but may not have wanted to cover it up the way Patsy did. There may have been too many mistakes made, or the drama was a little too much, or something.

I do not agree with Dr. Spitz and I think the CBS special emphasized the flashlight, which is his theory and the basis for it is wrong, as the murder weapon, for unknown reasons.

Why do you think Spitz is wrong about the flashlight being the murder weapon? They seemed to come up with a very convincing demonstration of how it could have happened.

Also they downplayed the sexual assault aspects to the point where it seemed as if they believe she wasn't even assaulted that night, let alone previously. I don't know if they were going to deal with that in the 2 hours that were cut from the program.

The way they handled the garrote and the rest was very disappointing. Perhaps CBS thought that was too horrific to put on the air.

I know all of this is horrendous to consider, and many people don't want to face what's possible from a 9 year old child, but that's what I've come to over the last few years. Chief Kolar's book was staggering for me and so many things made sense after that. Burke's creepy interview and watching him when he was 9 and 11 just solidified it all in my mind.

 

[Luckymanuh]

I had watched A&E show The Killing of JonBenet Ramsey: Her Father speaks and I was taken back by a comment he made about BR. He commented on all the comments made about BR smiling during the interview on DP. He said, "Burke is a happy kid. That is why he smiles when he talks. I do it too." Number one Burke is an adult not a child anymore. Number two JR does smile when he talks but not when he talks about the murder of his daughter. I would like to see a conversation with BR not about his sister's murder. See if he actually smiles the whole time.

 

[Heymom]

Did the neighbor explain why they retracted hearing the scream? How does one think they heard a scream and then think not?



Why do you think Spitz is wrong about the flashlight being the murder weapon? They seemed to come up with a very convincing demonstration of how it could have happened.



The way they handled the garrote and the rest was very disappointing. Perhaps CBS thought that was too horrific to put on the air.

Spitz is wrong because he thinks the head wound was rectangular, when it was really an oval. See otg's explanation of that mistake. When you start out with such a foundational error, how can any of your conclusions then be correct?

I do not know why the neighbor retracted her statement. Maybe the Ramsey investigators and law team got to her and threatened her with suits. Or maybe she really didn't hear it. I don't know if she testified in front of the GJ.

 

[Heymom]

I had watched A&E show The Killing of JonBenet Ramsey: Her Father speaks and I was taken back by a comment he made about BR. He commented on all the comments made about BR smiling during the interview on DP. He said, "Burke is a happy kid. That is why he smiles when he talks. I do it too." Number one Burke is an adult not a child anymore. Number two JR does smile when he talks but not when he talks about the murder of his daughter. I would like to see a conversation with BR not about his sister's murder. See if he actually smiles the whole time.

JR has a completely different but just as troubling facial "tic" if you will. On FFJ we named him Lizard Lips because in all of his interviews, he frequently sticks his tongue out quite far and resembles nothing more than a snake or a lizard. Someone put a video together and I will see if I can find it and post it here. You will laugh, but then want to :sick:

 

[No it's not]

I am wondering how the relationship is *now* between BR and JR..? If JR and PR covered up for BR and BR did hit JBR over the head, but did not apply the ligature - some theories posted here- then technically he did not kill his sister, but his parents did. Could also be he did apply the ligature, but it was just for play and he never pulled it tight. If that was the case, then did BR ever "blackmail" JR and PR? Is that one of the reasons he did the interview "remembering" some "facts" like his dad using the flashlight etc.? $$$

-Nin

 

[dogperson]

I no longer think the insertion of a paintbrush in the vagina was staging. I think it was part of the entire act that took place. It may have been the catalyst for the head wound and the strangling, if the paintbrush incident happened first.

I am not sure whether I think the parents knew JBR was being sexually abused. If BR was the one doing it, they may not have known, or else why leave JBRs bedroom on the same floor as BRs? Why allow there to EVER be a chance the two of them could be alone? I believe the Ramseys knew BR was mean to her, jealous of her, and had a scary temper, which is why the Grand Jury said they allowed her to be in a dangerous situation, but the sexual abuse may have been well hidden. It often is. The victim feels ashamed or to blame for it. The victim may be threatened not to tell. They may believe lies the perpetrator has told them about what will happen if they go for help. I believe the GJ definitely felt the Ramseys should have known JBR was in danger for her life but as to whether they knew she was being sexually abused, I think it's likely they did not know and there would be no reason for them to try and cover it up by inserting a paintbrush.

 

[CindyTx]

In the interview with Dr. Phil, Burke says,

“I remember the viewing,” Burke Ramsey, now 29, said. “The casket was small; her eyes were closed.”

Of course her eyes were closed!!!!! Was he remembering when she was dead before, her eyes were open?

IMO...just seems like a strange thing to say. Usually people say, she looked like she was sleeping; she looked so peaceful; she was wearing such a pretty dress, etc.

 

[Luckymanuh]

In the interview with Dr. Phil, Burke says,

“I remember the viewing,” Burke Ramsey, now 29, said. “The casket was small; her eyes were closed.”

Of course her eyes were closed!!!!! Was he remembering when she was dead before, her eyes were open?

IMO...just seems like a strange thing to say. Usually people say, she looked like she was sleeping; she looked so peaceful; she was wearing such a pretty dress, etc.

Especially for a grown man!! Nice catch.

 

[CindyTx]

Another thought I had today...if the Hi-Tek footprint was Burke's (IMO, it was his), why was he wearing his hiking boots in the house? Even in Colorado, I would not wear hiking boots in the house unless I had plans to head outside.

Had he already been outside? Was he planning to go outside? Two possibilities of why he would go outside...1. to get his friend to "play" with JBR that night after his parents went to bed (possible source of male DNA?); 2. to try to take JBR's body out to hide it?

 

[Luckymanuh]

Another thought I had today...if the Hi-Tek footprint was Burke's (IMO, it was his), why was he wearing his hiking boots in the house? Even in Colorado, I would not wear hiking boots in the house unless I had plans to head outside.

Had he already been outside? Was he planning to go outside? Two possibilities of why he would go outside...1. to get his friend to "play" with JBR that night after his parents went to bed (possible source of male DNA?); 2. to try to take JBR's body out to hide it?

Intersting thought being he knew his baseball bat was outside in the dead of winter in CO

 

[JerseyGirl33]

Did anyone hear about the Lifetime movie on JobBenet? I think it's going to air this month. When I know for certain, I will post the info.

 

[johnjay]

Did anyone hear about the Lifetime movie on JobBenet? I think it's going to air this month. When I know for certain, I will post the info.

[video=youtube;gr0jLnBxrSA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gr0jLnBxrSA[/video]

 

[johnjay]

[video=youtube;YvK35M2uIPQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvK35M2uIPQ[/video]

 

[otg]

Right, but if the cord where so long, and presumably longer before being tied, and JBR's hair was much shorter. Then it seems like given the length of line one could have daily attached the paintbrush with it catching any of JBRs hair in it. Yet despite the length her hair was stil caught in the line.

That to me, even though you see otherwise, points to the fact that the paintbrush was tied on the line when it was used in JBR. We might not be clear on how it was used but it's clear to me that her hair is entwined in the line for betting caught in a preexisting knot, rather then from being tied up in one.

Regardless of the length of hair or the length of the cord, I can see where the hair could either be caught or not caught in the knots depending on how closely it was held while being wrapped around the stick and tied. And either way, it isn't proof that it was tied before or after she was dead or unconscious, strangled or not.

Just because you choose to see the information one way and I another does not make you right and me wrong, it is merely each of our opinion on how we are interpreting the same data. We are clearly just seeing vastly different things.

That's true. But since I don't see it as proof either way, I don't understand why you keep trying to insist it means something based simply on what you think you see in one photo. Instead of it coming down to you and I simply having different opinions, I'm going to go with the ME who actually saw it himself on her dead body, removed it, was able to examine it closely from any angle he chose (not simply looking at a single photo), and then wrote:

"Blonde hair is entwined in the knot on the posterior aspect of the neck as well as in the cord wrapped around the wooden stick."
​

 

[otg]

(bbm)

It actually could be 17 inches from scalp to tip. IMO since I don't any children handy to measure. My former preschool classes used to be helpful for these things but I've changed jobs. But when I was 7, my mother got my hair cut and they cut a foot off and I still had shoulder length or slightly longer hair and my hair wasn't crazy long prior. I'm certain one of y'all out there have a 6-year old around somewhere.... So... Hintedy hint hint they don't have to know why you're measuring their hair.

Eta: among a gazillion other details and major facts that would be great to have more clarity on in this case, whether or not there were skin tag things on the end of the hair would be helpful information right about now.

You are correct that knowing about whether the hair had to be cut by the ME or had already been pulled out by the roots would tell us more. We had discussed this here at WS long ago, and when Tricia had James Kolar on her podcast, our poster Cynic tried to get that information out of him. He never got a definitive answer, and as I recall, Kolar seemed to fall back on his not having looked at the evidence for a long time and not really remembering well enough to answer.

 

[Luckymanuh]

Did anyone hear about the Lifetime movie on JobBenet? I think it's going to air this month. When I know for certain, I will post the info.

Coming in November.