Was Burke involved?

[ILikeToBendPages]

Good question but from what I understand at this point in time is that the electical marks found on JB were possibly related to trains in the basement. The closet outside the trainroom had electrical leads from the ceiling, one of which was hot. I could be totally off the mark on this one and admit it openly.

I'm sure somebody here will point us in the correct direction.

Look at the photo of the two electrical cords on the floor along with two pieces of train track. Follow the cords. One goes to a small black box (power pack?) and the other to the train transformer on the left side of the photos sitting on the edge of a white table.

You can "make" a form of a stun device with those items.

 

[Flatlander]

Look at the photo of the two electrical cords on the floor along with two pieces of train track. Follow the cords. One goes to a small black box (power pack?) and the other to the train transformer on the left side of the photos sitting on the edge of a white table.

You can "make" a form of a stun device with those items.

Thanks ILikeToBendPages! I haven't seen the photo's. Do you have a link. I've been working long hours and playing catch up here. But this thoery makes sense. So is it speculated that the mark on little JB's face is from the torture device as well? Or is it still a button imprint with a boat in it?

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

Thanks ILikeToBendPages! I haven't seen the photo's. Do you have a link. I've been working long hours and playing catch up here. But this thoery makes sense. So is it speculated that the mark on little JB's face is from the torture device as well? Or is it still a button imprint with a boat in it?

I found the vidieo on the Daily Beast and still photo's on FFJ site of the window and the other rooms.

I know there was some discussion about the size and shape of the metal ends on the track that could be connected to the leads on the floor. I think some one jabbed and twisted one similar on their arm and the marks it made were close. I don't think they tried it with any electrical involved.

I've haven't heard anything about a button.

I'm still trying to figure out what the metal stand? rack? is in one of the first photos. Could that of been something JonBenet,(if she had been shocked), could of slammed her head into?

I'm sorry but I still don't know how to do link's and many other things.

 

[DeeDee249]

Good question but from what I understand at this point in time is that the electical marks found on JB were possibly related to trains in the basement. The closet outside the trainroom had electrical leads from the ceiling, one of which was hot. I could be totally off the mark on this one and admit it openly.

I'm sure somebody here will point us in the correct direction.

Don't get too carried away on the "electrical" marks found on JB. NONE were found. The stun gun was Lou Smit's idea, and his reality is not fact-based in this case. The coroner noted the marks as "abrasions". The Rs knew what made them, and when LE wanted to exhume JB's body shortly after her burial, the parents refused and the DA refused to override them by requesting a warrant. So I think we can infer from their refusal that they already knew they were not electrical burns and didn't want it proven. Lack of proof is VERY important to the RST. This way, they can just say whatever they want. Her body was NEVER tested to see of the marks were electrical burns.
In the amount of time that lapsed between JB's likely death (determined from the pineapple in her digestive tract and rigor mortis levels) that would be needed to rig up some elaborate shocking contraption would have necessitated it being done with the parents still walking around the house.
Sometimes the simplest answer is the correct one. She was penetrated, she bled, she screamed, she was bashed. The rest came after, as she was dying.
The "boat-shaped structure" is mentioned by a forensic specialist (not the coroner who did the autopsy) and if you can see the avatar of FR Brown, you'll see it clearly in his enhanced photo. It has been suggested she was leaning on a snap or button. None were found in the area, nor any garment that had anything to make that impression. Some have suggested it was from a ring Patsy is often seen wearing- a multi-stone ring that is loose enough to swing around to her palm and seems to match up with a close-up of the marks. The photos of the ring and stone patters superimposed on JB's marks were posted here a while back. I don't save things like that, but someone else may have them.

 

[otg]

I found the vidieo on the Daily Beast and still photo's on FFJ site of the window and the other rooms.

I know there was some discussion about the size and shape of the metal ends on the track that could be connected to the leads on the floor. I think some one jabbed and twisted one similar on their arm and the marks it made were close. I don't think they tried it with any electrical involved.

I've haven't heard anything about a button.

I'm still trying to figure out what the metal stand? rack? is in one of the first photos. Could that of been something JonBenet,(if she had been shocked), could of slammed her head into?

I'm sorry but I still don't know how to do link's and many other things.

Could you be referring to this:

If so,
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8203185#post8203185"]Observations from the Video on TDB - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame].
.

 

[DeeDee249]

That looks like an insert for a fireplace, with a chrome metal grill and andirons.

 

[otg]

That looks like an insert for a fireplace, with a chrome metal grill and andirons.

Ya' know, DD... now that you mention the irons...

This photo would be in the same room as JBR's body?

I wonder where the rest of the fireplace tools were located.
.

 

[DeeDee249]

That looks like the same room- the way I have read it described, though I don't know if the photo of the fireplace insert was taken in the same room. Did Kolar state that fireplace photo was taken in the WC? The house had at least one fireplace.
I am glad you posted that pic. Look closely at the doorway. You can see the carpet on the floor that stops at the threshold of the wineceller. You can easily see the WALL immediately to the left of FW as he stood at the doorway looking into the dark room. He LOOKED in, he did not STEP inside. He would have had to step into the room and look to the left to have seen her, even if he had found the light switch and even with the light from the hallway behind him. And there are the paint cans that might have been moved to make room for JB's body. The husband of the neighbor who heard the midnight scream heard what he described as "metal scraping concrete" when his wife woke him after she heard the scream. There is also a piece of sheet metal that covered what was said to be a floor safe.
This pic was from a tabloid. In the police crime photo, you do not see the paint cans or sheet metal, but the police photo was cropped, so that is likely why. The room was described as having the paint cans, so I feel the tabloid one is accurate. JB's crumpled white blanket/pink nightie/duct tape was further back in the room.

BTW, that photo of a sad-looking JB was taken at the Christmas Parade -she had won "Little Miss Christmas" that year (and gotten the Santa Bear as a prize). Patsy and JR were away that weekend in NYC. Nedra and Grandpa P were babysitting. JB was riding in a convertible car or float, as I recall. She doesn't look like she is having too much fun, does she? Poor little thing. That photo is heartbreaking. And not too long from then she'll be riding in a different kind of "parade"- in a funeral hearse.

 

[Tadpole12]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/07/18/new-clues-in-jonbenet-ramsey-murder.html

So it's a decorative fireplace insert, either electrical or gas, and if it's gas an existing chimney could be used as venting.

 

[redheadedgal]

a few of you know i've been driving from windsor, ON to BC... while i was in north dakota last week i drove through both ramsey county and burke county... needless to say it's odd how that mirrors who i believe was responsible for the head bash...

 

[UKGuy]

That looks like the same room- the way I have read it described, though I don't know if the photo of the fireplace insert was taken in the same room. Did Kolar state that fireplace photo was taken in the WC? The house had at least one fireplace.
I am glad you posted that pic. Look closely at the doorway. You can see the carpet on the floor that stops at the threshold of the wineceller. You can easily see the WALL immediately to the left of FW as he stood at the doorway looking into the dark room. He LOOKED in, he did not STEP inside. He would have had to step into the room and look to the left to have seen her, even if he had found the light switch and even with the light from the hallway behind him. And there are the paint cans that might have been moved to make room for JB's body. The husband of the neighbor who heard the midnight scream heard what he described as "metal scraping concrete" when his wife woke him after she heard the scream. There is also a piece of sheet metal that covered what was said to be a floor safe.
This pic was from a tabloid. In the police crime photo, you do not see the paint cans or sheet metal, but the police photo was cropped, so that is likely why. The room was described as having the paint cans, so I feel the tabloid one is accurate. JB's crumpled white blanket/pink nightie/duct tape was further back in the room.

BTW, that photo of a sad-looking JB was taken at the Christmas Parade -she had won "Little Miss Christmas" that year (and gotten the Santa Bear as a prize). Patsy and JR were away that weekend in NYC. Nedra and Grandpa P were babysitting. JB was riding in a convertible car or float, as I recall. She doesn't look like she is having too much fun, does she? Poor little thing. That photo is heartbreaking. And not too long from then she'll be riding in a different kind of "parade"- in a funeral hearse.

DeeDee249,

You can easily see the WALL immediately to the left of FW as he stood at the doorway looking into the dark room. He LOOKED in, he did not STEP inside.

This is why we need to hear what he witnessed. He may have only looked in, then again he may have paused and twisted his head to the left, and his peripheral vision might have been aware of the white bundle?

How do we know how attentive he was, was his search as cursory as you suggest, or was he more methodical? I would like to hear it from the horses mouth.


.

 

[midwest mama]

The colored photo in this thread by the Nat Enq points out a fireplace tool. In another article somewhere in the sea of info about this case, I accepted the statement made that the N.E. advised they had placed the log-grabber fireplace tool in the photo.

Is there any mention that has been noticed about the heavy-looking golden 'statue' that appears in one of the train room photos which shows a shelf unit with a pink purse, piece of train equip, and a brass candlestick holder?
The 'statue' looks like a cherub to me, kind of in repose. It looks like polished brass to me. This would have made a pretty good weapon if it was grabbed by the leg end and the head end connected with JB's head. :moo:

 

[otg]

The colored photo in this thread by the Nat Enq points out a fireplace tool. In another article somewhere in the sea of info about this case, I accepted the statement made that the N.E. advised they had placed the log-grabber fireplace tool in the photo.

Question about my bolded:
The complete set of fireplace tools has obviously been inset to the photo to illustrate what that particular tool shown in the photo is. Are you saying they advised that they had placed that complete set in the photo (so as to eliminate any possible confusion over it), or are you saying that they later admitted that they had completely faked the photo by superimposing the log-grabber into the photo?

Is there any mention that has been noticed about the heavy-looking golden 'statue' that appears in one of the train room photos which shows a shelf unit with a pink purse, piece of train equip, and a brass candlestick holder?
The 'statue' looks like a cherub to me, kind of in repose. It looks like polished brass to me. This would have made a pretty good weapon if it was grabbed by the leg end and the head end connected with JB's head. :moo:

This would be the cherub statue you are referring to in the bottom of the frame?

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[otg]

This would be the cherub statue you are referring to in the bottom of the frame?

After I posted the above screen capture for you, midwest mama, I found a better one at FFJ. I'll just post the link here.

BTW, there is a wealth of information there, as well as photos and documentation that can be used. The evidence files are [ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=16"]here[/ame].
.

 

[midwest mama]

Question about my bolded:
The complete set of fireplace tools has obviously been inset to the photo to illustrate what that particular tool shown in the photo is. Are you saying they advised that they had placed that complete set in the photo (so as to eliminate any possible confusion over it), or are you saying that they later admitted that they had completely faked the photo by superimposing the log-grabber into the photo?

This would be the cherub statue you are referring to in the bottom of the frame?

.

Anwers: My interpretation of what I recall reading was that the National Enquirer admitted they had inserted the grabber into the photo along the wall, as well as a couple of the other items, one being the group of paint cans. And yes, that golden object is the one of which I am referring.

 

[otg]

Anwers: My interpretation of what I recall reading was that the National Enquirer admitted they had inserted the grabber into the photo along the wall, as well as a couple of the other items, one being the group of paint cans. And yes, that golden object is the one of which I am referring.

Hmm... I couldn't find any other references to the log-grabber or the story of NE faking the photo. Oh, well.

On another note... While looking at the picture (around the paint cans), I see for the first time the cigar box that belonged to JR.
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[OpenMind4U]

Hmm... I couldn't find any other references to the log-grabber or the story of NE faking the photo. Oh, well.

On another note... While looking at the picture (around the paint cans), I see for the first time the cigar box that belonged to JR.
.

otg,

In regards of other possible weapon which could cause JBR head injury...Yesterday, while reading/re-reading AR, I got kind of 'new' idea (I don't know if it ever was discussed here or on FFJ).

JBR was 47" tall. The head injury has the 'rectangular' hole: 1 3/4" x 1/2".

Based on photo's from Ramseys house (from candyrose archive), the inner doors of Ramsey house have the 'knob'-style handles. (Except the kitchen. Kitchen has the 'pull-hand' style handles). Per builder's code, the standard knob-style handles should be mounted on the door at 40" hight from the raw floor. The standard dimension of the round knob handle (are you ready?) is 1 3/4" x 1/2".

With the forcefull blow + the minimum angle for projected impact + JBR being 47" tall = her head should hit the SIDE of the knob handle right on the spot as AR indicates, leaving the corresponding with knob size hole. Do you know what I mean? I know you're one of the best methodical 'researcher' here......What's your opinion?

 

[otg]

otg,

In regards of other possible weapon which could cause JBR head injury...Yesterday, while reading/re-reading AR, I got kind of 'new' idea (I don't know if it ever was discussed here or on FFJ).

JBR was 47" tall. The head injury has the 'rectangular' hole: 1 3/4" x 1/2".

Based on photo's from Ramseys house (from candyrose archive), the inner doors of Ramsey house have the 'knob'-style handles. (Except the kitchen. Kitchen has the 'pull-hand' style handles). Per builder's code, the standard knob-style handles should be mounted on the door at 40" hight from the raw floor. The standard dimension of the round knob handle (are you ready?) is 1 3/4" x 1/2".

With the forcefull blow + the minimum angle for projected impact + JBR being 47" tall = her head should hit the SIDE of the knob handle right on the spot as AR indicates, leaving the corresponding with knob size hole. Do you know what I mean? I know you're one of the best methodical 'researcher' here......What's your opinion?

That's very interesting, OM4U. I haven't been able to find a good picture of any of the door knobs at ACR. So if you have a link, I'd appreciate it.

I know that Meyer described the depressed fracture as "rectangular", and everyone has accepted it, but he was wrong (and actually this will go further in the direction you are going than if he had been correct). Take a look at what I posted here at FFJ. It's easy to see that this is not rectangular -- it's oval-shaped (almost perfectly). Another thing you'll see on the edge of the oval at the lambdoid suture is (I believe) an intra-sutural bone (also called a wormian bone, named after Ole Worm -- really).

I'm still trying to resolve the issue (in my mind anyway) about the length of time between head blow and strangulation. I'll be posting a lot more on this when I'm finished.
.

 

[qtc]

Was there no indention of the skin at all, or some kind of imprint from the object that struck her in the head? Or did her hair protect the skin from any damage?

 

[otg]

Was there no indention of the skin at all, or some kind of imprint from the object that struck her in the head? Or did her hair protect the skin from any damage?

There was no notice of a head blow until the coroner (Dr. Meyer) cut and peeled back her scalp. Most likely, qtc (nice name, btw), you are correct that her hair probably cushioned the scalp enough to prevent any type of noticeable abrasion. Had he known to be looking for it before he reflected the scalp, he might have seen something.
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