Was Burke involved?

[Venom]

I haven't read it Venom. I might get a used copy once they start selling for 99 cents on Amazon. The only thing I really want to read that John Ramsey has to say is a court transcript of his sworn testimony and/or his depositions.

I wouldn't mind reading it, but don't think I could bring myself to buy it for full price.

 

[Venom]

Thanks UKGuy. Do you know anything about Burke's DNA and the white blanket?

Touch DNA on the Barbie nightgown is like the fibers and other Touch DNA to me. Maybe useful. Maybe not. Since we don't really know if the blanket and/or Barbie gown were laundered it doesn't prove much, only possibilities. Maybe Burke's Touch DNA was transferred by Patsy or John or maybe Burke. How do we know which one and how do we know when? (rhetorical questions)

BOESP, I found this:

* The blanket wrapped around JonBenet's body had been left in the dryer. There was still a Barbie Doll nightgown clinging to the blanket, so it had to have come out of the dryer recently, she said. Only Patsy would have known it was in the dryer, she said.

What the housekeeper (LHP) said. From here: http://www.rense.com/general11/benet.htm

 

[Linda7NJ]

I wouldn't mind reading it, but don't think I could bring myself to buy it for full price.

I've never read it for that reason. I've read bits and pieces quoted here and elsewhere.


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[BOESP]

Thanks. I knew it was on the nightgown, but I thought I saw it was on the blanket too.

Thanks for the update, Venom.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but iirc there were fibers and at least one ancillary hair found on the blanket but I don't know about DNA. The ancillary hair was said to have been consistent with a forearm hair from Patsy Ramsey.

 

[BOESP]

I've read Kolar's book but forgot about the Barbie nightgown having Burke's DNA on it. Now to find out if it is Touch DNA that came directly from Burke or was it a secondary transfer?

Anyway, thanks Venom for the update.

 

[redheadedgal]

I haven't read it Venom. I might get a used copy once they start selling for 99 cents on Amazon. The only thing I really want to read that John Ramsey has to say is a court transcript of his sworn testimony and/or his depositions.

try your local public library... save yourself the .99 :floorlaugh:

:seeya:

 

[2 percent]

I am not BDI either, but I can certainly see this possibility. ST's theory was that PDI as a result of rage brought on by the bed wetting. Maybe the rage was brought on by finding B and JB "playihg doctor" so to speak.

That could also go a long way to explaining the pineapple and the reason they lied about it.. Maybe Burke fed her the Pineapple, then proceeded to something else, Patsy caught them , lost her temper, etc.

The theory being that a 9 year old successfully seduced his younger sister late at night into a game of sexual penetration, with injuries that bled - which means there was pain, too - and she didn't fight him or scream the house down?
I don't think that's very likely.

So Patsy finds them playing doctor, loses it and kills JB probably unintentionally and you still have the ST basic theory.

How is it that both children are playing doctor but only JB was targeted by PR' s rage? Wouldn't PR see BR as the instigator? He is the one touching/penetrating his sister.

It's not that I can't see a parent flipping out upon seeing something like that. I just can't see only one child being flipped out on to the point of death while the other is both physically and emotionally unscathed during the same flip out.

 

[chlban]

The theory being that a 9 year old successfully seduced his younger sister late at night into a game of sexual penetration, with injuries that bled - which means there was pain, too - and she didn't fight him or scream the house down?
I don't think that's very likely.

I am not suggesting sexual penetration. I am suggesting exploring, touching, etc. I think the sexual penetration element was part of the staging.

How is it that both children are playing doctor but only JB was targeted by PR' s rage? Wouldn't PR see BR as the instigator? He is the one touching/penetrating his sister.

She could easily have swung at Burke and hit JonBenet with the Flashlight. Or, as crazy as Patsy was, she may have blamed JB for "seducing" Burke. Add to that impairment from drugs or alcohol or both and yes, I thikn it's entirely possible.

 

[SapphireSteel]

It helps to remember that this was Christmas Night, those kids had been dragged from pillar to post all day, with maximum excitement levels.

Anyone who has little kids knows what a big day does to them.

They collapse, zonk out, fall over. They sleep, sometimes even where they sit, with a forkful of food halfway to their mouth.

Are we to believe that B had not quite had enough excitement for one day, waited until his parents were asleep, silently dragged his sleeping/protesting sister downstairs for an impromptu game of doctor at 1am then smacked her over the head, also silently????

Seriously?

:scared:

Then what did he do? Did he run and tell his parents? No - he was heard on the 911 call asking what they had found.

If he had called for them, he would know what they found.

If he was discovered in the middle of the "game", ditto.

The presence of Burke on that 911 call tells me he was absolutely not part of any of this mess...so does my common sense.

:cow:

 

[dodie20]

It helps to remember that this was Christmas Night, those kids had been dragged from pillar to post all day, with maximum excitement levels.

Anyone who has little kids knows what a big day does to them.

They collapse, zonk out, fall over. They sleep, sometimes even where they sit, with a forkful of food halfway to their mouth.

Are we to believe that B had not quite had enough excitement for one day, waited until his parents were asleep, silently dragged his sleeping/protesting sister downstairs for an impromptu game of doctor at 1am then smacked her over the head, also silently????

Seriously?

:scared:

Then what did he do? Did he run and tell his parents? No - he was heard on the 911 call asking what they had found.

If he had called for them, he would know what they found.

If he was discovered in the middle of the "game", ditto.

The presence of Burke on that 911 call tells me he was absolutely not part of any of this mess...so does my common sense.

:cow:

I've never had 100 percent confidence in the expert findings on the 911, but going by what they said they heard through enhancement, BR's words don't sound like he was in on some big conspiracy. Something like 'what did you find?' and then his dad saying something like, 'we're not speaking to you'. If this was some big cover up involving BR, wouldn't you think he'd be the one person they talked to the most? moo

 

[SapphireSteel]

I've never had 100 percent confidence in the expert findings on the 911, but going by what they said they heard through enhancement, BR's words don't sound like he was in on some big conspiracy. Something like 'what did you find?' and then his dad saying something like, 'we're not speaking to you'. If this was some big cover up involving BR, wouldn't you think he'd be the one person they talked to the most? moo

I think his comment on that call is proof he wasn't involved. They would have prepped him first, over and over, then prepped him one more time before they made the call, if he had been part of the crime.

I actually think they were so busy with JB, they forgot about Burke.

Either that or he was so dominated already they knew he would do as he was told so he wasn't a priority. He was ignored (as usual), and left to wander about and ask inconvenient questions that were caught on tape.

:cow:

 

[blefuscu]

If B had been sexually abusing JB then how would the parents have known, it's not something you discuss over the dinner table. Therefore there is no reason for them not to take her to hospital. Plus if they knew it was happening why would they allow it to continue?

Secondly DNA is only significant when found in locations it shouldn't be. Finding B and PR's touch DNA on a blanket and nightgown in a house where they live isn't really significant is it? We all touch things in our homes all the time without thinking. It could be easily explained away in court.

 

[Linda7NJ]

If B had been sexually abusing JB then how would the parents have known, it's not something you discuss over the dinner table. Therefore there is no reason for them not to take her to hospital. Plus if they knew it was happening why would they allow it to continue?

Secondly DNA is only significant when found in locations it shouldn't be. Finding B and PR's touch DNA on a blanket and nightgown in a house where they live isn't really significant is it? We all touch things in our homes all the time without thinking. It could be easily explained away in court.

The books given to Patsy on troubling child behavior are interesting.


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[questfortrue]

I am not suggesting sexual penetration. I am suggesting exploring, touching, etc. I think the sexual penetration element was part of the staging.



She could easily have swung at Burke and hit JonBenet with the Flashlight. Or, as crazy as Patsy was, she may have blamed JB for "seducing" Burke. Add to that impairment from drugs or alcohol or both and yes, I thikn it's entirely possible.

It’s been my experience to best rely on the experts when it comes to a description of JB’s injuries. (Plus our famous long-term posters who’ve studied this and helped me to understand.) From a discussion of the “bifingent" material, it was concluded by most experts that a paintbrush had been inserted shortly before her death. (staging?) However, not trying to be too graphic here, but this is from the autopsy: “Inside the vestibule of the vagina, and along the distal vaginal wall is reddish hyperemia.” (Excess of blood in the vessels, blood congestion) “This hyperemia is circumferential and perhaps more noticeable on the right side and posteriorly. The hyperemia also appears to extend just inside the vaginal orifice.” In Cyril Wecht’s evaluation of the “circumferential”, whatever had caused the mark had moved in a circular motion. To Wecht’s analysis this could be consistent with a finger.

Just to provide some information from coroners, and anyone here can make their own conclusions.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

It helps to remember that this was Christmas Night, those kids had been dragged from pillar to post all day, with maximum excitement levels.

Anyone who has little kids knows what a big day does to them.

They collapse, zonk out, fall over. They sleep, sometimes even where they sit, with a forkful of food halfway to their mouth.

Are we to believe that B had not quite had enough excitement for one day, waited until his parents were asleep, silently dragged his sleeping/protesting sister downstairs for an impromptu game of doctor at 1am then smacked her over the head, also silently????

Seriously?

:scared:

Then what did he do? Did he run and tell his parents? No - he was heard on the 911 call asking what they had found.

If he had called for them, he would know what they found.

If he was discovered in the middle of the "game", ditto.

The presence of Burke on that 911 call tells me he was absolutely not part of any of this mess...so does my common sense.

:cow:

Couldn't one argue that due to the fact that the family was going to Michigan the next door, were going to see the older siblings, maybe getting more presents, that JonBenet and Burke would be very excited and not able to fall asleep?

 

[SapphireSteel]

Couldn't one argue that due to the fact that the family was going to Michigan the next door, were going to see the older siblings, maybe getting more presents, that JonBenet and Burke would be very excited and not able to fall asleep?

What time on Christmas morning did your kids wake up?

I was lucky to sleep in past 5am.

Assuming B and JB were excited about Christmas Day as most other children, they would have been up at the crack of dawn too.

Let's say, 7am.

JB wasn't hit until about 1.30 IIRC.

That's an 18 1/2 hour day....a BIG day too, lots of excitement, travelling, food, socialising.

That would exhaust most adults, a child almost literally would be unable to stay awake that long...let alone long enough to play doctors with an unwilling patient, in the basement on a freezing cold night.

Add in the staging and carryon, we know B was awake at the 911 call, so there's an entire 24 hour period that the kid is up and beating up his sister, all without any noise at all.

This to me is literally incredible.

:moo:

 

[blefuscu]

They would have been excited on Christmas Eve, so probably didn't sleep til late that night. Add in an early morning, which is normal for the Ramsey's anyway, and then a busy day, a party with rich heavy food, and travelling, and I can't see how an could still be awake at 1.30am. He's going to have to be absolutely zonked by that time. My own kids are usually flaked out by 8pm Christmas night and two of them are teenagers.

 

[ozazure]

Everyone's kids are different. Mine can be dragged pillar to post and stay awake from being hyped up. The oldest is a night owl and has never got up before 8:30am without being awoken and I lie waiting for her to get up Christmas morning.

I can rule Burke in based on what I know about a family with a child with aberrant behaviours and how the family behaves around that. What I see the mother do mentally to cope with that convinces me this is possible. Just because something is not discussed over the table doesn't mean it is not known. Siblings complain, or it is observed, parents intervene in varying ways, the behaviour persists, repeat, until the only way they cope with the behaviour is to minimise and mitigate it. They are not choosing between stopping the behaviour and letting it continue. They are choosing between failing at stopping it and coping with what happens - stopping it happening no longer feels possible. Learned helplessness, loss of self esteem, fear of judgement.

The untenable situation is made tenable through acclimatization and denial. Of course this is a far more common scenario when the abuser is another adult. Many adults end up allowing abuse to persist when they are unable to stop it in ways they can cope with - if they are unable or unwilling to blow up their world because of emotional, financial or social reasons, the abused child pays the price. Children are sacrificed like this all too frequently in many different scenarios.

I don't think any one piece of evidence, Patsy ringing 911, Burke's voice on the phone, their apparent changing tactics can be the reason a whole theory cannot stand. So Burke asked "what did you find?" ... maybe he is completely innocent, maybe he wants to know if he has been found out. I can't think of one thing for sure where you can know for sure what the player's motivation, what they expected the outcome to be, their knowledge at the time, from just observation. Was the note written as an excuse not to ring LE and Patsy then changed tacts, or was that the plan all along. Maybe "we have to hun" was about timing, not the call being made at all. Can't know. Can't rule a theory in or out on these pivot points.

 

[blefuscu]

I'm more prone to believing both young R children had been abused. Am I right in thinking they both had bed wetting/soiling problems?

 

[DeeDee249]

I am not suggesting sexual penetration. I am suggesting exploring, touching, etc. I think the sexual penetration element was part of the staging.



She could easily have swung at Burke and hit JonBenet with the Flashlight. Or, as crazy as Patsy was, she may have blamed JB for "seducing" Burke. Add to that impairment from drugs or alcohol or both and yes, I thikn it's entirely possible.

There was penetration that night and at least one previous occasion that had nothing to do with the staging. Erosion of the hymen happened over time, for one. There was also bruising on the labia and in the vagina. Dead people do not bruise. Nor do they bleed, so most of her injuries cannot be accounted for by staging. The coroner told police present at the autopsy that her injuries were consistent with digital penetration.