Was Burke involved?

[SapphireSteel]

Would a 9 year old finger result in permanent damage to the inside of a 6 year old vagina?

:dunno:

Personally, considering Burkes build - I doubt it. Breaking the hymen, maybe, but causing scarring? That's a large finger. Us girls are fairly elastic in there.

I believe tonight was the night someone in the house finally was going to get his "Christmas present" which was supposed to be full sex for the first time.

:sick:

 

[DeeDee249]

Would a 9 year old finger result in permanent damage to the inside of a 6 year old vagina?

:dunno:

Personally, considering Burkes build - I doubt it.

It is certainly possible. Some boys that age can have larger hands and feet. Some boys that age wear adult size shoes, for example. I do not think we can rule him out simply because of his age. JB also had another brother- one who attended college only a few minutes away and was regularly home on weekends. Seems to me JB was said to make many of her visits to the school nurse on a Monday...right after the weekend.

 

[dodie20]

IDK what experts say, because I've never been able to find anything, but IMO, PR's cleaning could have caused the damage-especially if the cleaning was very rough. The housekeeper did say there was a lot of screaming and tears involved. The coroner said the injuries were consistent with digital penetration, but whether or not he was aware of the cleanings, I don't know. I don't know if a douche wand would be comparable to digital, but I think it's possible that they would leave similar injuries. moo

 

[dodie20]

It is certainly possible. Some boys that age can have larger hands and feet. Some boys that age wear adult size shoes, for example. I do not think we can rule him out simply because of his age. JB also had another brother- one who attended college only a few minutes away and was regularly home on weekends. Seems to me JB was said to make many of her visits to the school nurse on a Monday...right after the weekend.

Quite a few people had easy access to JB and it doesn't look like any of them were investigated much for the prior abuse. LE should have started there, IMO, and it might have led to the murderer. About the Monday nurse visits...I don't know how often they attended pageants, but I'd think the majority of activity would be on the weekends. Maybe the stress of pageant scrubbings along with the corporal cleanings and whatever else they did, caused JB to fall literally sick. Did we ever hear why she went to the nurse? Was she feverish, for example, or was she just not feeling well?

 

[blefuscu]

IDK what experts say, because I've never been able to find anything, but IMO, PR's cleaning could have caused the damage-especially if the cleaning was very rough. The housekeeper did say there was a lot of screaming and tears involved. The coroner said the injuries were consistent with digital penetration, but whether or not he was aware of the cleanings, I don't know. I don't know if a douche wand would be comparable to digital, but I think it's possible that they would leave similar injuries. moo

I must have missed this. Patsy's cleaning?

 

[Venom]

I must have missed this. Patsy's cleaning?

PR's corporal cleaning theory.

 

[madeleine]

PR's corporal cleaning theory.

If PDI I still don't think those injuries were caused by cleaning...the large vaginal opening,the eroded hymen...dunno,hard for me to believe she inserted her finger or something else during the cleaning process...(that deep inside)...

 

[chlban]

It helps to remember that this was Christmas Night, those kids had been dragged from pillar to post all day, with maximum excitement levels.

Anyone who has little kids knows what a big day does to them.

They collapse, zonk out, fall over. They sleep, sometimes even where they sit, with a forkful of food halfway to their mouth.

Are we to believe that B had not quite had enough excitement for one day, waited until his parents were asleep, silently dragged his sleeping/protesting sister downstairs for an impromptu game of doctor at 1am then smacked her over the head, also silently????

Seriously?

:

OK, point taken. My bad.

I am just always trying to wrap my head around exactly what prompted the rage that I believe caused JB's death that night.
I am not married to any particular theory on that. I do lean very heavily to PDI though, and that it was done in a fit of rage, much as ST described his theory.

I lean heavily to her doing all the staging and John figuring it out, or at the very least figuring something was very, very wrong when he saw the RN.

I don't think Burke was involved in the death, but I have always had it in the back of my mind that the prior abuse could have been him and not John. One of the main reasons I have suspicions about Burke is that the parents did lie about him being awake. That could have been because they knew about or suspected the prior abuse and therefore just did not want him involved or interviewed. I mean if he slept through the whole night, what good would it do to interview him? It does seem they were shielding him for some reason, but I just don't think he killed her.

 

[SapphireSteel]

The psychology of helping one child to die to "save" another child (from what exactly? 2 years in a cushy clinic?) is just not logical.

Just as its not logical (to me at least) to have a man in the house with big fingers, an eroded vagina, yet to think a scrawny little 9 year old with fingers like cigarettes is responsible for these injuries based on absolutely zero evidence.

It's the same reason I don't like P for the sexual abuse. I believe John was prepping JB for her big night, being his Christmas Present. PR may well have been involved in controlling JB for his abuses, and punishing her in the basement if she didn't cooperate. :sick:

I think the bowl of pineapple was Patsy's snack - I think she went downstairs to eat when she left JB with John, it was part of her ritual to deny what was going on right above her head.

I'll just go down and fix you a nice bowl of pineapple JB, you'd like that wouldn't you? Now be nice to daddy and I'll be right back.

Ughhhhhh....

JMO and all.

:moo:

 

[blefuscu]

PR's corporal cleaning theory.

Her what now?

You mean she washed inside JonBenet? Is there proof of this? Did she punish her by doing this? How have I not heard of it?

 

[EllaMae]

The psychology of helping one child to die to "save" another child (from what exactly? 2 years in a cushy clinic?) is just not logical.

Just as its not logical (to me at least) to have a man in the house with big fingers, an eroded vagina, yet to think a scrawny little 9 year old with fingers like cigarettes is responsible for these injuries based on absolutely zero evidence.

It's the same reason I don't like P for the sexual abuse. I believe John was prepping JB for her big night, being his Christmas Present. PR may well have been involved in controlling JB for his abuses, and punishing her in the basement if she didn't cooperate. :sick:

I think the bowl of pineapple was Patsy's snack - I think she went downstairs to eat when she left JB with John, it was part of her ritual to deny what was going on right above her head.

I'll just go down and fix you a nice bowl of pineapple JB, you'd like that wouldn't you? Now be nice to daddy and I'll be right back.

Ughhhhhh....

JMO and all.

:moo:

I totally agree that Burke is an innocent bystander in the tragedy of JB's murder. It's cruel and inappropriate to continue to accuse him. He was also victimized by this case. He has suffered enough, and should be left alone. :banghead:


What I don't agree with is John as a perpetrator of sexual abuse . He has never been accused of being a sexual predator by anyone else, including his other daughters. We all know that a man his age would've had other victims before JB. Someone would've come forward during this case, if not before. The same goes for Patsy. People don't just start a deviant life-style suddenly in their 40's and 50's. There are always previous victims.

His children,his ex-wife and other relatives all gave statements that John Ramsey was NOT a child abuser ever, in any way.

IMHO...that theory is completely without merit.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I totally agree that Burke is an innocent bystander in the tragedy of JB's murder. It's cruel and inappropriate to continue to accuse him. He was also victimized by this case. He has suffered enough, and should be left alone. :banghead:


What I don't agree with is John as a perpetrator of sexual abuse . He has never been accused of being a sexual predator by anyone else, including his other daughters. We all know that a man his age would've had other victims before JB. Someone would've come forward during this case, if not before. The same goes for Patsy. People don't just start a deviant life-style suddenly in their 40's and 50's. There are always previous victims.

His children,his ex-wife and other relatives all gave statements that John Ramsey was NOT a child abuser ever, in any way.

IMHO...that theory is completely without merit.

Thanks for agreeing with me about B, not many do. For some reason BDI has really got legs, didn't one of these bloodsuckers use the BDI spin to sell his book?

Anyway, regarding JR, I would totally agree with you BUT.

People underestimate just how wealthy and powerful JR was (is). He was a very big wheel indeed, with a lot of money and the power that buys him. He had friends in very high places, and fancy lawyers too.

His older daughter is deceased, has been for years, so we don't know what she would have said as a grown woman, she didn't get a chance.

I do not find it a reach of the imagination at all for his other victims to remain silent. Children tend to defend their parents no matter what they do to them. It is also possible he drugged his victims and they never even knew. He used melatonin himself so we know he had possession of the means to do so.

I'm sorry but the lack of other victims does not clear him, in my mind. It just means, they haven't spoken out.

:cow:

Digital penetration on JB - bad enough to cause permanent scarring - who possessed the biggest fingers in that house?

:sick:

Statistics tell us it was JR, his lying and conniving tell me it was JR. He would've thrown PR under the bus if he could, the only reason he couldn't is that she knew what he did.

:moo:

 

[blefuscu]

Thanks for agreeing with me about B, not many do. For some reason BDI has really got legs, didn't one of these bloodsuckers use the BDI spin to sell his book?

Anyway, regarding JR, I would totally agree with you BUT.

People underestimate just how wealthy and powerful JR was (is). He was a very big wheel indeed, with a lot of money and the power that buys him. He had friends in very high places, and fancy lawyers too.

His older daughter is deceased, has been for years, so we don't know what she would have said as a grown woman, she didn't get a chance.

I do not find it a reach of the imagination at all for his other victims to remain silent. Children tend to defend their parents no matter what they do to them. It is also possible he drugged his victims and they never even knew. He used melatonin himself so we know he had possession of the means to do so.

I'm sorry but the lack of other victims does not clear him, in my mind. It just means, they haven't spoken out.

:cow:

Digital penetration on JB - bad enough to cause permanent scarring - who possessed the biggest fingers in that house?

:sick:

Statistics tell us it was JR, his lying and conniving tell me it was JR. He would've thrown PR under the bus if he could, the only reason he couldn't is that she knew what he did.

:moo:

Honestly don't think BDI, and have said all along my suspicion is with John.

 

[dodie20]

Honestly don't think BDI, and have said all along my suspicion is with John.

The thing about this family, is it doesn't have to necessarily be 1 or nothing. The housekeeper related a story of catching BR and JB in the bedroom, but that doesn't mean he caused the prior damage. In my opinion, they could have been 2 children acting out abuse. They learned this behavior somewhere. And then we have the housekeeper saying that the bathroom cleanings involved a lot of screaming and tears. And then there are the stories of wetting and soiling issues-signs of abuse. Once you start adding all of this to the stories of JB's trips to the school nurse, the many dr visits, her crying at the party, the unexplained 911, the reported mega JB intervention, you get a sense that this was a very dysfunctional family and JB was crying out for help. The feces smeared chocolates alone, is a huge red flag that something was seriously wrong in this house. I don't know much about sex abuse or child psychology, but IMO, these issues could be a reaction to abuse and a huge cry for help...not necessarily just one incident standing alone, but the totality of them together. IMO, this is case of a very abused little girl that escalated until it ended with her being murdered. moo

 

[SapphireSteel]

The thing about this family, is it doesn't have to necessarily be 1 or nothing. The housekeeper related a story of catching BR and JB in the bedroom, but that doesn't mean he caused the prior damage. In my opinion, they could have been 2 children acting out abuse. They learned this behavior somewhere. And then we have the housekeeper saying that the bathroom cleanings involved a lot of screaming and tears. And then there are the stories of wetting and soiling issues-signs of abuse. Once you start adding all of this to the stories of JB's trips to the school nurse, the many dr visits, her crying at the party, the unexplained 911, the reported mega JB intervention, you get a sense that this was a very dysfunctional family and JB was crying out for help. The feces smeared chocolates alone, is a huge red flag that something was seriously wrong in this house. I don't know much about sex abuse or child psychology, but IMO, these issues could be a reaction to abuse and a huge cry for help...not necessarily just one incident standing alone, but the totality of them together. IMO, this is case of a very abused little girl that escalated until it ended with her being murdered. moo

:goodpost:

ITA...both kids were victims, but JB's abuse was escalating.

Daddy wanted his Christmas Present.

Common sense seems to have vacated this case, that's what you get when you have expensive lawyers, PR, influence over politicians etc.

It's called spin.

Now folks actually contemplate a scrawny 9 year old as a murderer, when the scenario itself means that PR and JR lied and lied and staged.

Why would they? Would you, if your son accidentally hit your daughter?

Would you finish her off with a garrotte for the sake if the other child, who wasn't even of a legal age to be guilty?

Of course you wouldn't, no one would, that's just bizarre. It was an accident, and accidents happen, just ask any ER worker. Easy enough to worry about who did what to whom after they had rushed JB to hospital.

Common sense - there was zero to gain from staging JB apart from covering for each other.

Heck, they apparently didn't even like each other - if it was BDI, one of them would use the "accident" to vilify the other, file for divorce, claim full custody, child support, and added extras for child psychologists etc for poor traumatised Burke.

Heck, kids accidentally kill each other all the time in the US with guns...we don't see their parents garrotting the victim, staging scenes, etc...they call 911.

:cow:

 

[DeeDee249]

Quite a few people had easy access to JB and it doesn't look like any of them were investigated much for the prior abuse. LE should have started there, IMO, and it might have led to the murderer. About the Monday nurse visits...I don't know how often they attended pageants, but I'd think the majority of activity would be on the weekends. Maybe the stress of pageant scrubbings along with the corporal cleanings and whatever else they did, caused JB to fall literally sick. Did we ever hear why she went to the nurse? Was she feverish, for example, or was she just not feeling well?

Nothing has ever been released about the nature of her visits to the school nurse. The school refused to release them voluntarily and the DA refused to provide a warrant to allow police to subpoena them. Now...what does this tell me? Plenty. What school wouldn't want to do all it could to help solve the murder of one of its little students? Like JB's pediatrician, who said he would destroy JB's medical records rather than provide them to LE, you have to be very suspicious of what was in those records that they needed to hide.
If JB went to the school nurse on Mondays complaining of vaginal irritation, for example, that speaks volumes about her weekend "activities".

 

[dodie20]

:goodpost:

ITA...both kids were victims, but JB's abuse was escalating.

Daddy wanted his Christmas Present.

Common sense seems to have vacated this case, that's what you get when you have expensive lawyers, PR, influence over politicians etc.

It's called spin.

Now folks actually contemplate a scrawny 9 year old as a murderer, when the scenario itself means that PR and JR lied and lied and staged.

Why would they? Would you, if your son accidentally hit your daughter?

Would you finish her off with a garrotte for the sake if the other child, who wasn't even of a legal age to be guilty?

Of course you wouldn't, no one would, that's just bizarre. It was an accident, and accidents happen, just ask any ER worker. Easy enough to worry about who did what to whom after they had rushed JB to hospital.

Common sense - there was zero to gain from staging JB apart from covering for each other.

Heck, they apparently didn't even like each other - if it was BDI, one of them would use the "accident" to vilify the other, file for divorce, claim full custody, child support, and added extras for child psychologists etc for poor traumatised Burke.

Heck, kids accidentally kill each other all the time in the US with guns...we don't see their parents garrotting the victim, staging scenes, etc...they call 911.

:cow:

You're right about common sense, but here's why the normal 'automatically suspect the adult male', doesn't work here. Because PR wrote the note. And common sense says the person who wrote the note was the one who had the most to hide, the one with the motive to cover up in order to stay out of trouble. I can see a wife protecting her husband, but not to the point of writing a note for him....in her handwriting, her words. Protecting a husband is one thing, but not to the point of implicating herself with real physical evidence-and certainly not to the point where he is seen as innocent and she is seen as the murderer. I remember reading where one of PR's friends said that she fully expected to be arrested after the grand jury, even making jokes about stripes making her look fat. This doesn't sound like a woman covering for her husband or anybody else. All moo.

 

[DeeDee249]

Her what now?

You mean she washed inside JonBenet? Is there proof of this? Did she punish her by doing this? How have I not heard of it?

Some of Patsy's friends were reported to have claimed that Patsy used to douche JB when she soiled herself. A douche wand is about the width of a finger, though slightly longer. A pre-filled disposable douche bottle (like Summer's Eve) has a shorter attached "wand". Either COULD have caused internal damage, especially the injury that caused the bleeding, if it was done forcefully (as in a rage or fit of temper). There has been no official confirmation of this, however. The housekeeper, LHP, did tell police that Patsy used to regularly take JB into the bathroom when she soiled and she used to hear JB crying and screaming. LHP did not mention douching specifically, but she never entered the bathroom during these episodes to see what was going on.

 

[Venom]

Her what now?

You mean she washed inside JonBenet? Is there proof of this? Did she punish her by doing this? How have I not heard of it?

I'm not really sold on it. It's Steve Thomas' theory from his book.

 

[SapphireSteel]

You're right about common sense, but here's why the normal 'automatically suspect the adult male', doesn't work here. Because PR wrote the note. And common sense says the person who wrote the note was the one who had the most to hide, the one with the motive to cover up in order to stay out of trouble. I can see a wife protecting her husband, but not to the point of writing a note for him....in her handwriting, her words. Protecting a husband is one thing, but not to the point of implicating herself with real physical evidence-and certainly not to the point where he is seen as innocent and she is seen as the murderer. I remember reading where one of PR's friends said that she fully expected to be arrested after the grand jury, even making jokes about stripes making her look fat. This doesn't sound like a woman covering for her husband or anybody else. All moo.

So what's JR's motive for staging?

He didn't even like PR, why not call 911 and let them sort it out?