Was Burke involved?

[UKGuy]

Oh dear.

I just don't see protective parents in this mess, not anywhere.

They didn't protect JB, why would they protect B?

And protect him from what, exactly? He was 9...there is no death penalty for a 9 year old, they can't even be held legally responsible for what they do.

Tell me...how does the "lets protect Burke theory" actually play out? I'm going to try to imagine it.

Burke (and JB) both perform the next-to-impossible, meaning an 18.5 hour day (at least)of FULL ON excitement, presents, friends etc, to play a midnight game of doctors.

Let's say it happened in JB's bed.

If they were both lying down in bed, how did she get hit across the head? The wound is in the position of someone bringing a weapon down hard on the top of her head, unless B was perched on the headboard above her, he didn't belt her in the bed.

So he was making JB peform some oral act and she was kneeling...so why hit her? She was on her knees, doing as she was told.

When you hit a child over the head very hard, the first thing they do is scream.

JB screamed, woke her parents, who rushed into her bedroom and found Burke looking very very guilty?

Ok so then they lugged her (still alive) body down to the basement, all while forgetting to tell Burke to go to his room and DO NOT COME OUT until we come to get you?

Meanwhile JB is still breathing, they snap off a paintbrush and molest her? Tie her up? Write notes? Forget to brief Burke the one who's being covered for?

It just doesn't make sense...not logical...unless I'm missing something?

:cow:

SapphireSteel,
Of course you are. Thats why it does not make any sense, similarly for most IDI.

Sometimes murder and sexual assault do not progress along a logical path, this is why other theories, e.g. DocG, are so appealing, they offer a linear narrative. Which of course never took place.


.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Venom,
I have an unpublished RDI which includes the Paughs, and expands on JonBenet's role in the pageant circuit. Therein I use the reference to Burke's penis as an indication of a dysfunctional family.

i.e. is that flaccid or what?


.

Can someone please tell me again what was said about burkes penis? I'm just not finding it that bizarre of a comment going by what I've gleaned here.


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[SapphireSteel]

SapphireSteel,
Of course you are. Thats why it does not make any sense, similarly for most IDI.

Sometimes murder and sexual assault do not progress along a logical path, this is why other theories, e.g. DocG, are so appealing, they offer a linear narrative. Which of course never took place.


.

BDI is not just illogical to my mind, it is impossible. Literally. The Facts don't fit.

:dunno:

 

[Linda7NJ]

Linda7NJ,
What was all that about? Surely you can only forgive someone you know? Sounds a lot like PDI to me?


.

Why would JAR be so willing to forgive Patsy so soon after the murder? Wasn't he worried about Burke?

What exactly did that clergy person say he heard John say as he carried her upstairs. He didn't mean it, wrapped her up in a blanket?


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[Linda7NJ]

BDI is not just illogical to my mind, it is impossible. Literally. The Facts don't fit.

:dunno:

Well... If ya pay attention, I'm a tryin to make them fit! lol

Everyone knew the threat was over once JonBenet was dead! Burke was done molesting and murdering...she'd been his only target for a long time. they knew it was bad, but never thought it could escalate to murder... Just "a little bit molested" ....like Patsy. And Patsy thought she, herself, had turned out just fine....

Wouldn't John fear Patsy would/could kill Burke?

Wouldn't Patsy fear John if he killed her?

I still don't, after all these years, have a favorite theory. I go back and forth...








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[SapphireSteel]

Well... If ya pay attention, I'm a tryin to make them fit! lol

Everyone knew the threat was over once JonBenet was dead! Burke was done molesting and murdering...she'd been his only target for a long time. they knew it was bad, but never thought it could escalate to murder... Just "a little bit molested" ....like Patsy. And Patsy thought she, herself, had turned out just fine....

Wouldn't John fear Patsy would/could kill Burke?

Wouldn't Patsy fear John if he killed her?

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I have no idea what this crew would do to be honest...apart from my theory which is "look after No 1".

Can you describe to me exactly what you think happened?

How did JB get to the basement?

:waitasec:

 

[UKGuy]

BDI is not just illogical to my mind, it is impossible. Literally. The Facts don't fit.

:dunno:

SapphireSteel,
mmm, maybe you are not in full possession of the facts?

.

 

[UKGuy]

Why would JAR be so willing to forgive Patsy so soon after the murder? Wasn't he worried about Burke?

What exactly did that clergy person say he heard John say as he carried her upstairs. He didn't mean it, wrapped her up in a blanket?


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Linda7NJ,
I guess John was anticipating arrest and homicide charges, so he was putting his stuff on the table.

i.e. the intruder never meant it because she was wrapped in a blanket?

JAR: But whats to be forgiven, where is the beef?

.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Yes specifically BDI.

How did JB get to the basement in your theory? Humour me here...

 

[otg]

(snipped)

Another thought.

Ya know how the rope around her neck is very tight?

What if ...the head injury caused some swelling and the rope didn't start out embedded in her neck, her neck swelled around it ?

The ligature furrow was caused by a combination of its tightness and postmortem swelling in the neck around it. From http://medind.nic.in/jal/t05/i1/jalt05i1p10.pdf:

Occasionally, when the ligature is still in position when the body is examined, it may appear to be deeply embedded in the skin, sometimes almost out of sight, and on its removal a deep groove may be seen in the skin. This embedding may be accentuated by edema of the tissues, especially above the ligature. Presumably, some passive transudation of tissue fluid continues even after the circulation has stopped, and as such, edema may continue to develop to some extent even after death, accentuating the depth of the groove.

(I can find numerous other sources describing the occurence of postmortem swelling around the ligature. This was the first one I found in looking through my bookmarks.)

 

[SapphireSteel]

Yes specifically BDI.

How did JB get to the basement in your theory? Humour me here...

Anyone?

 

[Darlene733510]

I have been thinking about this case, and trying to figure out what happened. We know JB was afraid to go to the basement, but after they shared the pineapple, what if BR enticed her there to look for presents hidden there for his birthday, and probably some for JB too.
It was there that she was sexually molested, and hit on the head. When she didn't regain consciousness BR ran to get his parents. They would not know about the head injury, because BR would tell them she fell down the stairs. I believe BR left her in the area of the paint tray.
Instead of calling 911, they began the cover up. When they saw the blood on JB's thighs, they knew that "playing Doctor" went too far. BR injured his sister before, and who knows what was in his medical records? Perhaps the parents really did believe she fell down the stairs. If they called the ambulance there would be many questions, and perhaps an investigation. Even to this day BR may be the only one who knows what really happened.
PR and JR would have no idea of what the autopsy would show, and were probably as surprised about the head injury as everyone else.
When BR's voice was heard on the phone, we know he knew what was going on. I would bet that he had a very stern warning that the parents would take care of things, and he was not to say a word. He was probably told that he could be taken away, and locked up forever.
I think the parents wrapped her in the blanket, and moved her from the hallway to the wine cellar, after they redressed her and disposed of the size 6 panties and the pajama bottoms.
One thing sticks in my mind, and it is that the day after BR testified, the GJ came forth with their decision.

 

[otg]

I have been thinking about this case, and trying to figure out what happened. We know JB was afraid to go to the basement, but after they shared the pineapple, what if BR enticed her there to look for presents hidden there for his birthday, and probably some for JB too.
It was there that she was sexually molested, and hit on the head. When she didn't regain consciousness BR ran to get his parents. They would not know about the head injury, because BR would tell them she fell down the stairs. I believe BR left her in the area of the paint tray.
Instead of calling 911, they began the cover up. When they saw the blood on JB's thighs, they knew that "playing Doctor" went too far. BR injured his sister before, and who knows what was in his medical records? Perhaps the parents really did believe she fell down the stairs. If they called the ambulance there would be many questions, and perhaps an investigation. Even to this day BR may be the only one who knows what really happened.
PR and JR would have no idea of what the autopsy would show, and were probably as surprised about the head injury as everyone else.
When BR's voice was heard on the phone, we know he knew what was going on. I would bet that he had a very stern warning that the parents would take care of things, and he was not to say a word. He was probably told that he could be taken away, and locked up forever.
I think the parents wrapped her in the blanket, and moved her from the hallway to the wine cellar, after they redressed her and disposed of the size 6 panties and the pajama bottoms.
One thing sticks in my mind, and it is that the day after BR testified, the GJ came forth with their decision.

Very well thought out scenario IMO, Darlene, and there's not much I would disagree with in what you suggest. And along that line, imagine that if BR were told to just stay out of the way and let Mom and Dad take care of everything so they don't "take you away", he wouldn't really know what the exact plan was. I mean, can you imagine JR explaining to BR every detail of what they were doing to protect him? So he keeps quiet during the 911 call, Patsy hangs it up and starts her invocation to Jesus, and BR still has this lingering question about what he heard her say on the phone about some kind of a "ransom note". So is it not unexpected for him to ask, "What did you find?" To which JR barks, "We're not speaking to you." And then BR's response: "But what DID you find?"

 

[SapphireSteel]

I have been thinking about this case, and trying to figure out what happened. We know JB was afraid to go to the basement, but after they shared the pineapple, what if BR enticed her there to look for presents hidden there for his birthday, and probably some for JB too.
It was there that she was sexually molested, and hit on the head. When she didn't regain consciousness BR ran to get his parents. They would not know about the head injury, because BR would tell them she fell down the stairs. I believe BR left her in the area of the paint tray.
Instead of calling 911, they began the cover up. When they saw the blood on JB's thighs, they knew that "playing Doctor" went too far. BR injured his sister before, and who knows what was in his medical records? Perhaps the parents really did believe she fell down the stairs. If they called the ambulance there would be many questions, and perhaps an investigation. Even to this day BR may be the only one who knows what really happened.
PR and JR would have no idea of what the autopsy would show, and were probably as surprised about the head injury as everyone else.
When BR's voice was heard on the phone, we know he knew what was going on. I would bet that he had a very stern warning that the parents would take care of things, and he was not to say a word. He was probably told that he could be taken away, and locked up forever.
I think the parents wrapped her in the blanket, and moved her from the hallway to the wine cellar, after they redressed her and disposed of the size 6 panties and the pajama bottoms.
One thing sticks in my mind, and it is that the day after BR testified, the GJ came forth with their decision.

The decision to indict J and P, not Burke, though, in my opinion that says it all.

:seeya:

So in this theory, the parents are called down to an "accident" - and proceed to NOT call 911? Despite the fact JB is actually still alive? They strangle her and stage her instead?

As far as B being tried, accused and locked up - B may not have known if that could happen or not, but the Ramseys with their fancy lawyer friends knew pretty much everything could be covered up.

Why didn't they call JB's own doctor? He was called once she was dead, for some unfathomable reason. We know he was pretty much their paid monkey so he could've helped with any sort of "no comment" which was all that was needed to cover up a "murder" that wasn't really a murder anyway (until they strangled JB).

sorry it doesn't make sense. For J and P to have gone to these steps to protect Burke, makes them totally irrational let alone criminal.

If they're totally irrational and criminal, they're in the frame for being the murderers/attackers too....KWIM? They are the ones with the aberrant psychology, it follows they are only covering up for themselves.

I actually believe they thought of making B the scapegoat, and a lot of the "Burke is strange" information came from their own team.

:sick:

 

[Darlene733510]

Hi there otg - I am thinking that once the parents came downstairs they wouldn't let BR go to the basement. Perhaps he thought the parents would revive JBR, and all would be fine.
I think that is why he asked, "what did you find?" He really had no idea that his hatred for his sister, which caused him to bash her in the head, would result in her death. All was OK. when he hit her in the face with the golf club, so he may have thought she would be revived by the parents. When JR said, "we are not talking to you, " I bet that previously BR was given the tongue lashing of his life.

I do believe the parents would cover up for BR. They probably knew he could not be prosecuted, so they covered up, and that was done to protect BR. He was never a scapegoat, because he was well protected from prosecution. Above all, the image of the perfect family had to be portrayed, and all the drama began.

 

[gramcracker]

sources that leaked the 911 enhancement said this is what was heard:

BR: Please, what do I do?
JR (angrily) We are not speaking to you
PR: Help me, Jesus, help me, Jesus
BR: What did you find?

 

[Linda7NJ]

Anyone?

Hmmmm... Ok.,,

It began in JonBenet's bedroom ?...remember rope fibers were found in her bed..

Patsy carried her downstairs...

Maybe he lured her downstairs telling her Santa left more presents down there? And it was a secret.




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[questfortrue]

My thoughts are more along the lines of covering up old abuse.

Or, attempting to cover it up.

JB died unexpectedly, the staging was applied to hide what happened.

Ditto the paintbrush - let's hide what happened.

:sick:

:moo:

As our famed KK used to say, the problem is that the behavioral evidence can be interpreted in different ways. And sometimes (frequently?) we may be erring in assumptions. E.g., my assumption is that JB had one molester; but there may have been two males both culpable at different times.

While I’m kind of a skeptic in the corporal cleansing theory, and nothing surprises me anymore, I find the insertion of a paintbrush , an illogical disguise for douching . I do think the paintbrush could have been anger, though. If the corporal cleansing was what caused “chronic abuse”, could be, but again, imo, it doesn’t jive with JB’s behavioral signs. Everyone’s heard about these behavioral instances, so I won’t repeat them. But one has to think that either JB and BR had continued to play doctor over preceding weeks or months or JB was being sexually “groomed.” Or both? Just when I think I’ve come to a rational view: Siblings sexually abuse 5 times more frequently than adults abuse, I read that 30% of those cases had adults who had initially abused the younger child. Further, it was shocking to me to hear that Marilyn VanDerbur Atler actually indicated something to the effect that when she looked at JR, she saw her father (who sexually abused her for 13 years.) Irrelevant, but I pay attention to visceral reactions by people who have suffered this in their families. JMHO.

Another dissonant thought is this: When PR was on TV she claimed “We believe there are two people who know who did this”, the one who did it and the one that person confided in. JR’s look at his wife said it all as far as his dismay with her comment. This could mean nothing, since they made up so much stuff, but JR’s reaction and look was one of “Shut up, fool”. The statement is one which is puzzling, unless she was indicating that only she and BR knew about it. Yet, JR’s look said that he knew this was a dangerous comment, so my assumption is that he also knew who did this. Since I believe PR wrote the note, I’m left with the combination of PR and JR or PR ad BR. I’m aware this could mean nothing. It’s just how it struck me. I’m RDI but frequently a fence straddler, just trying to reason my way through this, the incomprehensible.

 

[Linda7NJ]

respectfully sniped

Another dissonant thought is this: When PR was on TV she claimed “We believe there are two people who know who did this”, the one who did it and the one that person confided in. JR’s look at his wife said it all as far as his dismay with her comment. This could mean nothing, since they made up so much stuff, but JR’s reaction and look was one of “Shut up, fool”. The statement is one which is puzzling, unless she was indicating that only she and BR knew about it. Yet, JR’s look said that he knew this was a dangerous comment, so my assumption is that he also knew who did this. Since I believe PR wrote the note, I’m left with the combination of PR and JR or PR ad BR. I’m aware this could mean nothing. It’s just how it struck me. I’m RDI but frequently a fence straddler, just trying to reason my way through this, the incomprehensible.

I will never forget the look John gave her...as long as I live.... Sent chills through me at the time!

I agree 100% ... All of my combinations also must include Patsy.

I've also have a theory where she's totally solo.






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[tweezybird]

Could someone post a link to that interview/comment? I've looked and can't find it. The one where Patsy says only two people know who did it.
Thanks,
Terri