Was Burke involved?

[Linda7NJ]

IA with everyone’s post about the amount of stress/trauma this family faced in the early 90s.



This following slight clarification does not diminish your point that no family would be operating at optimum under these conditions. Beth died January 8, 1992. One and ½ years later PR was diagnosed with cancer early July of 1993; JB was 2 and 11 months, not quite 3, BR was 6 ½.



Going further, my brother who lost his oldest daughter to a health crisis, has told me he does not believe he will ever get over it, and the whole family suffers from this loss. The children witnessing the grief of their father, and the battle PR faced (the threat of death) would be deeply affected, and only God, perhaps people closest to the family, and the Rs doctors would know how this family dealt with it. moo

IMO the Ramsey family doctor only knows what the Ramsey's told him.


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[Mama2JML]

IA with everyone’s post about the amount of stress/trauma this family faced in the early 90s.

This following slight clarification does not diminish your point that no family would be operating at optimum under these conditions. Beth died January 8, 1992. One and ½ years later PR was diagnosed with cancer early July of 1993; JB was 2 and 11 months, not quite 3, BR was 6 ½.

Going further, my brother who lost his oldest daughter to a health crisis, has told me he does not believe he will ever get over it, and the whole family suffers from this loss. The children witnessing the grief of their father, and the battle PR faced (the threat of death) would be deeply affected, and only God, perhaps people closest to the family, and the Rs doctors would know how this family dealt with it. moo

Thank you for the clarification. So, JonBenet was almost 3 yo, and Burke was ~6.5 yo.

Thank you, as well, for sharing a bit of your personal experience. I have not experienced the death of a child, and God-willing, my most ultimate desire is for my children to outlive me...

I've seen heart-break, but nothing like you've witnessed as an immediate family member. ...thank God.

I have seen my baby brother broken-hearted. Although, the comparison I'm about to make is incredibly inadequate, it's the closest association I can make. ...again, thank God.

He was in his early 20s, a division 1 athlete with professional athlete potential written all over his scouting reports. He was away @ school, and the young lady he thought he'd marry, abruptly ended their relationship that first semester. Four years, high school sweethearts, and suddenly thousands of miles apart; She began dating another semi well-known athlete in the area. He wasn't offered a scholarship to play baseball in the SEC, so he stuck around. As it turned out, she didn't feel like waiting @ home alone.

The devastation that overcame my little brother might have changed his entire path. Who knows where he'd be now, had it worked out? He had some big dreams & big shoes that might have taken him there...

It's been ~4 years and he's finally back on track, but goodness, I pulled a few all nighters talking to him on the phone because I feared I may not hear his voice again if I hung up...

It seems ridiculous now, but it was SO real. I know, it's hardly an appropriate comparison to that which your brother (& YOU) have experienced. My point is:

Seeing such sadness, hopelessness, defeat, & fear of the sudden unknown, in the eyes of the ones we love most, is disparaging, heart-wrenching...

I've cried on numerous occasions for my brother. ...& for my mother who couldn't "make it all better". ...& for my father who couldn't "fix it" for his wife, nor undo it for his little boy, etc.

Thus, Beth's death & Patsy's cancer (regardless of the family's imperfections/level of dysfunction) assuredly affected those children in an immeasurable capacity. Does this lend credence to RDI/IDI theories? I don't tend to go there as I do believe what doesn't kill us makes us stronger, but there's a lot of gray area in between...

Thanks, again, for your heart-felt post. You have my condolences, for the loss of your niece. :heartbeat:

 

[Frigga]

I agree with the statement BBM. JonBenet was ~4 yo & Burke ~7 yo when Mrs. Ramsey was diagnosed. Her battle with cancer began not long after Beth Ramsey's sudden death. It would be unrealistic to expect a family, as a unit, to function at one's preconceived opinion of "optimal". Likewise, it would be negligent to assume the children would not be affected by these events and the emotional, physical, etc. toll these experiences had/has on their parents.

If this was the case then why were the children not put in therapy to help them deal with this- given some sort of outlet? The feces along with the regression were big red flags.

Why would the wealthy, sophisticated and intelligent Ramsey's not seek help for their beloved children? Why does Dr Le Beuoff (sp?) show up on the scene the morning after the crime and then keep and threaten to destroy JB's medical records? That doesn't make sense to me.

Why wouldn't this pediatrician- who had seen JB MANY TIMES during this stressful period of time of Patsy's illness (and the death of Beth) not recommend some sort of help or therapy for the children of his good friends the Ramsey's? I would think that would be the first thing he would have done if all of these bed wetting, feces smearing and regressive behaviors were occurring with the children he was close to and treating? Why are JB medical records secret if there was nothing to hide? It doesn't add up.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

If this was the case then why were the children not put in therapy to help them deal with this- given some sort of outlet? The feces along with the regression were big red flags.

Why would the wealthy, sophisticated and intelligent Ramsey's not seek help for their beloved children? Why does Dr Le Beuoff (sp?) show up on the scene the morning after the crime and then keep and threaten to destroy JB's medical records? That doesn't make sense to me.

Why wouldn't this pediatrician- who had seen JB MANY TIMES during this stressful period of time of Patsy's illness (and the death of Beth) not recommend some sort of help or therapy for the children of his good friends the Ramsey's? I would think that would be the first thing he would have done if all of these bed wetting, feces smearing and regressive behaviors were occurring with the children he was close to and treating? Why are JB medical records secret if there was nothing to hide? It doesn't add up.

I don't think this has anything to do with wealth at all. Some people believe they can love their children through anything. They don't always see how bad things are. I read all the time where parents think they can manage things on their own. I don't know that they did not have any therapy.

The feces thing bothers me because I can not get clear answers on how much was found and by whom and the evidence that it is real..

 

[Mama2JML]

If this was the case then why were the children not put in therapy to help them deal with this- given some sort of outlet? The feces along with the regression were big red flags.

Regression is not atypical. Good things, like a job promotion or the birth of a new baby, can bring about regression. Smearing of "poop" is not so abnormal, nor indicative of abuse, either.

Why would the wealthy, sophisticated and intelligent Ramsey's not seek help for their beloved children? Why does Dr Le Beuoff (sp?) show up on the scene the morning after the crime?

I don't know. Put yourself in his shoes, uninhibited by your convictions, maybe?... :dunno:

...and then keep and threaten to destroy JB's medical records? That doesn't make sense to me.

:rumor: :denied: :sigh:

Why wouldn't this pediatrician- who had seen JB MANY TIMES during this stressful period of time of Patsy's illness (and the death of Beth) not recommend some sort of help or therapy for the children of his good friends the Ramsey's? I would think that would be the first thing he would have done if all of these bed wetting, feces smearing and regressive behaviors were occurring with the children he was close to and treating?

B&UBM

IF you would elaborate with proper sources, I might be able to answer with a hypothetical. As it stands, however, what I've read above (BBM) is speculative, at best, and obscure on your part.

Why are JB medical records secret if there was nothing to hide? It doesn't add up.

:rumor: :denied: :sigh:

 

[Frigga]

Regression is not atypical. Good things, like a job promotion or the birth of a new baby, can bring about regression. Smearing of "poop" is not so abnormal, nor indicative of abuse, either.

I don't know. Put yourself in his shoes, uninhibited by your convictions, maybe?... :dunno:

:rumor: :denied: :sigh:

B&UBM

IF you would elaborate with proper sources, I might be able to answer with a hypothetical. As it stands, however, what I've read above (BBM) is speculative, at best, and obscure on your part.

:rumor: :denied: :sigh:

Oh, I didn't realize that the discussion I came in on was talking about "good things" that were happening to this family at the time?

Was someone promoted at the time? There certainly wasn't a new baby in the house! I was under the impression Patsy's cancer was being discussed and that Patsy's cancer, as well as the death of Beth, were being discussed as a possible traumatic source for JB's bedwetting, regressive behaviors, and Burke's 'poop' smearing.

I am not going running for links- no one else was doing that here, with the discussion. I was adding my thoughts on the subject.

Are you saying that these things weren't occurring in the Ramsey household? That JB didn't wet the bed? That Burke hadn't smeared feces on a wall while his mother was sick? Are you requesting links for the feces smeared on the box of chocolates?

All of the smilies and stamps in the world don't mean that I cannot join this discussion, ask questions or offer opinions. Quite frankly I find that kind of rude and off putting. I was posting my thoughts and opinions on a topic that is widely discussed in this case.

I'll go back to reading now.

 

[Venom]

This is the first thread I clicked on today. And from reading the last few posts in it it has gone to <snip>. :maddening:
Exactly what was discussed earlier started happening.
Apparently making a statement with an IF in it means the topic can't be talked about without a pro-R approved source confirming it.
Oh the redundancy.

 

[SapphireSteel]

That saying is wrong.

It should be "what doesn't kill you makes you STRANGER" which appears true for PR at least.

This family has just had too much bad luck, statistically.

What are the odds of having TWO daughters die young, in violent avoidable ways when you're white, wealthy and not in a war zone?

Next to zero.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

That saying is wrong.

It should be "what doesn't kill you makes you STRANGER" which appears true for PR at least.

This family has just had too much bad luck, statistically.

What are the odds of having TWO daughters die young, in violent avoidable ways when you're white, wealthy and not in a war zone?

Next to zero.

Car accidents are not out of the norm, nor avoidable. I don't also see murder as avoidable and Patsy died of Cancer. So there is a lot of death but only one is out of the norm IMO.

 

[Carmelita]

First of all thank you to all of those that welcomed me.

I agree with your first post. Having said that, it doesn't do a thing IMO to discount burke's possible involvement. It actually may help explain his jealousy, soiling, and the documented detachment witnessed by those in contact with him after his sister died.

I don’t think there is anything psychologically suspect about a 9 year old boy detaching from friends when his half-sister died traumatically, his mother was in the fight of her life against cancer, his little sister was brutally murdered and his entire world was turned upside down, including the loss of his home which is every family’s sanctuary. JMO



Why would the wealthy, sophisticated and intelligent Ramsey's not seek help for their beloved children? Why does Dr Le Beuoff (sp?) show up on the scene the morning after the crime and then keep and threaten to destroy JB's medical records? That doesn't make sense to me.

I would be interested in seeing documentation that Dr. LeBeuoff threatened to destroy medical records I do not believe that to be a fact in evidence. As to not turning the records over that was within the law and perhaps he saw the witch hunt brewing. The long and short of it is that JonBenet’s records were turned over and Dr. LeBeuoff has repeatedly said emphatically that JonBenét was not molested and that her disposition was not that of a molested child.

Did he recommend counseling for the children because of Beth’s death, Patsy’s illness and the stress on the family? I don’t know. What we do know is that Patsy, John and both children had a wide berth of friends, that they were well liked in their community and that the children had many healthy relationships with their peers and adults in their lives, so perhaps Patsy and John felt that they were handling the situation well enough and that some peculiar behavior should be expected under the circumstance.

Not everyone going through a crisis seeks out professional counseling, we do know that Patsy sought refuge in her church and her pastor and perhaps she found counsel for her children through that avenue. We can’t know that which we do not know, nor can we fill in the gaps to best fit our scenario of what we believe happened, because then we are no longer seeking the truth but simply being led by an agenda either consciously or subconsciously. I think the facts and evidence should speak louder than rumors, internet gossip and "just knowing."

 

[Carmelita]

Questfrotune,

My condolences on the loss of your niece and I agree that one does not get over it one lives through it.

 

[Mama2JML]

That saying is wrong.

It should be "what doesn't kill you makes you STRANGER" which appears true for PR at least.

This family has just had too much bad luck, statistically.

What are the odds of having TWO daughters die young, in violent avoidable ways when you're white, wealthy and not in a war zone?

Next to zero.

Hmmm, not sure...

Rare occurrences, although rare, occur. ...rarely.

 

[gramcracker]

IMO, re labels: anyone who isn't labeling every single day is sleepwalking through life. labels are the result of using judgment, experience, common sense and intuition. labels are both positive and negative and so is human interaction. labels are the result of how we evaluate and express our perceptions of the human experience. don't be afraid to be labeled as a "labeler"

re the value of intuition: it exists for a reason, although using it is often maligned. in the context of perceiving/reacting to danger, Gavin de Becker says that humans are the only animals who routinely deny their intuition. because they hesitate to be labeled "a snob" or "prejudiced" they interact with whichever category of creep who assaults/robs/kidnaps/kills them. they step closer to the vehicle to help direct someone who is "lost" or they get on the elevator when their intuition is saying "no." non-human animals don't worry about the opinion of a predator approaching them: when they catch sight or scent, they flee

LEOs have finely honed intuitive skills; with some it is innate and with others it is a result of experience. LEOs are some of the best assessors of human behavior on the planet

the FBI said "you will find her body" and "look to the parents"

 

[Frigga]

Great post gramcracker and very true. I love Gavin Debecker and think The Gift Of Fear should be required reading to graduate High School!

 

[bettybaby00]

IMO, re labels: anyone who isn't labeling every single day is sleepwalking through life. labels are the result of using judgment, experience, common sense and intuition. labels are both positive and negative and so is human interaction. labels are the result of how we evaluate and express our perceptions of the human experience. don't be afraid to be labeled as a "labeler"

re the value of intuition: it exists for a reason, although using it is often maligned. in the context of perceiving/reacting to danger, Gavin de Becker says that humans are the only animals who routinely deny their intuition. because they hesitate to be labeled "a snob" or "prejudiced" they interact with whichever category of creep who assaults/robs/kidnaps/kills them. they step closer to the vehicle to help direct someone who is "lost" or they get on the elevator when their intuition is saying "no." non-human animals don't worry about the opinion of a predator approaching them: when they catch sight or scent, they flee

LEOs have finely honed intuitive skills; with some it is innate and with others it is a result of experience. LEOs are some of the best assessors of human behavior on the planet

the FBI said "you will find her body" and "look to the parents"

:loveyou::loveyou::loveyou:

I was actually ranting in my head......and once again you hit the nail on the head.!!!!

 

[Mama2JML]

BBM

First of all thank you to all of those that welcomed me.

I agree with your first post. Having said that, it doesn't do a thing IMO to discount burke's possible involvement. It actually may help explain his jealousy, soiling, and the documented detachment witnessed by those in contact with him after his sister died.

I don&#8217;t think there is anything psychologically suspect about a 9 year old boy detaching from friends when his half-sister died traumatically, his mother was in the fight of her life against cancer, his little sister was brutally murdered and his entire world was turned upside down, including the loss of his home which is every family&#8217;s sanctuary. JMO

Why would the wealthy, sophisticated and intelligent Ramsey's not seek help for their beloved children? Why does Dr Le Beuoff (sp?) show up on the scene the morning after the crime and then keep and threaten to destroy JB's medical records? That doesn't make sense to me.

I would be interested in seeing documentation that Dr. LeBeuoff threatened to destroy medical records I do not believe that to be a fact in evidence. As to not turning the records over that was within the law and perhaps he saw the witch hunt brewing. The long and short of it is that JonBenet&#8217;s records were turned over and Dr. LeBeuoff has repeatedly said emphatically that JonBenét was not molested and that her disposition was not that of a molested child.

Did he recommend counseling for the children because of Beth&#8217;s death, Patsy&#8217;s illness and the stress on the family? I don&#8217;t know. What we do know is that Patsy, John and both children had a wide berth of friends, that they were well liked in their community and that the children had many healthy relationships with their peers and adults in their lives, so perhaps Patsy and John felt that they were handling the situation well enough and that some peculiar behavior should be expected under the circumstance.

Not everyone going through a crisis seeks out professional counseling, we do know that Patsy sought refuge in her church and her pastor and perhaps she found counsel for her children through that avenue. We can&#8217;t know that which we do not know, nor can we fill in the gaps to best fit our scenario of what we believe happened, because then we are no longer seeking the truth but simply being led by an agenda either consciously or subconsciously. I think the facts and evidence should speak louder than rumors, internet gossip and "just knowing."

:goodpost:

Agreed. Excellent post, Carmelita. :clap:

 

[Mama2JML]

IMO, re labels: anyone who isn't labeling every single day is sleepwalking through life. labels are the result of using judgment, experience, common sense and intuition. labels are both positive and negative and so is human interaction. labels are the result of how we evaluate and express our perceptions of the human experience. don't be afraid to be labeled as a "labeler"

re the value of intuition: it exists for a reason, although using it is often maligned. in the context of perceiving/reacting to danger, Gavin de Becker says that humans are the only animals who routinely deny their intuition. because they hesitate to be labeled "a snob" or "prejudiced" they interact with whichever category of creep who assaults/robs/kidnaps/kills them. they step closer to the vehicle to help direct someone who is "lost" or they get on the elevator when their intuition is saying "no." non-human animals don't worry about the opinion of a predator approaching them: when they catch sight or scent, they flee

LEOs have finely honed intuitive skills; with some it is innate and with others it is a result of experience. LEOs are some of the best assessors of human behavior on the planet

the FBI said "you will find her body" and "look to the parents"

Some labels suffice, some do not. ...and, you neglected to acknowledge the equally influential human mechanisms of ignorance, hate, ego, etc.

 

[gramcracker]

it never occurred to me that the FBI was behaving in a hateful, ignorant or egotistical manner when they assessed this case for BPD. I'll have to chew on that for awhile

 

[Nom de plume]

First of all thank you to all of those that welcomed me.

I agree with your first post. Having said that, it doesn't do a thing IMO to discount burke's possible involvement. It actually may help explain his jealousy, soiling, and the documented detachment witnessed by those in contact with him after his sister died.

I don’t think there is anything psychologically suspect about a 9 year old boy detaching from friends when his half-sister died traumatically, his mother was in the fight of her life against cancer, his little sister was brutally murdered and his entire world was turned upside down, including the loss of his home which is every family’s sanctuary. JMO



Why would the wealthy, sophisticated and intelligent Ramsey's not seek help for their beloved children? Why does Dr Le Beuoff (sp?) show up on the scene the morning after the crime and then keep and threaten to destroy JB's medical records? That doesn't make sense to me.

I would be interested in seeing documentation that Dr. LeBeuoff threatened to destroy medical records I do not believe that to be a fact in evidence. As to not turning the records over that was within the law and perhaps he saw the witch hunt brewing. The long and short of it is that JonBenet’s records were turned over and Dr. LeBeuoff has repeatedly said emphatically that JonBenét was not molested and that her disposition was not that of a molested child.

Did he recommend counseling for the children because of Beth’s death, Patsy’s illness and the stress on the family? I don’t know. What we do know is that Patsy, John and both children had a wide berth of friends, that they were well liked in their community and that the children had many healthy relationships with their peers and adults in their lives, so perhaps Patsy and John felt that they were handling the situation well enough and that some peculiar behavior should be expected under the circumstance.

Not everyone going through a crisis seeks out professional counseling, we do know that Patsy sought refuge in her church and her pastor and perhaps she found counsel for her children through that avenue. We can’t know that which we do not know, nor can we fill in the gaps to best fit our scenario of what we believe happened, because then we are no longer seeking the truth but simply being led by an agenda either consciously or subconsciously. I think the facts and evidence should speak louder than rumors, internet gossip and "just knowing."

BBM
BR & JB were not half siblings. They had the same mother & father.

JB's records were never turned over. Dr. Bueff provided a list of times she was seen & the purpose of the visit, but the entire record was never provided. (TTBOMK)

 

[bettybaby00]

BBM
BR & JB were not half siblings. They had the same mother & father.

JB's records were never turned over. Dr. Bueff provided a list of times she was seen & the purpose of the visit, but the entire record was never provided. (TTBOMK)

Nor were Burke's...just another concession afforded them by the DA.

Why, why, why was this allowed to happen? What were they hiding?

If the Rs didn't want to turn over the records--for whatever reason--then a court order should have been obtained to get the records. Standard procedure. Then their very experienced, highly paid lawyers could earn their keep and argue before the judge why those records were not relative to the case. and the judge would rule on whether or not it was relavent. Instead, their lawyers suggest that they "were entitled to an island of privacy."

June 1998...interview with LS, the DA, the Rs investigators:

The following is an excerpt from that interview:

&#8220;I have a real problem with certain kinds of medical records. These people are entitled to an island of privacy to try to recover what they&#8217;ve been through.&#8221; &#8220;I think you will get virtually everything you&#8217;ve described with the possible exception of personal medical records that I think John and Patsy are at least entitled to make a reasonable decision on&#8230;.&#8221; &#8220;I&#8217;ve already discussed these matters with Hoffstrom and he knows how we operate.&#8221;

Kolar, A. James (2012-06-14). Foreign Faction: Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet? (Kindle Locations 3266-3271). Ventus Publishing, llc. Kindle Edition.

ENTITLED!!!!!???????

what exactly entitles them to withhold information during the investigation into the brutal murder of their daughter???

VIRTUALLY EVERYTHING????!!

why not everything????!!!!!!

HOW WE OPERATE?????!!!!

What does that even mean????