Was Burke involved?

[Rashi'sDaughter]

Great posts, everyone! I have often wondered about the gruesome twosome of DS and BR, and whether they molested JBR together. One possible scenario is that JB screamed out in pain and fear on the night of the 25th and one of the boys bashed her over the head to shut her up, maybe while the other one held her still. Poor, poor Jonbenet. :furious:
Can anyone tell me if LE ever interviewed DS? My only concern with this scenario is lack of evidence... Surely we'd have heard if there was Stein DNA at the crime scene??
My own opinion only.:moo:

 

[eileenhawkeye]

I was in communication with a National Enquirer reporter, Don Gentile I believe his name was. He told me that the PR & JR were communicating with each other by sticky notes, and he knew this because the reporters would go through the trash (this is while they were staying with the Stines) He was sure PR was going to be arrested. I think they really covered this case very well. No sensationalism needed to be made up in this case, the R's created it all.

The tabloids wrote almost 300 articles about this case in the first three years. I know they did a lot of digging, but there was such a demand for there to be something about this case every week, that publishing BS may have been an option sometimes. It might be true; It might not be.

What do you mean by: "No sensationalism needed to be made up in this case, the R's created it all"? I'm not a fan of the Ramseys, but I don't see how the media didn't sensationalize the case. The media creates sensationalism in every case they cover.

 

[ahoyhoy]

:rocker:Ahoyhoy

:takeoff: You've put together some thoughts based on known facts that help us look at case aspects that take us in a direction that is different than some of us have considered lately. Maybe we should think more about this?

Wow, midwest mama, thanks so much. I've followed other 'unsolved' cases for years (Lizzie Borden is an old favorite, along w/BTK,Unibomber,&Green River, before those were solved), but JonBenet is probably the one that really keeps me thinking, all the time. keeps me going back into the evidence & the threads.

The problem with all this now is that every theory depends upon how much staging you think was involved, and which is relevant. So the crime itself could range from relatively innocent----a total accident with beaucoup staging ('simply' to cover for chronic molestation by someone, or 'protect the remaining family'--with the molestation unknown at the time to the R's)---
OR the crime could have been a slow, sadistic rape & 'erotic asphyxiation' of a child already half-dead from a bash to the head. With so much in between. All the evidence can be pieced together into 100 different kinds of monster-perps, but I've been re-piecing since this Kolar stuff came out, and try to pull back into simpler theories that are more likely.

I'm all the way that a RDI, obviously. That's JMO, of course, because other theories help us all think.

But thanks for the kind words, midwest mama. I am so shy about posting (because I can't keep up with ALL the evidence y'all have), that I often can't come back and check for DAYS, afraid I've embarrassed myself. Thanks again--and I'm also Midwestern, btw. :seeya:

 

[DeeDee249]

Great posts, everyone! I have often wondered about the gruesome twosome of DS and BR, and whether they molested JBR together. One possible scenario is that JB screamed out in pain and fear on the night of the 25th and one of the boys bashed her over the head to shut her up, maybe while the other one held her still. Poor, poor Jonbenet. :furious:
Can anyone tell me if LE ever interviewed DS? My only concern with this scenario is lack of evidence... Surely we'd have heard if there was Stein DNA at the crime scene??
My own opinion only.:moo:

I would like to think police interviewed DS, but as a minor he'd have needed parental permission and/or presence. I can't imagine they'd allow police to talk yo him, and AH wasn't granting any warrants. But remember even if they DID talk to him or had suspicions about his involvement, they cold not proceed further because it also involved BR, who was under 10. The interview with DSm if they happened at all, would be another dead end.

 

[DeeDee249]

But thanks for the kind words, midwest mama. I am so shy about posting (because I can't keep up with ALL the evidence y'all have), that I often can't come back and check for DAYS, afraid I've embarrassed myself. Thanks again--and I'm also Midwestern, btw. :seeya:

Please don't be shy about posting and don't feel embarrassed. We all had to start somewhere and learned as we went along. It took me almost 2 years of reading (here, FFJ and acandyrose) before I felt well-informed enough to join and actually start posting. I read several books, too. And I often recommend a 2-hour "Crash course" for people who don't have time to do extensive research. Rent the DVD "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town" by Lawrence Schiller, who wrote a book of the same title, which is also an excellent source for resource material and fairly objective, too. James Kolar's book is excellent and gives some previously unknown insight. ST's book is a good one, too. But read a little source material each day- 20 minutes or so, and in no time you'll feel very informed. Try here http://www.acandyrose.com
and be sure to scroll down to the "JonBenet Archives" . There are a lot of other cold cases on there too. But the JB archives there have it ALL- interviews, crime photos, the autopsy report (I highly recommend reading this- it is the only way to get a true picture of her injuries- there are lots of people here with enough medical knowledge to explain if needed) and photos of the house as well as screen captures of her pageants, etc. It is the largest collection of research materials on the case, presented objectively.

 

[ahoyhoy]

Please don't be shy about posting and don't feel embarrassed. We all had to start somewhere and learned as we went along. It took me almost 2 years of reading (here, FFJ and acandyrose) before I felt well-informed enough to join and actually start posting. I read several books, too. And I often recommend a 2-hour "Crash course" for people who don't have time to do extensive research. Rent the DVD "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town" by Lawrence Schiller, who wrote a book of the same title, which is also an excellent source for resource material and fairly objective, too. James Kolar's book is excellent and gives some previously unknown insight. ST's book is a good one, too. But read a little source material each day- 20 minutes or so, and in no time you'll feel very informed. Try here http://www.acandyrose.com
and be sure to scroll down to the "JonBenet Archives" . There are a lot of other cold cases on there too. But the JB archives there have it ALL- interviews, crime photos, the autopsy report (I highly recommend reading this- it is the only way to get a true picture of her injuries- there are lots of people here with enough medical knowledge to explain if needed) and photos of the house as well as screen captures of her pageants, etc. It is the largest collection of research materials on the case, presented objectively.

Thanks, DeeDee...But I have read all you've suggested, except Kolar (yet).

But--I can't keep up like so many here, with new info, new updates, theories. I hate thinking I'm working on outdated info is all. But everyone IS very nice here, thanks. I'm just shy anyway.

 

[AD0086]

Like I've said before, I go back and forth between RDI & BDI ... Most of you have convinced me that BDI. However, my question is: if BDI, what sense does it make for him to ask during the 911 fiasco "What did you find?" Wouldn't he be well aware of what they found? Perhaps the R's instructed him back to his room after the "accident" and went on staging without him. Guess I just answered my own question...

 

[UKGuy]

Like I've said before, I go back and forth between RDI & BDI ... Most of you have convinced me that BDI. However, my question is: if BDI, what sense does it make for him to ask during the 911 fiasco "What did you find?" Wouldn't he be well aware of what they found? Perhaps the R's instructed him back to his room after the "accident" and went on staging without him. Guess I just answered my own question...

AD0086,
Of all the theories BDI is the most consistent it answers the most questions, but its still a theory.

What might have been found was something that one of the R's had mistakenly left behind.

We assume the search was in the basement but it might just as well have referred to JonBenet's or Burke's bedroom. Just because she was killed in the basement, it does'nt follow that the primary crime-scene was in the basement?

If its BDI BR may have only given his parents part of the story, and left out stuff they could never know about. This is why he might be curious as to what was found?

Can you imagine BR saying to his parents I whacked JonBenet because she would not do what I told her?


.

 

[AD0086]

AD0086,
Of all the theories BDI is the most consistent it answers the most questions, but its still a theory.

What might have been found was something that one of the R's had mistakenly left behind.

We assume the search was in the basement but it might just as well have referred to JonBenet's or Burke's bedroom. Just because she was killed in the basement, it does'nt follow that the primary crime-scene was in the basement?

If its BDI BR may have only given his parents part of the story, and left out stuff they could never know about. This is why he might be curious as to what was found?

Can you imagine BR saying to his parents I whacked JonBenet because she would not do what I told her?


.

I guess you don't understand what I'm trying to say. I didn't word it well. I was simply wondering why Burke would ask them what they found if he was part of the killing. Its just a very odd question to ask. IDK. I think I'm confusing myself!

 

[DeeDee249]

Like I've said before, I go back and forth between RDI & BDI ... Most of you have convinced me that BDI. However, my question is: if BDI, what sense does it make for him to ask during the 911 fiasco "What did you find?" Wouldn't he be well aware of what they found? Perhaps the R's instructed him back to his room after the "accident" and went on staging without him. Guess I just answered my own question...

I lean towards BDI as it fills in the most gaps. But I do not think he had anything to do with the staging. At all.
There are some who feel that BR knew he hurt her but did not know he killed her, though I am not sure I believe that. For one, I think he may have been too old to believe that someone coincidentally snuck in and killed her the same night he bashed her into a coma. This isn't a very realistic scenario as far as I am concerned, but BR was a disinterested and distant kid and very capable of distancing himself from that night, his participation and even from the fact that he had a sister at all. So he may not even have questioned why she was dead when he thought he didn't kill her. Her dying was seen as a completely separate event and not connected to her bash on on the head or the sexual assault. His strange and distant behavior in the time right after his sister's death is very telling. And over time, people tend to remember things the way they are told they happened rather than the way it really happened (his parents claim they never spoke about JB'd death but I am not sure I believe that). And kids remember their own version of an event even after they are grown.

 

[AD0086]

I lean towards BDI as it fills in the most gaps. But I do not think he had anything to do with the staging. At all.
There are some who feel that BR knew he hurt her but did not know he killed her, though I am not sure I believe that. For one, I think he may have been too old to believe that someone coincidentally snuck in and killed her the same night he bashed her into a coma. This isn't a very realistic scenario as far as I am concerned, but BR was a disinterested and distant kid and very capable of distancing himself from that night, his participation and even from the fact that he had a sister at all. So he may not even have questioned why she was dead when he thought he didn't kill her. Her dying was seen as a completely separate event and not connected to her bash on on the head or the sexual assault. His strange and distant behavior in the time right after his sister's death is very telling. And over time, people tend to remember things the way they are told they happened rather than the way it really happened (his parents claim they never spoke about JB'd death but I am not sure I believe that). And kids remember their own version of an event even after they are grown.

This makes all the sense in the world. To be a fly on that well when all, well, most of the dust settled. I wonder if JR and BR ever spoke about it to one another or even confessed. I imagine PR has told a priest or two..

 

[otg]

Like I've said before, I go back and forth between RDI & BDI ... Most of you have convinced me that BDI. However, my question is: if BDI, what sense does it make for him to ask during the 911 fiasco "What did you find?" Wouldn't he be well aware of what they found? Perhaps the R's instructed him back to his room after the "accident" and went on staging without him. Guess I just answered my own question...

You did.

If BR caused her death and was aware of it (which I believe happened), his parents (for reasons we don't have to get into now) may very well have decided to cover the whole thing up with this elaborate "kidnap" ruse. BR may have been told to just stay out of their way while they "fixed" things. When they were done, they told him to keep quiet while they called the police. And for the most part, he did, until he and everyone else in the room thought the call was ended and the phone was hung up (of course, it wasn't). At that point, he hadn't been told what the "plan" was, so when PR got off the phone, he wanted to know what that was that she told 911 she had found (the RN). If you have heard the tape, it sounds (to me anyway) like he is saying, "What did you..." when the tape stops. What would his next word have been? Perhaps he might have been asking, "What did you find?" After all, he didn't know anything at that point about any ransom note. And JR's response was, "We're not speaking to you."

Also, if you listen to the 911 tape, pay particular attention to the very beginning where PR is talking to someone before she realizes the phone call has been answered. Listen to what she says and the tone of voice she is using compared to the change in her tone when she realizes that the 911 operator is on the phone.

 

[Frigga]

otg, where can I find the recording of the 911 call? TIA

 

[cynic]

otg, where can I find the recording of the 911 call? TIA

otg did a fair bit of work with the 911 recording.
Here is one link

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5716395&postcount=96"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Who Has Heard Burke's Voice on The 911 Tape?[/ame]

 

[ahoyhoy]

You did.

If BR caused her death and was aware of it (which I believe happened), his parents (for reasons we don't have to get into now) may very well have decided to cover the whole thing up with this elaborate "kidnap" ruse. BR may have been told to just stay out of their way while they "fixed" things. When they were done, they told him to keep quiet while they called the police. And for the most part, he did, until he and everyone else in the room thought the call was ended and the phone was hung up (of course, it wasn't). At that point, he hadn't been told what the "plan" was, so when PR got off the phone, he wanted to know what that was that she told 911 she had found (the RN). If you have heard the tape, it sounds (to me anyway) like he is saying, "What did you..." when the tape stops. What would his next word have been? Perhaps he might have been asking, "What did you find?" After all, he didn't know anything at that point about any ransom note. And JR's response was, "We're not speaking to you."

Also, if you listen to the 911 tape, pay particular attention to the very beginning where PR is talking to someone before she realizes the phone call has been answered. Listen to what she says and the tone of voice she is using compared to the change in her tone when she realizes that the 911 operator is on the phone.

otg, I enjoy your posts, thank you.

Burke's voice---I was lucky enough to remember hearing the tape on the news BEFORE it was edited. Then poof BR disappeared from the tape, was sleeping, everyone stop asking.
Things like the unexplained editing of the tape are exactly what hooked me on this case, way back when. SO many helping this fishiness along from the start.
Back then I was immediately struck by how ANY parent could be cross with their remaining baby, if the other had just been kidnapped. I'd be holding him with both hands, not sniping at him and shipping him off first thing. Unless of course, BR was the REASON for all this stress...'We're not speaking to YOU'--with disgust in his voice?!

I agree with you though, I think BR at least WITNESSED or knew JB was gone that morning, but he was confused because if not JB's BODY, then what DID they find? = BR unaware of staging, of course. Now the staging is something I KNOW he was too young for. Especially that cheesy RN!

Thanks for your great posts again, otg. Very thoughtful.

 

[Darlene733510]

I wonder if Burke was asking. "what did you find". or "what did you do to her, or what did you do with her"? If he really knows what happened, or was the cause of it, it's no wonder he was on medication, and all the other problems. I guess this whole family will take their secrets to the grave, just as PR did. I always hoped that before she passed away there would be some kind of confession. It makes me wonder if she was protecting both JR and BR.

 

[arielilane]

Please let us know what you think when you have finished the book!

Will do. Thank you

 

[arielilane]

Like I've said before, I go back and forth between RDI & BDI ... Most of you have convinced me that BDI. However, my question is: if BDI, what sense does it make for him to ask during the 911 fiasco "What did you find?" Wouldn't he be well aware of what they found? Perhaps the R's instructed him back to his room after the "accident" and went on staging without him. Guess I just answered my own question...

I have always been RDI. B's comment especially has been an interest, "what did you find?" So I agree with what you have stated. I also believe that the R's instructed B to play asleep, briefly explaining to him that someone took JonBenet.
At 5:52am the 911 call is made and 4 minutes later Officer French is at the door...

 

[OneLove]

I wonder if Burke was asking. "what did you find". or "what did you do to her, or what did you do with her"? If he really knows what happened, or was the cause of it, it's no wonder he was on medication, and all the other problems. I guess this whole family will take their secrets to the grave, just as PR did. I always hoped that before she passed away there would be some kind of confession. It makes me wonder if she was protecting both JR and BR.

This is the only thing that keeps me from believing PR was guilty. If she did do the deed herself, I can understand her not copping to it during her life. But at the end, knowing for sure that she would die, I would have thought she would confess so that BR and JR no longer had to live under the eternal cloud of suspicion.

Protecting her son is the only reason I can see for Patsy doing the things she did in the aftermath of JBR's death. But in the end, she could not say that she herself had done it in order to give her son that freedom of suspicion. That got my attention.

 

[deca]

Although B asking, "What did you find?" is not out and out damning by any stretch of the imagination, I do think that it could be a natural thing for a child to say who has been "caught" doing something bad.

For example: teen has a party when her parents are out. Parents come back and are upset. The teen doesn't just stand there and confess his sins- he want to sneakily see WHAT the parents know. So he asks: "What did you find?"

I have seen younger children do this: a certain 4 year old in my house who colored on the walls saw me angrily looking at the artwork. She turned to me and said, "What?" with a guilty look on her face. Even kids this age know you don't incriminate yourself. :twocents: