Was Burke involved?

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DNA Solves

Was Burke involved in JB's death?

  • Burke was involved in the death of JBR

    Votes: 377 59.6%
  • Burke was totally uninvolved in her death

    Votes: 256 40.4%

  • Total voters
    633
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Understood, but that is why JR, even if he didn't actually hit JB, or tighten the garote could be tried still. He without doubt was involved in her death, as well as the fact that instead of reporting what happened, he took an active part in it.

If he tried to help PR in any way, shape, or form, he is just as guilty. I truly believe they both thought JB was dead before they attempted staging a scene, but since it is proven that she wasn't, bang, they are guilty of murder.
Hi, Sunnie! Long time...

I don't think it has been proven that JB was alive when the staging was done. What we have is different "experts" who disagree on how long it was between the head blow and the strangulation. And add to that, there are still some who cling to the belief that the strangulation came before the head blow.

The staging that was done is tampering with evidence by altering the scene of a crime. It was a felony until the statute of limitations expired. Now, sixteen years later, it is no longer prosecutable, so it doesn't matter.

If, OTOH, anything that was done in the process of staging actually contributed to the cause of death... then there would be a case that could be made for murder/manslaughter (assuming the person was over the age of ten).

As to those who think BR could be compelled to testify, he could be called as a witness. It would only take less than a minute for him to state his name for the record, and then swear that he had absolutely no recollection of any of the events of that night. Then a psychologist would be called to offer his\her expert opinion that it is a known fact that traumatic events like this are oftentimes completely blocked out of the memory of someone who has lived through the experience. That is all that will ever be gotten from the poop perp.
 
Hi, Sunnie! Long time...

I don't think it has been proven that JB was alive when the staging was done. What we have is different "experts" who disagree on how long it was between the head blow and the strangulation. And add to that, there are still some who cling to the belief that the strangulation came before the head blow.

The staging that was done is tampering with evidence by altering the scene of a crime. It was a felony until the statute of limitations expired. Now, sixteen years later, it is no longer prosecutable, so it doesn't matter.

If, OTOH, anything that was done in the process of staging actually contributed to the cause of death... then there would be a case that could be made for murder/manslaughter (assuming the person was over the age of ten).

As to those who think BR could be compelled to testify, he could be called as a witness. It would only take less than a minute for him to state his name for the record, and then swear that he had absolutely no recollection of any of the events of that night. Then a psychologist would be called to offer his\her expert opinion that it is a known fact that traumatic events like this are oftentimes completely blocked out of the memory of someone who has lived through the experience. That is all that will ever be gotten from the poop perp.

Hi OTG, great to 'see' you!! I took a self imposed hiatus from posting due to things resulting from another case.

What I was trying to say, and obviously did so, poorly, was that even if JR did not hit JB on the head, (which I don't believe he did), he was still involved during the use of the garote, (used here as that is how it is often referred to in this case), which was the actual cause of death. This can, I believe, be proven by the fact that JR's DNA was found on the undies.
 
If JR would be charged with Felony Murder, Burke could be subpoenaed as a witness. Probably would be done by the prosecution. I doubt any of the RST would call Burke to the stand. Based on his history, I would guess he might be considered a hostile witness, but he still would have to answer the call.

Right, there are no charges that would apply to Burke.

I'm not so sure that JR would be found Not Guilty by a well-selected jury, but even if he would be, I want to believe that a well-prosecuted trial would bring a solution to the crime that would enable the case to be closed. Either Burke, who can face no charges, would get the wrap, or Patsy, and with her gone, end of story. :gavel:

midwest mama,
JR on trial would be like OJ or MJ except 10 times as big. The running commentaries about Burke's appearance as a witness, would likely tell the world what the real sub-plot is.

JR would walk free because there is so little evidence against him, he could claim it was PDI and get Burke to take the stand on the issues that might swing it his way.

For us RDI it would mean the evidence being published into the public domain, yet would the BPD or the DA's Office really want that? Since it might put on display, to the rest of the world either how incompetent or corrupt they are.


I suspect nobody in authority wants to see JR on trial. Currently they have all weathered the JonBenet storm, so are living the quiet life, having feasted on the death of JonBenet.

So thats really the key to the case as I see it. Is there a DA out there willing to prosecute this case?


.
 
midwest mama,
JR on trial would be like OJ or MJ except 10 times as big. The running commentaries about Burke's appearance as a witness, would likely tell the world what the real sub-plot is.

JR would walk free because there is so little evidence against him, he could claim it was PDI and get Burke to take the stand on the issues that might swing it his way.

For us RDI it would mean the evidence being published into the public domain, yet would the BPD or the DA's Office really want that? Since it might put on display, to the rest of the world either how incompetent or corrupt they are.


I suspect nobody in authority wants to see JR on trial. Currently they have all weathered the JonBenet storm, so are living the quiet life, having feasted on the death of JonBenet.

So thats really the key to the case as I see it. Is there a DA out there willing to prosecute this case?

Which leads to yet another question. Is this the reason the case will remain open, so documents can not be released?
 
Which leads to yet another question. Is this the reason the case will remain open, so documents can not be released?

SunnieRN,
I think so. As long as it has Cold Case status, no evidence can be made public.



.
 
Hi OTG, great to 'see' you!! I took a self imposed hiatus from posting due to things resulting from another case.

What I was trying to say, and obviously did so, poorly, was that even if JR did not hit JB on the head, (which I don't believe he did), he was still involved during the use of the garote, (used here as that is how it is often referred to in this case), which was the actual cause of death. This can, I believe, be proven by the fact that JR's DNA was found on the undies.

JR's DNA was not found on the undies. His FIBERS from the dark wool shirt he wore that day were found inside the panty crotch.
 
<snip>

What the Ramsey's want most of all is silence, and the media to go away and never come back. <snip>
.

That's what makes me curious as to why John Ramsey wrote yet another book and left himself and Burke open to more publicity and media scrutiny. That suggests either Patsy did it or John wants people to think Patsy did it. I can not see him projecting Burke into the limelight again for any reason.
 
That's what makes me curious as to why John Ramsey wrote yet another book and left himself and Burke open to more publicity and media scrutiny. That suggests either Patsy did it or John wants people to think Patsy did it. I can not see him projecting Burke into the limelight again for any reason.

BOESP,
Yes a curious one. Except he was re-marrying. I reckon he knew the statute of limitations was due to run out. Burke appears to be getting on with his life, no accidents yet!

So he went for a public makeover, could be in his own mind, he is innocent, only guilty of protecting his family?

John Ramsey does not write his books for the money, the guy is comfortable as the rich say. No need to work, or worry about bills, at his age health takes over as a major expense.

I reckon John Ramsey wants to enjoy the quiet life and his marriage in his twilight years.


.
 
BOESP,
Yes a curious one. Except he was re-marrying. I reckon he knew the statute of limitations was due to run out. Burke appears to be getting on with his life, no accidents yet!

So he went for a public makeover, could be in his own mind, he is innocent, only guilty of protecting his family?

John Ramsey does not write his books for the money, the guy is comfortable as the rich say. No need to work, or worry about bills, at his age health takes over as a major expense.

I reckon John Ramsey wants to enjoy the quiet life and his marriage in his twilight years.


.

There really wasn't much focus on Burke at all during his press tour. Except for a brief statement about him in People magazine, and I think he was brought up in the Anderson interview, he wasn't really mentioned.

John might not be desperate for money (I'm sure we would hear from him in the media much more often if he was) but I'm sure he wouldn't mind gaining a few extra $$. Just look at the Kardashians. They are super wealthy, and they still do anything they can to make more. That goes for a lot of celebrities.
 
There really wasn't much focus on Burke at all during his press tour. Except for a brief statement about him in People magazine, and I think he was brought up in the Anderson interview, he wasn't really mentioned.

John might not be desperate for money (I'm sure we would hear from him in the media much more often if he was) but I'm sure he wouldn't mind gaining a few extra $$. Just look at the Kardashians. They are super wealthy, and they still do anything they can to make more. That goes for a lot of celebrities.

eileenhawkeye,
Sure, in the world of celebrity acquisition of capital is always on display, its alike a mirror reflection of society, where greed and debt is applauded.

Whereas John Ramsey is a corporate citizen, someone versed in the arts of corporate politics and deals.

Without doing any research I would predict John Ramsey will be the major shareholder in an offshore company for the purpose of minimising his tax liabilities.


.
 
That's what makes me curious as to why John Ramsey wrote yet another book and left himself and Burke open to more publicity and media scrutiny. That suggests either Patsy did it or John wants people to think Patsy did it. I can not see him projecting Burke into the limelight again for any reason.

BBM: Bingo!
 
Thanks for the responses you all. If his new book mentions JonBenet or his old family at all, then Burke comes to my mind and if Burke did it no real man would continue anything in public that might cast doubt on his son.

I don't see the book and it's publicity clearing Mr. Ramsey's image of anything. It just keeps him in the public eye. I'd guess he sees it as a part of keeping the Intruder theory alive.
 
Thanks for the responses you all. If his new book mentions JonBenet or his old family at all, then Burke comes to my mind and if Burke did it no real man would continue anything in public that might cast doubt on his son.

I don't see the book and it's publicity clearing Mr. Ramsey's image of anything. It just keeps him in the public eye. I'd guess he sees it as a part of keeping the Intruder theory alive.

According to Amazon....

Burke is mentioned on 51 pages in John's book.

JonBenet's name is spelled "Jon Benet" on 44 pages. WTF.
 
Per Kohler's Book (which demystified so much) I think the end of the 911 call that was captured after Patsy thought she had already hung up is rather enlightening:

Male Voice (Angrily): We are not talking to you!
Female: Help me Jesus. Help me Jesus.
Young Male: Well, what did you find?

I thought Burke was asleep? Why did they lie about that?

I also found the presents hidden in the same room as JonBenet interesting. The wrapping paper was torn as if a child wanted to peek at what they were. I think JB and Burke were down there playing or peeking at the presents and something went horribly wrong. Obviously.

I am convinced that they covered for Burke, even if he couldn't be prosecuted due to his age, The Ramsey's were all about appearing perfect and would never tolerate having their family viewed as anything less. Especially Patsy.
 
According to Cyril Wecht he entered the case via a phone call from a supermarket tabloid, the Globe. He did not know the case he was being asked to review, only told that it was on the "west coast." When he got the photos, he realized the case was that of JBR. From what he could see, he thought she had been bound with the intent to restrain, not kill. It even hinted of a sex game gone wrong. The fact that the killer had written a ransom note as an afterthought, rather than bringing it along, also seemed strangely unprepared for a kidnapping, as did the note's complexity, content and length. Wecht decided that molestation was the primary motive and that the death itself was accidental.

As he paid attention to the case and read the portion of the autopsy report that was released, he noted items that supported the likelihood of chronic sexual abuse—that is, her vaginal injury had not occurred at the time of the crime. It may have been done by a finger or some object, not via outright rape, but he believed it was clear that before the murder someone had behaved inappropriately with the child.

People both inside and outside of the investigation reacted to that statement.

Yet as more of the autopsy report was released, he felt more certain of his analysis, and recent events appear to bear him out.

"I have learned that the police called in three separate child sexual abuse experts," he reports. "They separately and independently came to the same conclusion that there was evidence of prior sexual abuse. Not that I needed anybody to hold my hand, but for saying that same thing I took abuse on national television from self-appointed Ramsey defenders and sycophants. But it's the most ridiculous thing in the world, a little girl with half of the hymen gone and she's dead, and you've got a tiny abrasion, a tiny contusion and a chronic inflammation of vaginal mucosa. That means it happened more than 72 hours earlier; we don't know how long, or how often it was repeated, but chronic means it wasn't from that night. This was a tragic, tragic accident. This was a game that had been played before."

Wecht was also troubled by the blow to the head, an eight-and-a-half inch fracture that had split the bone. Around it was an area of hemorrhaging, while under the skull there had been more bleeding, but the report on that was a surprise. There was much less blood found than he had expected. He believed that meant that at the time of the blow, she'd had a relatively weak, even nonexistent, heartbeat.

"If you inflict a blow like that on someone whose heart is beating," he asserts, "the heart doesn't stop, because the cardiac and respiratory centers are at the base of the brain. You're not damaging that with a blow to the top of the head. It'll become compromised as the brain swells, but initially there's no compromise. They control your heart and lungs. The heart continues to beat. The blood continues to flow. But in the Ramsey case, they got less than a teaspoon and a half of blood. If you have a beating heart and the carotid arteries are carrying blood, this person doesn't die right away. That means that blow was inflicted when she was already dead or dying."

He also had seen a partial transcript of an interrogation of JR from very early in the case, which supported his ideas. "The cops were asking him what he knew about the experts on the case, and he said he'd heard different things. Among the things was that an expert had said that the blows were inflicted when she was dead or dying. I've been saying that for several years."

Wecht went on to write a book about the case, Who Killed JBR?, to provide his medical opinion in much more detail. Contrary to more recent reports, he does not believe that the evidence supports the notion that an intruder perpetrated this deed.

I am of the opinion that JB was abused by BR. BR's involvement in the murder in MOO: LHP stated she found JB and BR playing doctor and they yelled at her to get out of the room. The fact that BR smeared JB's box of chocolates with with his poop speaks volumes of sibling rivalry. He was an early riser, loved to fly (reason for hi-tec compass shoe). He was fixing to board his father's plane the next morning and he wasn't excited about this but slept right through until somebody woke him the next morning? Yet we hear his voice overheard on the 911 call? We all are aware of the fact that he still has an interest in flying and his bedroom was decorated in planes at the time of JB murder. Obviously still one of his passions. His fingerprints found on the glass of tea and the bowl of pineapple. His DNA found on her nightgown. Possibly his footprint in the basement (Hi-Tec). The opened Christmas presents found in the basement. BR swiss army knife found in the basement. The train track imprints on JB's back, which suggests she was in the train room at some point during her murder. We can't say that BR wasn't there. Motive - sexual jealousy. It is also fact that the parents staged the murder. There is simply to much forensic evidence linking them to it.
 
According to Cyril Wecht he entered the case via a phone call from a supermarket tabloid, the Globe. He did not know the case he was being asked to review, only told that it was on the "west coast." When he got the photos, he realized the case was that of JBR. From what he could see, he thought she had been bound with the intent to restrain, not kill. It even hinted of a sex game gone wrong. The fact that the killer had written a ransom note as an afterthought, rather than bringing it along, also seemed strangely unprepared for a kidnapping, as did the note's complexity, content and length. Wecht decided that molestation was the primary motive and that the death itself was accidental.

As he paid attention to the case and read the portion of the autopsy report that was released, he noted items that supported the likelihood of chronic sexual abuse—that is, her vaginal injury had not occurred at the time of the crime. It may have been done by a finger or some object, not via outright rape, but he believed it was clear that before the murder someone had behaved inappropriately with the child.

People both inside and outside of the investigation reacted to that statement.

Yet as more of the autopsy report was released, he felt more certain of his analysis, and recent events appear to bear him out.

"I have learned that the police called in three separate child sexual abuse experts," he reports. "They separately and independently came to the same conclusion that there was evidence of prior sexual abuse. Not that I needed anybody to hold my hand, but for saying that same thing I took abuse on national television from self-appointed Ramsey defenders and sycophants. But it's the most ridiculous thing in the world, a little girl with half of the hymen gone and she's dead, and you've got a tiny abrasion, a tiny contusion and a chronic inflammation of vaginal mucosa. That means it happened more than 72 hours earlier; we don't know how long, or how often it was repeated, but chronic means it wasn't from that night. This was a tragic, tragic accident. This was a game that had been played before."

Wecht was also troubled by the blow to the head, an eight-and-a-half inch fracture that had split the bone. Around it was an area of hemorrhaging, while under the skull there had been more bleeding, but the report on that was a surprise. There was much less blood found than he had expected. He believed that meant that at the time of the blow, she'd had a relatively weak, even nonexistent, heartbeat.

"If you inflict a blow like that on someone whose heart is beating," he asserts, "the heart doesn't stop, because the cardiac and respiratory centers are at the base of the brain. You're not damaging that with a blow to the top of the head. It'll become compromised as the brain swells, but initially there's no compromise. They control your heart and lungs. The heart continues to beat. The blood continues to flow. But in the Ramsey case, they got less than a teaspoon and a half of blood. If you have a beating heart and the carotid arteries are carrying blood, this person doesn't die right away. That means that blow was inflicted when she was already dead or dying."

He also had seen a partial transcript of an interrogation of JR from very early in the case, which supported his ideas. "The cops were asking him what he knew about the experts on the case, and he said he'd heard different things. Among the things was that an expert had said that the blows were inflicted when she was dead or dying. I've been saying that for several years."

Wecht went on to write a book about the case, Who Killed JBR?, to provide his medical opinion in much more detail. Contrary to more recent reports, he does not believe that the evidence supports the notion that an intruder perpetrated this deed.

I am of the opinion that JB was abused by BR. BR's involvement in the murder in MOO: LHP stated she found JB and BR playing doctor and they yelled at her to get out of the room. The fact that BR smeared JB's box of chocolates with with his poop speaks volumes of sibling rivalry. He was an early riser, loved to fly (reason for hi-tec compass shoe). He was fixing to board his father's plane the next morning and he wasn't excited about this but slept right through until somebody woke him the next morning? Yet we hear his voice overheard on the 911 call? We all are aware of the fact that he still has an interest in flying and his bedroom was decorated in planes at the time of JB murder. Obviously still one of his passions. His fingerprints found on the glass of tea and the bowl of pineapple. His DNA found on her nightgown. Possibly his footprint in the basement (Hi-Tec). The opened Christmas presents found in the basement. BR swiss army knife found in the basement. The train track imprints on JB's back, which suggests she was in the train room at some point during her murder. We can't say that BR wasn't there. Motive - sexual jealousy. It is also fact that the parents staged the murder. There is simply to much forensic evidence linking them to it.

Flatlander,
Yup, I have to agree with much of what you say. The evidence is piling up against BR.

One little detail that might be passed over is this:
But it's the most ridiculous thing in the world, a little girl with half of the hymen gone and she's dead, and you've got a tiny abrasion, a tiny contusion and a chronic inflammation of vaginal mucosa. That means it happened more than 72 hours earlier;
Now for those aware of events, this might mean it takes us back to 12/23 and the Ramsey's Christmas party, where I have suggested JonBenet was molested, leaving her feeling degraded and not pretty?

At another extreme there is the possibility of familial abuse which incorporates other families?

.
 
Per Kohler's Book (which demystified so much) I think the end of the 911 call that was captured after Patsy thought she had already hung up is rather enlightening:

Male Voice (Angrily): We are not talking to you!
Female: Help me Jesus. Help me Jesus.
Young Male: Well, what did you find?

I thought Burke was asleep? Why did they lie about that?

I also found the presents hidden in the same room as JonBenet interesting. The wrapping paper was torn as if a child wanted to peek at what they were. I think JB and Burke were down there playing or peeking at the presents and something went horribly wrong. Obviously.

I am convinced that they covered for Burke, even if he couldn't be prosecuted due to his age, The Ramsey's were all about appearing perfect and would never tolerate having their family viewed as anything less. Especially Patsy.

They lied about a lot of things. They didn't WANT police to question BR, so they later admitted they felt "it was easier" to just say he was asleep the whole time. To me, this is yet another indication of BR's involvement. They wanted to give the impression he was unaware of ANYTHING that happened after they got home that night. Frankly, we have no real proof that BR went to bed or sleep at all. We have only their word. They could have sent him to his room that morning, before police arrived and just told him to stay there. Then, they got him out of the house as soon as they could. Why police allowed this is a mystery as well. He was present in the house at the time his sister was "kidnapped" and killed. At that time, the police thought this WAS a real kidnapping and it was not yet found to be a murder. I would think it was very important to talk to the three remaining "survivors".
 
They lied about a lot of things. They didn't WANT police to question BR, so they later admitted they felt "it was easier" to just say he was asleep the whole time. To me, this is yet another indication of BR's involvement. They wanted to give the impression he was unaware of ANYTHING that happened after they got home that night. Frankly, we have no real proof that BR went to bed or sleep at all. We have only their word. They could have sent him to his room that morning, before police arrived and just told him to stay there. Then, they got him out of the house as soon as they could. Why police allowed this is a mystery as well. He was present in the house at the time his sister was "kidnapped" and killed. At that time, the police thought this WAS a real kidnapping and it was not yet found to be a murder. I would think it was very important to talk to the three remaining "survivors".

The train track, not stun gun, imprint on her back was also VERY interesting. The smeared poop on her candy that JK spoke of in his book, the pathology that he thinks Burke may have had. And yes...the pineapple, the tea.

The uber creepy question..."Well, what did you find?" It almost sounds like a challenge. Didn't he (Burke) strike her before with a golf club? JR asked the woman that went back to get special items from JB's room before her services and then said " Get his golf clubs"

Why?

And yes, they covered it up for sure. That ransom note was ridiculous. No intruder would sit there and write a book of a hollywood type ransom note after or before murdering a child. Such a ridiculous premise.
 
That ransom note was ridiculous. No intruder would sit there and write a book of a hollywood type ransom note after or before murdering a child. Such a ridiculous premise.

Don't you think her parents would have known that?
 
I can't remember where I read it, might have been a comment from ST. When JR and Mr. Fernie went to get Burke up to take him away from the Ramsey house, he never once questioned why all the people and the police were there. He probably knew why the were there, that's why he asked no questions.
 
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