Was Burke involved?

[Flatlander]

Flatlander,
Yup, I have to agree with much of what you say. The evidence is piling up against BR.

One little detail that might be passed over is this:

Now for those aware of events, this might mean it takes us back to 12/23 and the Ramsey's Christmas party, where I have suggested JonBenet was molested, leaving her feeling degraded and not pretty?

At another extreme there is the possibility of familial abuse which incorporates other families?

.

I was thinking about the 23rd when I was typing but didn't include. You are right it was definitely an alarm. If I remember correctly PR's pit bull answered the door and sent the police on their way. Poor little JB!

 

[Spice]

Don't you think her parents would have known that?

I would think anyone with any common sense would know that. I also know that people do strange and outrageous things when they are in a state of fear and desperation.

And due to a myriad of issues surrounding the case, that ridiculous ransom note, unwavering lie, and endless financial and legal resources were able to create the preposterous notion of an intruder/s that continues to this very day when it was never believable to begin with. Futhermore, the evidence does not support it at all.

JB never got the justice that her short life deserved and I doubt she ever will. Whether her parents knew their "story" didn't hold water or not is moot.

After all, what other choice did people in that house have to avoid prison ?

 

[Darlene733510]

I have a question. If a child has Aspergers do they outgrow it? I did read that they lack the feeling of emotion. So, if BR was the one who was responsible for this horrible deed, would his feelings change as he got older, and has he ever felt regret for what happened.
If a normal person did kill someone, and got away with it, I would think it would haunt them forever.
Does anyone remember hearing anything about his or the parents reaction to when he hit
JB with the golf club? Getting access to a lot of records sure would be a breakthrough. I
still have hope that someone will care enough to re-open the case.

 

[SunnieRN]

Darlene, all I remember hearing about the Burke/golf club incident, was that Patsy panicked and wanted JB to see a plastic surgeon, even though the doctor, (ER or family physician?) felt it wasn't necessary.

JR's DNA was not found on the undies. His FIBERS from the dark wool shirt he wore that day were found inside the panty crotch.

Thank you DeeDee, not sure where in the heck I came up with that. Still the fibers don't lie!! Thanks again.

 

[Spice]

I have a question. If a child has Aspergers do they outgrow it? I did read that they lack the feeling of emotion. So, if BR was the one who was responsible for this horrible deed, would his feelings change as he got older, and has he ever felt regret for what happened.
If a normal person did kill someone, and got away with it, I would think it would haunt them forever.
Does anyone remember hearing anything about his or the parents reaction to when he hit
JB with the golf club? Getting access to a lot of records sure would be a breakthrough. I
still have hope that someone will care enough to re-open the case.

As a future social worker, who has worked with children with Aspergers and Autism, it is important that people understand that contrary to what the irresponsible media would have you believe in the wake of Sandy Hook, there is absolutely no connection to murderous violence and Aspergers.

So many people have it and if that were the case you would be seeing a lot more bloodshed all over this country.

People with Aspergers suffer from a social disorder, they do not lack empathy like a sociopath. Depending on how high they are on the spectrum (and many are very high functioning) they do not like or need the same social contact as we do. They give awkward responses, stim (flipping) when in normal social situations to deal with the anxiety that comes with it, and do not like touch or eye contact very much. Aspergers is not something that can be outgrown but it can be helped with therapy.

My frustration is not with you personally, It's just so upsetting that the media has shed this incorrect light on this disorder.

 

[Darlene733510]

So.....we can rule out that Aspergers would never be a cause for BR to inflict damage to his little sister.
There is one thing that I would not rule out is that if a child was jealous of all the attention JB received, and this was over a period of time, he would not hesitate to hurt her. By getting rid of the one whom he felt rec d too much attention, then he would be "the apple of his parents eye".
BR also had accidents of soiling his pants. I don't know the cause, but I have heard other people who had children that also had soiling issues. Some had Aspergers, some were sexually abused. I can see this happening if a child is very young, but, at his age, Burke certainly must have been potty trained.
The best way to ever get to the bottom of the murder of this precious child would be to have it re-opened and all records unsealed, including medical.

 

[SunnieRN]

Hi Darlene, it sure seemed to work out for Burke as you predicted. He was then the only child of John and Patsy's union, doted on by both his parents. I wonder how Patsy was toward Burke after JonBenet died?

Everything here is theory, of course, but can you imagine what he would be living with if he is truly responsible for JonBenets death? How could you ever really live with that?

 

[Nom de plume]

As a future social worker, who has worked with children with Aspergers and Autism, it is important that people understand that contrary to what the irresponsible media would have you believe in the wake of Sandy Hook, there is absolutely no connection to murderous violence and Aspergers.

So many people have it and if that were the case you would be seeing a lot more bloodshed all over this country.

People with Aspergers suffer from a social disorder, they do not lack empathy like a sociopath. Depending on how high they are on the spectrum (and many are very high functioning) they do not like or need the same social contact as we do. They give awkward responses, stim (flipping) when in normal social situations to deal with the anxiety that comes with it, and do not like touch or eye contact very much. Aspergers is not something that can be outgrown but it can be helped with therapy.

My frustration is not with you personally, It's just so upsetting that the media has shed this incorrect light on this disorder.

Spice thank you! I too am getting very frustrated with the media's portrayal of Aspergers since Sandy Hook!! To me it's completely irrelevant if he had it or not. It had nothing to do with what he did. If it were not for the fact that my step daughter has it, I would not know how far off the mark the media is about Aspergers. It's highly insulting to people with Aspergers to be labeled as homicidal sociopaths!

 

[arielilane]

I commend Mr. Kolar for a well written book. A must read for anyone that is not familiar with the JB murder case. A lot of redundancy for people familiar with the case.

With that said, kudos to Gregg McCrary.
L. Smit and J. Douglas : both are laughable.

Douglas was a huge disappointment. I used to respect his work.

The only time I did not pay attention to JB case was during the M. Karr situation. I knew better...

 

[arielilane]

I'm still RDI. Just didn't see that there was really much to go with about BR. Reasonable doubt. It can all be explained. Did I miss something? I definitely will reread that chapter, however; I don' t think it was ever proven that BR was heard on the 911 call. If so, then it was 3 or 4 minutes to get BR upstairs before BPD officer French arrived.



Not that it matters but pages 23 and 25 states 911 call 5:52am and officer arrival 5:56am.


Page 399 states 911 call 5:52 and officer arrival 5:55am.




It's true BR was probably a bit off as a youngster, probably a bit jealous that JB got more attention than he got. What child isn't jealous about their siblings? His father was never around. A lot of young boys have bed wetting issues. Some continue into adulthood. Just because BR hit JB with a golf club before does mean he did it again. Haven't we all been hit by our siblings?

I thought it speaks volumes of PR relating her situation to Susan Smith and OJ Simpson (both parties guilty). Very telling.

 

[arielilane]

I believe BR awoke during the night or around the 911 call and it was explained by JR about JB. JR most likely told BR not to ask any more questions and not to discuss with anyone. I believe it was as basic as someone took her, killed her by knife, blow to the head.

 

[arielilane]

I don't think they wanted LE to know BR had information about that night because they are protecting themselves. BR most likely knows a lot of what happened that night, he possibly heard JB's scream (cry for help). He was 9 years old at the time. A month away from turning 10. Do you think he was going to obey his parents? I would say yes.​

 

[arielilane]

As far as the counseling BR was provided, I can see why the R's would provide that for BR. Poor kid.

 

[arielilane]

It was horrible (there are no words) what happened to JB. It fits a woman in a rage (who was not only tried of the bw, getting two kids to bed, having to go to MI, dealing with the holidays, illness, etc.) than a youngster. With JR in bed and not a care in the world, but thinking about helping to fly his plane.

 

[Flatlander]

As a future social worker, who has worked with children with Aspergers and Autism, it is important that people understand that contrary to what the irresponsible media would have you believe in the wake of Sandy Hook, there is absolutely no connection to murderous violence and Aspergers.

So many people have it and if that were the case you would be seeing a lot more bloodshed all over this country.

People with Aspergers suffer from a social disorder, they do not lack empathy like a sociopath. Depending on how high they are on the spectrum (and many are very high functioning) they do not like or need the same social contact as we do. They give awkward responses, stim (flipping) when in normal social situations to deal with the anxiety that comes with it, and do not like touch or eye contact very much. Aspergers is not something that can be outgrown but it can be helped with therapy.

My frustration is not with you personally, It's just so upsetting that the media has shed this incorrect light on this disorder.

I am sorry I do not know firsthand about this syndrome; merely researched.
According to The National Institute of Neurological Disorders and the Wikipedia: In 1944, an Austrian pediatrician named Hans Asperger observed four children in his practice who had difficulty integrating socially. Although their intelligence appeared normal, the children lacked nonverbal communication skills, failed to demonstrate limited empathy with their peers, and were physically awkward.
I personally wouldn't think that having Aspergers would necessarily indicate that simply because one have the syndrome meant that one was capable of murderous violence. I have always been sensitive to autistic, mentally challenged people. So I would not label them. But I would state that lacking empathy which is lacking emotional feeling could contribute to BR behavior towards JB.

Spice thank you! I too am getting very frustrated with the media's portrayal of Aspergers since Sandy Hook!! To me it's completely irrelevant if he had it or not. It had nothing to do with what he did. If it were not for the fact that my step daughter has it, I would not know how far off the mark the media is about Aspergers. It's highly insulting to people with Aspergers to be labeled as homicidal sociopaths!

Again, I personally wouldn't want to LABEL people with aspergers as homicidal
sociopaths. But when questioned by police 2 days after JB murder BR had this to say according to ST book pg. 123: The boy remembered his sister as being "nice" but added, "Sometimes she bugged me." JonBenet would tickle him and rummage through his desk to find candy and baseball cards. Berdhard asked how he was dealing with his sister's death, and Burke replied, "I kind of forgot about it. I just kind of go ...." and he lapsed into sounds similar to Nintendo beeps: What do you think happened to your sister? I know what happened to my sister. She was killed. But what happened? I know what happened. How was she killed? Have you talked to your parents about it? I asked my dad. Where did you find her body? He said, in the basement. I think someone took her down in the basement ... took a knife out (losing words, he made a slashing gesture) or hit her on the head. He said the house was always locked. His descriptions were flat and indifferent. Bernhard detected no fear that the killer might come back for him or that Burke thought the family was in danger. The psychologist said it was very unusual for a child to feel safe when a sibling had been violently killed. I also believe worth noting is this statement made by BR: I asked my dad. Where did you find her body? Again from ST book page 187: Because we had the enhancement of the 911 tape to prove that their son Burke, was awake when the call was made and Burke was over heard to say "What did you find?"
So to sort of wrap this up I wouldn't want to say that perhaps BR has Aspergers which many dispute here on the forum and possibly he does not. But if you ask me he lacks empathy for the loss of his sister, period. To Nom de plume: my apologies for any insensitive remarks about Aspergers or many misunderstandings.

 

[Nom de plume]

I am sorry I do not know firsthand about this syndrome; merely researched.
According to The National Institute of Neurological Disorders and the Wikipedia: In 1944, an Austrian pediatrician named Hans Asperger observed four children in his practice who had difficulty integrating socially. Although their intelligence appeared normal, the children lacked nonverbal communication skills, failed to demonstrate limited empathy with their peers, and were physically awkward.
I personally wouldn't think that having Aspergers would necessarily indicate that simply because one have the syndrome meant that one was capable of murderous violence. I have always been sensitive to autistic, mentally challenged people. So I would not label them. But I would state that lacking empathy which is lacking emotional feeling could contribute to BR behavior towards JB.



Again, I personally wouldn't want to LABEL people with aspergers as homicidal
sociopaths. But when questioned by police 2 days after JB murder BR had this to say according to ST book pg. 123: The boy remembered his sister as being "nice" but added, "Sometimes she bugged me." JonBenet would tickle him and rummage through his desk to find candy and baseball cards. Berdhard asked how he was dealing with his sister's death, and Burke replied, "I kind of forgot about it. I just kind of go ...." and he lapsed into sounds similar to Nintendo beeps: What do you think happened to your sister? I know what happened to my sister. She was killed. But what happened? I know what happened. How was she killed? Have you talked to your parents about it? I asked my dad. Where did you find her body? He said, in the basement. I think someone took her down in the basement ... took a knife out (losing words, he made a slashing gesture) or hit her on the head. He said the house was always locked. His descriptions were flat and indifferent. Bernhard detected no fear that the killer might come back for him or that Burke thought the family was in danger. The psychologist said it was very unusual for a child to feel safe when a sibling had been violently killed. I also believe worth noting is this statement made by BR: I asked my dad. Where did you find her body? Again from ST book page 187: Because we had the enhancement of the 911 tape to prove that their son Burke, was awake when the call was made and Burke was over heard to say "What did you find?"
So to sort of wrap this up I wouldn't want to say that perhaps BR has Aspergers which many dispute here on the forum and possibly he does not. But if you ask me he lacks empathy for the loss of his sister, period. To Nom de plume: my apologies for any insensitive remarks about Aspergers or many misunderstandings.

UBM I think the key word here is "demonstrate". The lack of ability to show (demonstrate) empathy, and the lack of empathy are two different things. Some people with Aspergers may not have the ability to express empathy, but that does not mean that they don't feel any.

Did BR feel empathy but lacked the ability to show it? Or did he not feel any empathy at all towards his sister? JMO, but I don't think he felt any. That opinion is based not just on that interview, but his apparent lack of concern since then. I personally do not believe that his cold, flat, unfeeling attitude necessarily indicates Aspergers. However, BR's reaction to JBRs death is unnatural and very disturbing. There are a number of disorders that this behavior could fall into.

I am bothered by the fact that this talk about BR possibly having Aspergers continues to be tied to speculation that he was responsible for her death. He might have Aspergers. He might have had something to do with her death. I just do not believe that they are related matters.

Flatlander I know you are not labeling people this way. The media is the guilty party here. No apologies necessary.

 

[dodie20]

UBM I think the key word here is "demonstrate". The lack of ability to show (demonstrate) empathy, and the lack of empathy are two different things. Some people with Aspergers may not have the ability to express empathy, but that does not mean that they don't feel any.

Did BR feel empathy but lacked the ability to show it? Or did he not feel any empathy at all towards his sister? JMO, but I don't think he felt any. That opinion is based not just on that interview, but his apparent lack of concern since then. I personally do not believe that his cold, flat, unfeeling attitude necessarily indicates Aspergers. However, BR's reaction to JBRs death is unnatural and very disturbing. There are a number of disorders that this behavior could fall into.

I am bothered by the fact that this talk about BR possibly having Aspergers continues to be tied to speculation that he was responsible for her death. He might have Aspergers. He might have had something to do with her death. I just do not believe that they are related matters.

Flatlander I know you are not labeling people this way. The media is the guilty party here. No apologies necessary.

I'm not even sure how aspergers was ever brought up. Did somebody verify that BR had it? This is something I've been thinking about...in families where there is a lot of abuse, (especially sexual), all of the kids are taught that certain topics are off limits to outsiders. If JB was being abused and this abuse led to her murder, BR wouldn't have been willing to talk about it or share his feelings. He was only 9 years old and kids this age do and say what they know their parents want them to do and say. So, what came across as a lack of empathy, could have been BR shutting down emotionally, because that's what he had been trained to do and also to protect his family. When looked at like this, I don't think his responses were all that odd. I'm not saying this is what happened, but I do think it's a possibility. Moo.

 

[midwest mama]

I'm not even sure how aspergers was ever brought up. Did somebody verify that BR had it? This is something I've been thinking about...in families where there is a lot of abuse, (especially sexual), all of the kids are taught that certain topics are off limits to outsiders. If JB was being abused and this abuse led to her murder, BR wouldn't have been willing to talk about it or share his feelings. He was only 9 years old and kids this age do and say what they know their parents want them to do and say. So, what came across as a lack of empathy, could have been BR shutting down emotionally, because that's what he had been trained to do and also to protect his family. When looked at like this, I don't think his responses were all that odd. I'm not saying this is what happened, but I do think it's a possibility. Moo.

Dodie - I am with you on this, and I think the reason there was such a squash to seal up Burke's medical records might show there was more to discover about physical, emotional and psychological problems related to Burke at the time of JB's death than we are considering.

 

[midwest mama]

According to PMPT, pg677, Schuler was interviewing Burke in June 1997 over three days. This is info I had not remembered reading before:
"Then Schuler asked what had happened after Burke went to bed. Did he have any dreams? Did he hear anything in his sleep? Burke said he had heard voices, in the distance. Maybe it was a dream; maybe not. It was so long ago, he said."

I am taking this timeline to be shortly after 10 pm, which is the time that was previously established by JR, and by Burke as to what time he went off to bed.

Does anyone know if there was any followup on this by LE during interviews with JR or PR?

 

[DeeDee249]

According to PMPT, pg677, Schuler was interviewing Burke in June 1997 over three days. This is info I had not remembered reading before:
"Then Schuler asked what had happened after Burke went to bed. Did he have any dreams? Did he hear anything in his sleep? Burke said he had heard voices, in the distance. Maybe it was a dream; maybe not. It was so long ago, he said."

I am taking this timeline to be shortly after 10 pm, which is the time that was previously established by JR, and by Burke as to what time he went off to bed.

Does anyone know if there was any followup on this by LE during interviews with JR or PR?

I do not think the Rs spoke to LE about BR. One of the main reasons why they got him out of the house so quickly that morning was to keep him from being questioned or (just as important) OBSERVED. Patsy was quick to shut down ANY line of questions that involved her son.