Was Defendant Deprived of Her Right to Counsel?

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves

Was Defendant Denied Her Right to Counsel?

  • Yes, placing defendant before the television delayed personal notification by her attorney.

    Votes: 6 2.2%
  • No, as soon as her attorney arrived he was admitted to the common room.

    Votes: 114 41.3%
  • No, defendant went to the infirmary for medication. Surveillance is ever present in jail.

    Votes: 157 56.9%
  • Yes, defendant should have remained in her cell until her attorney arrived.

    Votes: 9 3.3%

  • Total voters
    276
  • Poll closed .
i didn't vote because i would have voted for

no, defendant was taken to infirmary to be told about a body being found near her home....

KC was told she was going to the infirmary....but KC did not know what for....KC asked for medication after she seen the new's on TV.....

she was seated in the common area first, waiting for a counselor to talk with her...this is the practice that the jail does when there is some *bad* news that the defendant is going to be told.....i think that LE took advantage of the situation to see how KC would react to the new's on the TV....to see if the reaction was any different from the time that new's broke out about the find at JBP with LP......

why should KC be treated any different then anyone else?

the jail is the one that tells of any *bad new's* not the defendant's counsel....JB knew that KC would freak out....that's why he wanted to be the one to tell her...

i dont remember JB being in such a hurry to be at the jail when the JBP park find was going on....hmmm?

imo to the extent that she claims she had nothing to do with Caylees demise, and refuses to talk.
They should do whatever it takes to get information, reaction and the bottom line truth.
I do not care that JB wanted to be the one to tell her....I do not care that there was a video running 24/7 that can fortunately capture her reactions.
I only care to get the truth in whatever way it comes.
She was not being questioned without her council there, they did not do anything different then they would in any other case.
JB and his team of unconscionable folks can all go F them self.
I voted NO she was not deprived of anything so far.
It is CAYLEE that is being deprived of the truth, respct.

To the dead we owe nothing but the truth. ~ Voltaire

So far nobody in this family has honored CAYLEE.

KC either you speak or millions of people will pray that you rot...
Yes there is much power in prayer. So start to get scared and not delusional.
 
You may have read the entire choice but you only posted the part about 'medication' and left out the second half about video surveillance. To me, that's parsing but I suppose reasonable minds may differ.

Your misunderstandings or misrepresentations of my post kind of prove my point. At no time did I state, suggest, or imply that KC requested meds PRIOR to going to the medical facility and how you inferred it is beyond me. Why, on the other hand, well... I suppose playing devil's advocate again, right? ;)

As for my Koolaid comment, I apologize for not being more clear but it didn't occur to me that you would take it personally. When I used the word "you" it was meant to refer to the universal "you" or "one should be careful" without naming anyone in particular. In point of fact, it was meant to imply which 'brand' of koolaid, out of respect for this entire community because I believe they will catch anyone drinking any brand. (I like metaphors!) :)

Jurors are required to look at the totality of the evidences and are allowed to draw certain inferences therefrom. So, once again, I disagree with you that WS community members, at least the 56% whose vote caused you concern, would be less than stellar jurists. In a WS poll, for example, one usually selects the option closest to what they feel, is my understanding. There are a limited number of options, none of which may accurately represent the exact reasoning of any individual poster. We do the best we can. It's not like we're in a court of law where the first thing we must do is determine KC innocent until the state proves her guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

As for your ETA: Due to the vote of 56% of those who voted, you expressed concern that anyone like them would be on a jury. I disagreed and explained why; that we as a community try very hard to get to the truth of matters and appear to be very successful at it, from my view. Yes, the devil's advocate can and does play an important role in this process, as I have posted many times. (Usually when complaining that someone is taking it a bit too far imo and seem to be heading for an "alien" defense.)

Since you asked for my opinion of you, personally, I'll give my opinion based solely on this last paragraph you wrote and say that it reminds me a great deal of the engineer that voted not guilty in the Specter case. It also reminds me a great deal of another case, don't recall the name, where there were two engineers on a jury and it was a drug case. The accused was clearly guilty, all 12 jurors agreed on that. However, the engineers argued incessantly about the weight of the narcotics, not that the difference would have made a difference in sentencing or anything, they were just that meticulous (anal retentive) and the jury ended up a hung jury. Those two got hung up on one irrelevant detail rather than the totality of the circumstances.

So, I answered you, will you answer me? Would you make a big stink in the jury room over some inconsequential details in the discovery? Or some nit picking inconsistencies between witnesses? And exactly which inconsistencies give you this grave concern?


Nowhere in any of my responses to you have I asked for your opinion of me personally, but it seems you were keen to share it anyway! :rolleyes:

I will not be making any lists of the inconsistencies/errors/misinformation/rumours/speculation/gossip pervading the facts and evidence of this case because this isn't the thread for it, but the 'sleuthing' sections of this forum and the 'mythbusters' thread contain many examples of what I mean and also show the dedicated hard work put in by several members to try and solve some of the many conundrums raised by the evidence.

I believe a lot of the 'truth' of this case has been uncovered by those efforts, and I guess I just find it frustrating when I still see inaccurate information being perpetuated through the threads even after all that effort and time has been expended in attempts to sort the wheat from the chaff.

I meant nothing derogatory towards any of the posters who selected the option we are discussing. I just wonder sometimes how much of the actual evidence is read and considered, and how much reliance is placed on other people's ideas, beliefs and speculation as if they were facts.

If we really want to sleuth this case then IMO it's important to work with accurate fact, and although I absolutely agree that reasonable inferences may be drawn from the evidence, we can't begin to make a reasonable inference unless we are clear as to what is accurate information and what is not.

I'll now stop taking this thread OT and go back to trying to find out what really happened in Hopespring Drive on June 16 2008.
 
Nowhere in any of my responses to you have I asked for your opinion of me personally, but it seems you were keen to share it anyway! :rolleyes:

It was this part of your post #173 that led me to believe you asked for my opinion: "Does that mean that I'm not part of the WS 'community' then, since some of my opinions and interpretations of the evidence are clearly different to how you suggest the 'community' does, or should, see things?"

I will not be making any lists of the inconsistencies/errors/misinformation/rumours/speculation/gossip pervading the facts and evidence of this case because this isn't the thread for it, but the 'sleuthing' sections of this forum and the 'mythbusters' thread contain many examples of what I mean and also show the dedicated hard work put in by several members to try and solve some of the many conundrums raised by the evidence.

My question asked which gave you such grave concern. We all have different levels of involvement in studying this case and not all of us have every detail at the tip of our fingers. Some visit the forum daily; others not so much. It doesn't make any set of users more intelligent or more able to objectively review evidence presented in a court of law than any other group, imo. Jurors will be expected to weigh the evidence presented in court, not have all of the facts embedded from forum usage.

I believe a lot of the 'truth' of this case has been uncovered by those efforts, and I guess I just find it frustrating when I still see inaccurate information being perpetuated through the threads even after all that effort and time has been expended in attempts to sort the wheat from the chaff.

Again, not everyone has been at this forum since the beginning of the case or has been able to follow every detail. That doesn't make them incapable of following along or learning the information, imo. When someone seems to have misunderstood something, imo, I try to help figure out which one of us may have gotten it wrong. Instead of being annoyed, I welcome those with fresher eyes and the opportunity to review certain facets of the case to make sure my memory hasn't failed or become confused with another issue. But that's just me.

I meant nothing derogatory towards any of the posters who selected the option we are discussing. I just wonder sometimes how much of the actual evidence is read and considered, and how much reliance is placed on other people's ideas, beliefs and speculation as if they were facts.

Oh, I guess I misunderstood your intent as derogatory when you wrote: "Looking at the poll results so far, I'm amazed at the number of respondents (over 56%) who believe that KC went to the medical area for medication. I do hope the jury she eventually gets will pay more attention to the available evidence! :deal: " in your post #155. See, I thought you were expressing concern about them or some like those 100+ members being on the jury. I do have confidence that most, if not all, WS members, including those 100+ will be readily able to discern fact from theory, speculation, ideas, etc. presented by both the prosecution and the defense.

If we really want to sleuth this case then IMO it's important to work with accurate fact, and although I absolutely agree that reasonable inferences may be drawn from the evidence, we can't begin to make a reasonable inference unless we are clear as to what is accurate information and what is not.

Again, this is why the community is so valuable, imo. Having each others backs; being able to correct info as it comes up or examine it to come to some sort of 'truth' until more info becomes available to incorporate into the ongoing theories; not to mention educating those new to the forum and/or the case causing frequent review of known facts. I also strongly believe that theorizing plays an important role in trying to fit together known evidence; parts of the discovery provided; etc.

I'll now stop taking this thread OT and go back to trying to find out what really happened in Hopespring Drive on June 16 2008.

I think we're all trying to figure out what happened with Caylee including the date(s) those things occurred. (Sorry, I am unaware of the 16th being confirmed as the factual date of Caylee's death, if that is your interest in that specific date.) Perhaps JBean's excellent sleuth/no chat and/or mythbusters threads would be better for those who have no patience with others who may have less of a grasp of the minutiae of the case, if there are any here who lack that patience, I mean. I'm certain there are some with less of a grasp of all the evidence than others because I'm one that's often amazed at the (sometimes almost supernatural) ability of some posters to rattle off facts and even links!

Red text by lin. Thanks for the discussion. I hope it has helped others as well as me.

PS: I hope it is clear that I didn't not give an opinion of you, personally. I specifically confined my remarks as a comment on the last paragraph of your post.

Also, I am very curious and should have asked why you specified June 16, 2008? Has there been something confirmed about this date? As I admitted, I don't have the same grasp of all of the details of the case and would appreciate it if you'd explain why this date. As far as I know, it's not even conclusive this is the last time Caylee was seen by anyone other than KC; we only have GA's word for that and iirc, there was a lot of discussion about his alleged recollection making it very questionable to me.
 
respectfully snipped/ my bold:
I see no comparison whatsoever between the report of small items of debris ('thought' to be bones) found by LP in JBP and the announcement that LE were at the scene of the confirmed discovery of an actual human child's skull and other human remains.


Good to know some don't see any comparison between both televised searches/finds. Evidently, BAEZ does and finds it threatening.

Isn't that what this motion to suppress is all about? IMO he's just 'reaching' in any way possible for excuses as to why he doesn't want the public and or a jury to see her incriminating 'different' demeanor on Dec. 11th.

In no way was she denied right to counsel on December 11, 2008.(first parag. post # 163)

In the Blanchard Park/LP search she was not engaged yet on Dec. 11th, she 'asked "what's going on?" and responded w/great drama. It was KC who tried to direct attention to Blanchard Park in her story about being thrown to the ground & being handed a script. We were all curious on pins & needles as we watched. One would think that televised event would have her complete attention, but it didn't because she knew Caylee wasn't there.

OT/
We have a dead baby here and we have a mother who is being protected by newly created Defense designer terms like 'ugly coping', which by the way, I find most interesting on the part of her attny. Sounds like an acknowledgment on his part that her activites & methods of searching for her child "in a backward sort of way" during those 31 days wouldn't make practical common sense to the 'average' person/juror.
 
I didn't vote in the poll as none of the choices represent what I think about the situation.

Imo ...

The trip to the infirmary was investigatory in nature. LE wanted to see KC's reaction to the news of her child's body being found. For whatever reason, they felt this was important to their investigation, It wasn't done to be cruel or mean. They may have lied or used procedure that wasn't standard in order to get her there. JB may have had to wait a little longer to see her. CO's may have seen it as mean or cruel. However, what they did in order to carry out this part of their investigation was legal.

I haven't read anything that indicates KC's rights were violated. What specifically did they do that violated her rights? This thread asks about KC being denied her lawyer. She saw him, didn't she? I don't think they're required to present him to her the instant he steps through the door. She could have been in the middle of taking a shower or, she could have been in the middle of an investigative procedure like taking a blood sample, DNA, fingerprints or even simple observation during a critical time. Is everything supposed to just stop because JB shows up?
 
Wonder why JB didn't high tail it to the jail the day LP's team found that bag of stuff. Maybe he knew (at that time) that Caylee wasn't there but in the woods---dumped out as garbage. Just thoughts runnin thru my mind. He sure ran to the jail when the camera was at the DUMP site---well, after he had a call with Geraldo R. and his on camera thang before he went into the jail.
 
Red text by lin. Thanks for the discussion. I hope it has helped others as well as me.

PS: I hope it is clear that I didn't not give an opinion of you, personally. I specifically confined my remarks as a comment on the last paragraph of your post.

Also, I am very curious and should have asked why you specified June 16, 2008? Has there been something confirmed about this date? As I admitted, I don't have the same grasp of all of the details of the case and would appreciate it if you'd explain why this date. As far as I know, it's not even conclusive this is the last time Caylee was seen by anyone other than KC; we only have GA's word for that and iirc, there was a lot of discussion about his alleged recollection making it very questionable to me.

I'm sorry, I should have made it clear that June 16 is the date that I am (currently) working on as the day that Caylee died, since no one has yet come forward with any evidence of seeing her alive after this date - so it's just an IMO at the moment.

As a last OT (promise :silenced:), I just want to say Lin that I take on board your comments about showing more patience/less frustration with posters who may not have had as much opportunity to study all the evidence. I only came across the case myself in late October last year, but I accept that many have joined later or have not had the time to follow everything, so if my comments offended anyone then I am truly sorry. :HBwhiteflag: :)
 
I'm sorry, I should have made it clear that June 16 is the date that I am (currently) working on as the day that Caylee died, since no one has yet come forward with any evidence of seeing her alive after this date - so it's just an IMO at the moment.

As a last OT (promise :silenced:), I just want to say Lin that I take on board your comments about showing more patience/less frustration with posters who may not have had as much opportunity to study all the evidence. I only came across the case myself in late October last year, but I accept that many have joined later or have not had the time to follow everything, so if my comments offended anyone then I am truly sorry. :HBwhiteflag: :)

lol & thanks for your kind reply. No need to wave the white flag; no harm done. (I hope) I also hope our discussion has not only helped us understand each other better but possibly illuminated some issues for other posters.

I'm sure no more than the 100+ and those that are very (ok, maybe 'over') protective of our fellow members were offended. Couldn't resist joking. :)

PS: Plus we've helped to keep the thread alive and it is an interesting poll, imo.
 
Wonder why JB didn't high tail it to the jail the day LP's team found that bag of stuff. Maybe he knew (at that time) that Caylee wasn't there but in the woods---dumped out as garbage. Just thoughts runnin thru my mind. He sure ran to the jail when the camera was at the DUMP site---well, after he had a call with Geraldo R. and his on camera thang before he went into the jail.

Exactly -- all around different when JBP was the much more likely place, if there was any truth to her story.
 
respectfully snipped/ my bold:


Good to know some don't see any comparison between both televised searches/finds. Evidently, BAEZ does and finds it threatening.

Isn't that what this motion to suppress is all about? IMO he's just 'reaching' in any way possible for excuses as to why he doesn't want the public and or a jury to see her incriminating 'different' demeanor on Dec. 11th.

In no way was she denied right to counsel on December 11, 2008.(first parag. post # 163)

In the Blanchard Park/LP search she was not engaged yet on Dec. 11th, she 'asked "what's going on?" and responded w/great drama. It was KC who tried to direct attention to Blanchard Park in her story about being thrown to the ground & being handed a script. We were all curious on pins & needles as we watched. One would think that televised event would have her complete attention, but it didn't because she knew Caylee wasn't there.

OT/
We have a dead baby here and we have a mother who is being protected by newly created Defense designer terms like 'ugly coping', which by the way, I find most interesting on the part of her attny. Sounds like an acknowledgment on his part that her activites & methods of searching for her child "in a backward sort of way" during those 31 days wouldn't make practical common sense to the 'average' person/juror.

Yes, yes and yes! ITA Well done, as always.

PS: I think the prosecutor can just about get a conviction with a few sentences:

"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury... 31 days... partying her ugly coping tail off... nothing but lies to LE." That ought to do it, don't you think? About a five minute presentation from the prosecution? I know that's what did it for me! (joking, I know even I'd need more if sitting in the jury.)
 
Well...JB just filed another motion to delay the hearing on the "tape". Now, I'm REALLY curious what the fuss is all about.
 
Angel Who Cares just posted this:
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84994"]2009.06.08 Today's Current News - ***NO DISCUSSIONS HERE PLEASE *** - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

Casey Anthony: Defense team decries state's 'orchestrated' leaks
posted by halboedeker on Jun 8, 2009 6:54:27 PM
<snipped>
Casey Anthony's defense team has hit back hard at the state. The defense team is accusing the state of misconduct in leaking information to the media.

Or ask WKMG-Channel 6's Mike DeForest put it: "The defense claims those leaks have been orchestrated to make Casey look bad and in the process jeopardize her right to a free trial."

The defense team lays out the misconduct allegations in a motion to block the release of a jail video showing Casey Anthony's reactions to the discovery of Caylee's remains. Anthony is charged with the first-degree murder of her young daughter.

In the papers filed with the court, the defense team bemoans "a continued and consistent pattern of leaks, distortions and misconduct on the part of Orange County and the state."

In analysis, DeForest said the motion reflected the influence of new defense team member Andrea Lyon.

Article:
http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/ent...ted-leaks.html
 
What in the World is going on in this case? Are any of the rest of you gittin scared by all this JB crap?
 
What in the World is going on in this case? Are any of the rest of you gittin scared by all this JB crap?

Yes I am. As I'm not an attorney I can only assume he is attempting some strange stratedgy to make Casey look like a victim??? wth sounds like the same as what the A's are doing. He really needs to take a look at all the videos of what he's been saying publically throughout this. jmo
 
I sure wished a lawyer would pop in and reassure us on this.
 
When is the BAR going to take care of this JB?

Also--CA/GA weren't charged with chasing those women the other night. YOU KNOW WHAT? If that was me---they would put me under the jail. How can they keep goin on like this. What do they have to do to go to jail? Kill somebody?
 
What in the World is going on in this case? Are any of the rest of you gittin scared by all this JB crap?

Nope - the defense team are desperate.

They'd need to show that
1. leaks happened (not media briefings or Sunshine law discovery)
2. It was LE wot dunnit.

This case has it's share of media *advertiser censored*, C and G Anthony, L Padilla, J Baez, B Conway etc, I haven't seen LE on Nancy Grace, Faux News, Greta, Geraldo, GMA, Larry King (endless list). No, not worried at all.
 
What in the World is going on in this case? Are any of the rest of you gittin scared by all this JB crap?

Yeah in a way it does. Usually once they got the prosecution to agree that they wouldn't use the tape in the trial, the defense would back off and hope that most people would forget about what was said about the Casey notification.

But JB isn't backing off. Instead JB is pushing, really pushing that tape and it is like he wants to make sure the tape stays in everyone's mind.

JB keeps pushing the "prosecution leaks" but in truth, I have seen other cases with more comments and info from the prosecution than in this case. And it hasn't changed the trial. If JB really thought there was grounds for prosecution misconduct, he wouldn't be fighting it in the media, he would be taking it before the bar. Notice he hasn't filed with the bar???

I still think that he is trying to gain exclusive ownership of that tape for financial reasons.
 
Angel Who Cares just posted this:
2009.06.08 Today's Current News - ***NO DISCUSSIONS HERE PLEASE *** - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Casey Anthony: Defense team decries state's 'orchestrated' leaks
posted by halboedeker on Jun 8, 2009 6:54:27 PM
<snipped>
Casey Anthony's defense team has hit back hard at the state. The defense team is accusing the state of misconduct in leaking information to the media.

Or ask WKMG-Channel 6's Mike DeForest put it: "The defense claims those leaks have been orchestrated to make Casey look bad and in the process jeopardize her right to a free trial."

The defense team lays out the misconduct allegations in a motion to block the release of a jail video showing Casey Anthony's reactions to the discovery of Caylee's remains. Anthony is charged with the first-degree murder of her young daughter.

In the papers filed with the court, the defense team bemoans "a continued and consistent pattern of leaks, distortions and misconduct on the part of Orange County and the state."

In analysis, DeForest said the motion reflected the influence of new defense team member Andrea Lyon.

Article:
http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/ent...ted-leaks.html

Could somebody please explain to me just WHY KC deserves a free trial? I'll go for FAIR, but what the heck is this "FREE" trial carp-o-la?
:slap:
 

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
157
Guests online
1,961
Total visitors
2,118

Forum statistics

Threads
601,398
Messages
18,124,173
Members
231,041
Latest member
bridgetraiann
Back
Top