Was Defendant Deprived of Her Right to Counsel?

[lin]

Have you actually read the latest depos by the 2 prison personnel? KC was not taken to the medical facility because she asked for medication. She was told that someone from mental health wanted to see her when in fact the sole purpose of the exercise was so that she could be placed in front of a TV for her reactions to the news to be recorded, on the special instructions of LE. The medical area was apparently chosen for this purpose because it's the only area in which a TV is constantly switched on. There is also no evidence as to what she was listening to on her radio when BR went to collect her - he states that he doesn't know what it was.

As to the 'bag of bones' found in JBP, if I had a missing child and a couple of twig/stick-like objects and one or two other small objects were found by searchers, I would not immediately freak out and fear that my child had been found. There's a whole world of difference between the possible significance of a find of small objects that 'might be' bones, and the discovery of the actual skull of a human child!

See, that's where I'm a bit different --- if my child was kidnapped from me at JBP and then someone put those pieces together and claimed to find some children's toys and small bones near where I was assaulted, I'd fear the worst. What I wouldn't do is assume that it was my child miles away, near my home, on a dead end street that mostly only those in the neighborhood/school know about.

ETA: Of course, that assumes that the one who kidnapped my child was from NY and Miami, not an elementary school classmate of mine that may know of the area.

 

[Manny]

Have you actually read the latest depos by the 2 jail personnel? KC was not taken to the medical facility because she asked for medication. She was told that someone from mental health wanted to see her when in fact the sole purpose of the exercise was so that she could be placed in front of a TV for her reactions to the news to be recorded, on the special instructions of LE. The medical area was apparently chosen for this purpose because it's the only area in which a TV is constantly switched on. There is also no evidence as to what she was listening to on her radio when BR went to collect her - he states that he doesn't know what it was.

As to the 'bag of bones' found in JBP, if I had a missing child and a couple of twig/stick-like objects and one or two other small objects were found by searchers, I would not immediately freak out and fear that my child had been found. There's a whole world of difference between the possible significance of a find of small objects that 'might be' bones, and the discovery of the actual skull of a human child! Also we don't know how much of the coverage of the JBP incident KC was actually privy to, but she certainly didn't experience the added hype and hysteria producing effect of Murt's live coverage and so at best she would have only seen divers going in or out of the water and rummaging through a very small pile of 'suspicious' debris. Should she really have been expected to collapse in horror at the sight of that?

Plus the fact that the tape was edited. It does not bring anyone closer to the truth and would only foul up the jury pool. They will be forced to move this trial. Getting part of a picture does not help anyone. Not the SA, not the prisoner.
I had the same impression of the park "findings' I felt nothing, at some level I knew it wouldn't bring any answers. I didn't kill anyone either. ETA I also cried when I heard about the finding so near the house. I cried before they announced anything. All these things mean nothing.

 

[kageykaren]

These "things" must mean something? This a homocide case not someones hippa laws infringed on, in my humble opinion. Considering kC affect has been as flat as her car tires, any emotion showed at any interval of finding a possible Caylee would be of the ut most concern for either side of Lady Justice. I have my sons buddy a lip reader and public school teacher on speed dial if this video is released because we have seen what happens with kC gestures and verbal responces when she hears things she wishes not to address or it interrupts the way she would like for us to think. I have a feeling that she mouthed a few words that could be very interesting. Why all the concern over this one moment of KC life incarcerated is beyond me. KC by all accounts hasn't been sickened by Caylee's abscense up till this point so why all the drama at the time of discovery of Caylee? Maybe some of the people protesting in honoe of kC should find out from Ms.L how they can volunteer in helping the fight for prisoner rights. KC future incarceration in the Federal prison may need some of these volunteers.

 

[jeepgirlva]

I waited until I had more information to vote in this poll. After reading TU's depo (haven't had a chance to read BR's yet), I don't think she was denied counsel, but I'm not necessarily sure they went about things the right way but denied counsel, nope.

As they were taking her to medical, KC states she had already heard that something was going on and seemed to indicate that she wanted to watch tv. She sees the news and asks for JB. I doesn't sound like they questioned her in any way, so there wouldn't be any attorney-client violations there.

Now, the watching tv incident started at around 11:35, that's when they got her from her cell. I'm not sure how long it takes to get to medical but I'll say 5 mins which puts her there at about 11:40 and she is taken to the classroom (to wait for JB) around 12. Within a few mins TU asks if JB has arrived yet and is told he is just signing in, lets say that 12:10.

So if JB was leaving his office when TU got the call to take KC to medical (around 11:30), accourding to mapquest it would take him roughly 30 mins to get to the jail. He gets there at around 12. He had to sign in at the front, go through security, walk the roughly 5 mins to the next facility and then sign in there, and then walk to the classroom. From the sound of it, it could take (depending on how long the wait is at security, etc) up to 15-20mins to go through the process. Then if you add how much JB likes to talk, I think you need to add a few mins at each stop for him to chat along the way. That makes the trip 25-30mins. TU says he got to the room between 12:15-12:30.

JB is making it sound like he was either told to wait or was blocked in some way from seeing KC. I just don't see it. The timeline is pretty much exact on how long it would take him to drive there, sign in, and get to Kc.

I would think there should be proof when JB entered the building signed in or whatever he has to do...... Would the jail have video of his arrival then the time he signed in and time when he actually was with KC which should prove if she was denied or not and shut JB up once and for all...

 

[Searchfortruth]

I think a report on Casey's demeanor, after being taken back to her cell and during that week up until the DNA match to Caylee is made, would be interesting as well. If that had been me and I didn't know if this was my child, the wait for news would be unbearable...I am guessing Casey wouldn't have displayed severe signs of anxiousness, worry, because she knew it was Caylee as soon as she saw it on the news. Could the Corrections Officers testify as to her demeanor during that week, I wonder ?

 

[jeepgirlva]

Is there a video of her(kc's) reaction to the Blanchard Park search? Could both of these videos be shown in court say side by side to show the difference in her reactions?

 

[nursebeeme]

1. Yes, the strategem of putting defendant in front of the television news delayed the personal notification from her attorney.

2. As soon as her attorney arrived, he was admitted to the common room at the infirmary. There was no attempt to deprive her of counsel.

3. Defendant should not have been surveilled until her attorney was present.

4. Defendant went to the infirmary for medication; surveillance cameras are ever present in the jail. Nothing unexpected occurred.

GREAT POLL TUBA! I voted for 2 and 3. The whole prison is on camera... once her atty arrived they met with one another.

The reason for the hoopla surrounding her reaction, in my opinion, is how damning it is to her. She was like an onion with all the layers peeled back. The defense sure is very anxious for this NOT to be released..

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

Do you recall why you got so upset? Could it possibly have had something to do with the proximity to the A home? Possibly also factored in the odds that mothers who kill usually leave the child near home?

Now, if you were the mother and you knew you didn't do it, why would you assume it was your child and react that way? Especially as the last place you saw your child was miles away?

Thank you, lin, you've given me a new fact to consider in my thought process ~ and it sure does help tip the scale.

 

[amethyst221]

I usually read the whole thread before posting and didn't this time (did read a lot, though), so sorry in advance if that makes my opinion uninformed. I did read the depositions and have followed the case forever. This issue just confuses me, or the vast overstatement and complication of it by the defense does. The right to counsel doesn't ensure that if there is any bad news to be delivered to you, your lawyer must do it, IMO. Or, when you are not being questioned but merely observed, a delay of minutes in getting counsel into your presence so he might console you is an egregious violation. She's in jail. I get it why JB wants to be there. He's afraid she might say something she ought not say while she's in a volatile state. He doesn't want anyone to see how she reacted once he was there because . . . . ? I can only guess it isn't pretty somehow for one or both of them, or at least tips in that direction. Even if not, the defense has now persuaded a substantial portion of the followers of this case that he wants to hide something very incriminating.

 

[jeepgirlva]

Do you recall why you got so upset? Could it possibly have had something to do with the proximity to the A home? Possibly also factored in the odds that mothers who kill usually leave the child near home?

Now, if you were the mother and you knew you didn't do it, why would you assume it was your child and react that way? Especially as the last place you saw your child was miles away?

If they put her on the stand ...

 

[Gma Kat]

I don't have a problem with LE playing dirty to get to the truth. She wasn't denied counsel, but she was set up. Innocent or guilty I don't care what LE did if they were just trying to get to the truth somehow. It's not like she started confessing at the coverage she viewed - but she did do exactly what they hoped, her body language and subconcious kicked into overdrive and nearly gave her a breakdown.............I say HIGH-5! I have a feeling if I didn't have so much animosity towards KC that perhaps I would feel more sympathy over her being set up - but I don't. I just hope that something productive comes out of all of this and this doesn't just turn into another piece of minusha (sp?) to cloud up this case.

 

[shgrbkr]

Common sense. JB has not a leg to stand on--period. I do not believe that the jail has any obligation to summon an attorney to give information publicized on the news to a client....remember that on Dec. 11, it was simply information, not necessarily "bad news." It became "bad news" when KC saw the TV because SHE knew it was bad. For her.

What's the difference between doing this and having AL wear a wire for his meeting with LA? This meaning I agree with the above post.

 

[Tuba]

Set up to take a fall, to give yourself away or to learn what everyone not related to Caylee was hearing and seeing on television? Legally, the mother was entitled to this news. At the time of earlier search discoveries, she was also brought before the box. It is not a set up. If you were the mother, wouldn't you want to be given access to this television news? I would! Individual tubes are a luxury not installed in the jail cells but even inside ones cell there is no privacy and no right to privacy. What there is is constant surveillance and December 11 was not a departure from that policy. Rave on if you expect privacy at Orange County Jail.

 

[Devon]

Set up to take a fall, to give yourself away or to learn what everyone not related to Caylee was hearing and seeing on television? Legally, the mother was entitled to this news. At the time of earlier search discoveries, she was also brought before the box. It is not a set up. If you were the mother, wouldn't you want to be given access to this television news? I would! Individual tubes are a luxury not installed in the jail cells but even inside ones cell there is no privacy and no right to privacy. What there is is constant surveillance and December 11 was not a departure from that policy. Rave on if you expect privacy at Orange County Jail.

Bolded by me.

What earlier search discoveries are you referring to? If it's the LP (self-confessed 'media *advertiser censored*') fiasco at JBP, she was not 'brought before the box' for that. She was already in the jail dayroom when the news of the 'discovery' was broadcast, and as soon as the guards saw what was on, they immediately made her go back to her cell, which she allegedly did without comment. There has been no information about what, or how much, she actually saw, but even if she had no knowledge of Caylee's death at that point (which she did IMO), I doubt whether she would have freaked out over a 'find', by a showman, of a small collection of miscellaneous debris that had not been examined by anyone qualified to tell a bone from a button or a twig!

http://www.wesh.com/news/17970481/detail.html

 

[Devon]

Looking at the poll results so far, I'm amazed at the number of respondents (over 56%) who believe that KC went to the medical area for medication. I do hope the jury she eventually gets will pay more attention to the available evidence! :deal:

 

[Tuba]

There were many searches and finds last autumn, none successful but all covered by television in this country. The prisoner saw some of that in the dayroom and she has seen some tapes, courtesy of her attorney. In the jail, you are taken or escorted to locations, you don't stroll at large.

 

[SoSueMe]

I have a hard time understanding why any of this is an issue. I sure had nothing to do with the murder but my reaction to child's bones discovered only houses away from the Anthony home was very, very different than my reaction to the goings-on at JBP. I bet almost all of us that post here would admit the same. . . So why wouldn't Casey's reactions be different, too?

...

[snipped]

Frankly, I don't think KC's actions should have been different with the JB Park search because supposedly, that is where she left her daughter (at least in one version of her story). The two different reactions tell me she knew where they would find the body.

I'm really concerned about this video. If there is any chance that KC's rights were violated, be it civil rights, HIPAA, whatever, I hope they don't release the tape. If I were the prosecution, I wouldn't want to take that risk.

 

[Devon]

There were many searches and finds last autumn, none successful but all covered by television in this country. The prisoner saw some of that in the dayroom and she has seen some tapes, courtesy of her attorney. In the jail, you are taken or escorted to locations, you don't stroll at large.

Do you have links to this information please? I haven't seen any reports of KC having been taken to watch anything else, or of being provided with taped media reports on searches/finds. I do recall her mentioning in one of her jail visits that she had seen some of what NG has had to say, but I don't think that related to the searches.

TIA

 

[FifthEssence]

Bolded by me.

What earlier search discoveries are you referring to? If it's the LP (self-confessed 'media *advertiser censored*') fiasco at JBP, she was not 'brought before the box' for that. She was already in the jail dayroom when the news of the 'discovery' was broadcast, and as soon as the guards saw what was on, they immediately made her go back to her cell, which she allegedly did without comment. There has been no information about what, or how much, she actually saw, but even if she had no knowledge of Caylee's death at that point (which she did IMO), I doubt whether she would have freaked out over a 'find', by a showman, of a small collection of miscellaneous debris that had not been examined by anyone qualified to tell a bone from a button or a twig!

http://www.wesh.com/news/17970481/detail.html

It is my understanding SHE casually turned herself away from the TV and walked away as LP was doing the search in Blanchard Park. No show of emotion was reported. IMO, she knew her baby would not be found there, regardless if it was LP or Superman heading the search.

Your statement about jail personnel telling her she had to leave the area is a first for me. I do recall reports noting,she left the area by her own choice.
Please post a reference to your claim she was TOLD to leave the area.

If I am wrong, I will be happy to acknowledge my error.

 

[Devon]

It is my understanding SHE casually turned herself away from the TV and walked away as LP was doing the search in Blanchard Park. No show of emotion was reported. IMO, she knew her baby would not be found there, regardless if it was LP or Superman heading the search.

Your statement about jail personnel telling her she had to leave the area is a first for me. I do recall reports noting,she left the area by her own choice.
Please post a reference to your claim she was TOLD to leave the area.

If I am wrong, I will be happy to acknowledge my error.

The link to the relevant news report was included in my post. I haven't seen any version that said she just walked away of her own accord.