Was Defendant Deprived of Her Right to Counsel?

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves

Was Defendant Denied Her Right to Counsel?

  • Yes, placing defendant before the television delayed personal notification by her attorney.

    Votes: 6 2.2%
  • No, as soon as her attorney arrived he was admitted to the common room.

    Votes: 114 41.3%
  • No, defendant went to the infirmary for medication. Surveillance is ever present in jail.

    Votes: 157 56.9%
  • Yes, defendant should have remained in her cell until her attorney arrived.

    Votes: 9 3.3%

  • Total voters
    276
  • Poll closed .
Do you have links to this information please? I haven't seen any reports of KC having been taken to watch anything else, or of being provided with taped media reports on searches/finds. I do recall her mentioning in one of her jail visits that she had seen some of what NG has had to say, but I don't think that related to the searches.

TIA

KC is granted one hour daily outside her cell where she is allowed to go shower, the TV area, read, whatever. No one TOOK HER TO WATCH anything. If the news happen to be on the TV when she entered that common area, she had the opportunity to watch it or walk away.

It is the duty of her attorney to keep her informed of all actvities that pertain to her case, so it would be hard to believe Baez did not keep her on top of things.

(she and all other inmates are always within an eyeshot of the security personnel & surveillance cameras)
 
It is my understanding SHE casually turned herself away from the TV and walked away as LP was doing the search in Blanchard Park. No show of emotion was reported. IMO, she knew her baby would not be found there, regardless if it was LP or Superman heading the search.

Your statement about jail personnel telling her she had to leave the area is a first for me. I do recall reports noting,she left the area by her own choice.
Please post a reference to your claim she was TOLD to leave the area.

If I am wrong, I will be happy to acknowledge my error.



I see that. I honestly do not recall they asked her to leave, but then again, probably for her own protection .
 
Regarding the question in this poll:

When her attny finally arrived following his early morning court date, he was admitted after the customary signing in procedures he was most familiar with, taken to an area where she & he could have the privacy the law requires. She wasn't denied anything.

Knowing she had a radio in her cell, I'm fairly sure everyone knew she had already 'heard' the news with her own ears. Because of the weight of this news and them not knowing how she would respond, including possibly trying to hurt herself, they wanted her to go to the Infirmary area thinking of her welfare should she require medication or psych counseling. WHAT WRONG WITH THAT?!?
KC said, "Something is going on. I want to know what it's about." That was when Richardson arrived at the cell to get her.

Special treatment because she's "KC", is not required or fair. The TV runs everyday all day and so do the Security cameras in the same common area. I don't know why anyone would think it should be any different then any other day in terms of cameras, etc.

When she asked for medication, it was dispensed. She's the one who asked for it in the common area before her attny arrived. Baez can cross off his claim that the HIPAA law was violated.

No laws were violated. Unless of course, someone like Baez would have preferred to take the chance of leaving her in her cell until he arrived giving her time to hurt herself.
Every consideration was extended to KC .
 
I see that. I honestly do not recall they asked her to leave, but then again, probably for her own protection .
Point is,she did see part of it,didn't hyperventilate or ask for medications.She didn't seem upset at all,from the reports.That's in stark contrast to the reaction of the body found near her home.
IIRC there were other inmates nearby when the JBP search was on the jail tv.Were there any other inmates in the room when they let KC watch it during the real discovery of Caylee's body?
That could be the difference in the two scenarios.Asking her to return to her cell could have been for her protection,as you said.
 
KC is granted one hour daily outside her cell where she is allowed to go shower, the TV area, read, whatever. No one TOOK HER TO WATCH anything. If the news happen to be on the TV when she entered that common area, she had the opportunity to watch it or walk away.

It is the duty of her attorney to keep her informed of all actvities that pertain to her case, so it would be hard to believe Baez did not keep her on top of things.

(she and all other inmates are always within an eyeshot of the security personnel & surveillance cameras)

Right, but in Tuba's last 2 posts, she has stated that KC was placed before the TV when other searches/finds were being reported and that she saw some reports in the dayroom and others via tapes courtesy of JB so I was just curious to know where she got this info. from as I hadn't seen it. As far as I'm aware there have been no reports of this happening apart from the LE orchestrated event in the medical area on December 11.
 
Right, but in Tuba's last 2 posts, she has stated that KC was placed before the TV when other searches/finds were being reported and that she saw some reports in the dayroom and others via tapes courtesy of JB so I was just curious to know where she got this info. from as I hadn't seen it. As far as I'm aware there have been no reports of this happening apart from the LE orchestrated event in the medical area on December 11.


The post you are quoting from, said she was brought before the box. If KC wants to go to watch TV during her one hour period outside her cell, she has to be brought there. You don't walk freely inside a jail. You're accompanied by security personnel.
 
Point is,she did see part of it,didn't hyperventilate or ask for medications.She didn't seem upset at all,from the reports.That's in stark contrast to the reaction of the body found near her home.
IIRC there were other inmates nearby when the JBP search was on the jail tv.Were there any other inmates in the room when they let KC watch it during the real discovery of Caylee's body?
That could be the difference in the two scenarios.Asking her to return to her cell could have been for her protection,as you said.

KC is in protective custody and is kept separate from all other inmates at all times - so she wouldn't need to be returned to her cell for protection.

I see no comparison whatsoever between the report of small items of debris ('thought' to be bones) found by LP in JBP and the announcement that LE were at the scene of the confirmed discovery of an actual human child's skull and other human remains.
 
The post you are quoting from, said she was brought before the box. If KC wants to go to watch TV during her one hour period outside her cell, she has to be brought there. You don't walk freely inside a jail. You're accompanied by security personnel.

Maybe I misinterpreted the OP's meaning then, but IMO 'brought before the box' implies a purposeful act.
 
It would be a violation of her rights to make it public, but in all probability her blood pressure was taken at that time; it is pretty much medical procedure to take a person's blood pressure before a sedative is administered. Making it public knowledge whether it was bouncing off the chart in either direction would have been a serious error. Baez would find something to whine about no matter what the circumstances.
 
Looking at the poll results so far, I'm amazed at the number of respondents (over 56%) who believe that KC went to the medical area for medication. I do hope the jury she eventually gets will pay more attention to the available evidence! :deal:

Wow, what a slap! to the WS community. I suppose you didn't see or didn't want to see the 2nd half of that choice, that surveillance is ever present in the jail, which is may likely be part of the reason that the 56% selected it. Careful of which koolaid you drink while posting here. Someone is bound to catch it. I, for one, hope very much that the jury is peopled with those like our community that pay attention to the evidence and see it for what it's worth. Such as that poll choice being the only one that mentioned video is ever present and it was the only one referencing 'medical care' (which may have been a better choice of words for the poll design) which would have been appropriate under the circumstances.

See, here at WS, we look at the totality of things, such as the purpose of the poll, in this instance. 'Was KC deprived of her right to counsel?' Puts all of the choices in a different context, doesn't it? Those so voting may have also factored in reports that KC requested meds. But go ahead and parse away. No harm done; but I'll be looking to this community to get to the truth of matters and certainly hope the jury has some members with such a grasp for the evidence as is found here.
 
Bolded by me.

What earlier search discoveries are you referring to? If it's the LP (self-confessed 'media *advertiser censored*') fiasco at JBP, she was not 'brought before the box' for that. She was already in the jail dayroom when the news of the 'discovery' was broadcast, and as soon as the guards saw what was on, they immediately made her go back to her cell, which she allegedly did without comment. There has been no information about what, or how much, she actually saw, but even if she had no knowledge of Caylee's death at that point (which she did IMO), I doubt whether she would have freaked out over a 'find', by a showman, of a small collection of miscellaneous debris that had not been examined by anyone qualified to tell a bone from a button or a twig!

http://www.wesh.com/news/17970481/detail.html

Why would a find by a documented successful bounty hunter with a law degree and with the wherewithal to bond her out of jail mean less because he's a "showman?" Don't forget LP's find was where she supposedly last saw her daughter and would be a logical place to find a body, if that actually happened. Please see my response to your post earlier in the thread: [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3832583&postcount=141"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Was Defendant Deprived of Her Right to Counsel?[/ame]
 
Common sense. JB has not a leg to stand on--period. I do not believe that the jail has any obligation to summon an attorney to give information publicized on the news to a client....remember that on Dec. 11, it was simply information, not necessarily "bad news." It became "bad news" when KC saw the TV because SHE knew it was bad. For her.

What's the difference between doing this and having AL wear a wire for his meeting with LA? This meaning I agree with the above post.

Yes, and they are allowed to lie.
 
Wow, what a slap! to the WS community. I suppose you didn't see or didn't want to see the 2nd half of that choice, that surveillance is ever present in the jail, which is may likely be part of the reason that the 56% selected it. Careful of which koolaid you drink while posting here. Someone is bound to catch it. I, for one, hope very much that the jury is peopled with those like our community that pay attention to the evidence and see it for what it's worth. Such as that poll choice being the only one that mentioned video is ever present and it was the only one referencing 'medical care' (which may have been a better choice of words for the poll design) which would have been appropriate under the circumstances.

See, here at WS, we look at the totality of things, such as the purpose of the poll, in this instance. 'Was KC deprived of her right to counsel?' Puts all of the choices in a different context, doesn't it? Those so voting may have also factored in reports that KC requested meds. But go ahead and parse away. No harm done; but I'll be looking to this community to get to the truth of matters and certainly hope the jury has some members with such a grasp for the evidence as is found here.

I'm not doing any parsing - I am reading that choice as one whole, i.e KC asked for medication and so was taken to the medical area, where cameras are always present. I'm not sure the OP meant this to be an 'either/or' option, but if so, maybe it should be split into two separate questions for clarity.

Your comment that some of those members who chose this option may have factored in reports that KC asked for medication demonstrates the point I was making, since the evidence shows that she did not ask for any medication until after she was placed in front of the TV.

I am most certainly not drinking any Koolaid. I read every piece of evidence - carefully, thoroughly and objectively. I don't own any rose-coloured specs, but neither do I own any blinkers/blinders. The problem with looking at the totality of evidence is that currently that 'totality' includes inconsistencies, errors, misconceptions, misinformation, media spin, speculation, rumour, hype, gossip etc. Strange as it may seem, I'm here at WS to try and learn the truth of this tragic case too, and I certainly do hope that the jury can put aside any of this that they've been privy to and concentrate only on accurate facts and evidence.

ETA. The context of your post suggests that the 'WS community' sees the evidence as it really is, that you will be looking to that 'community' to get to the truth of matters, and that you hope the jury is made up of people like those in the 'community'. Does that mean that I'm not part of the WS 'community' then, since some of my opinions and interpretations of the evidence are clearly different to how you suggest the 'community' does, or should, see things?
 
Does anyone else remember when Casey told her mother in one of the interviews/visits that she could see a part of a tv screen from her cell? I tend to believe that in hearing the other inmates making comments about the find that the jail staff decided to take her to see this first hand. I also tend to believe the deputy who said she said that she wanted to find out what was going on and went willingly if not eagerly to the medical unit to watch. After all she is used to "special treatment" by now because of the security issues with her. I also understand that she didn't ask for medication until after she had watched the find on tv. So anything after she asked for medical attention should be held back as privileged in my opinion as medical treatment. Anybody else remember that she could see part of a tv screen from her cell? I think she told her mother she could see a part of Nancy Grace.
 
Does anyone else remember when Casey told her mother in one of the interviews/visits that she could see a part of a tv screen from her cell? I tend to believe that in hearing the other inmates making comments about the find that the jail staff decided to take her to see this first hand. I also tend to believe the deputy who said she said that she wanted to find out what was going on and went willingly if not eagerly to the medical unit to watch. After all she is used to "special treatment" by now because of the security issues with her. I also understand that she didn't ask for medication until after she had watched the find on tv. So anything after she asked for medical attention should be held back as privileged in my opinion as medical treatment. Anybody else remember that she could see part of a tv screen from her cell? I think she told her mother she could see a part of Nancy Grace.

I do remember when first arrested, Casey told her mother that she could see part of a TV screen. I don' t know if that is the same cell that she wound up in. The Nancy G Video's were supplied by Baez, so that Casey could watch the media spin.
 
I'm not doing any parsing - I am reading that choice as one whole, i.e KC asked for medication and so was taken to the medical area, where cameras are always present. I'm not sure the OP meant this to be an 'either/or' option, but if so, maybe it should be split into two separate questions for clarity.

Your comment that some of those members who chose this option may have factored in reports that KC asked for medication demonstrates the point I was making, since the evidence shows that she did not ask for any medication until after she was placed in front of the TV.

I am most certainly not drinking any Koolaid. I read every piece of evidence - carefully, thoroughly and objectively. I don't own any rose-coloured specs, but neither do I own any blinkers/blinders. The problem with looking at the totality of evidence is that currently that 'totality' includes inconsistencies, errors, misconceptions, misinformation, media spin, speculation, rumour, hype, gossip etc. Strange as it may seem, I'm here at WS to try and learn the truth of this tragic case too, and I certainly do hope that the jury can put aside any of this that they've been privy to and concentrate only on accurate facts and evidence.

ETA. The context of your post suggests that the 'WS community' sees the evidence as it really is, that you will be looking to that 'community' to get to the truth of matters, and that you hope the jury is made up of people like those in the 'community'. Does that mean that I'm not part of the WS 'community' then, since some of my opinions and interpretations of the evidence are clearly different to how you suggest the 'community' does, or should, see things?

You may have read the entire choice but you only posted the part about 'medication' and left out the second half about video surveillance. To me, that's parsing but I suppose reasonable minds may differ.

Your misunderstandings or misrepresentations of my post kind of prove my point. At no time did I state, suggest, or imply that KC requested meds PRIOR to going to the medical facility and how you inferred it is beyond me. Why, on the other hand, well... I suppose playing devil's advocate again, right? ;)

As for my Koolaid comment, I apologize for not being more clear but it didn't occur to me that you would take it personally. When I used the word "you" it was meant to refer to the universal "you" or "one should be careful" without naming anyone in particular. In point of fact, it was meant to imply which 'brand' of koolaid, out of respect for this entire community because I believe they will catch anyone drinking any brand. (I like metaphors!) :)

Jurors are required to look at the totality of the evidences and are allowed to draw certain inferences therefrom. So, once again, I disagree with you that WS community members, at least the 56% whose vote caused you concern, would be less than stellar jurists. In a WS poll, for example, one usually selects the option closest to what they feel, is my understanding. There are a limited number of options, none of which may accurately represent the exact reasoning of any individual poster. We do the best we can. It's not like we're in a court of law where the first thing we must do is determine KC innocent until the state proves her guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

As for your ETA: Due to the vote of 56% of those who voted, you expressed concern that anyone like them would be on a jury. I disagreed and explained why; that we as a community try very hard to get to the truth of matters and appear to be very successful at it, from my view. Yes, the devil's advocate can and does play an important role in this process, as I have posted many times. (Usually when complaining that someone is taking it a bit too far imo and seem to be heading for an "alien" defense.)

Since you asked for my opinion of you, personally, I'll give my opinion based solely on this last paragraph you wrote and say that it reminds me a great deal of the engineer that voted not guilty in the Specter case. It also reminds me a great deal of another case, don't recall the name, where there were two engineers on a jury and it was a drug case. The accused was clearly guilty, all 12 jurors agreed on that. However, the engineers argued incessantly about the weight of the narcotics, not that the difference would have made a difference in sentencing or anything, they were just that meticulous (anal retentive) and the jury ended up a hung jury. Those two got hung up on one irrelevant detail rather than the totality of the circumstances.

So, I answered you, will you answer me? Would you make a big stink in the jury room over some inconsequential details in the discovery? Or some nit picking inconsistencies between witnesses? And exactly which inconsistencies give you this grave concern?
 
Does anyone else remember when Casey told her mother in one of the interviews/visits that she could see a part of a tv screen from her cell? I tend to believe that in hearing the other inmates making comments about the find that the jail staff decided to take her to see this first hand. I also tend to believe the deputy who said she said that she wanted to find out what was going on and went willingly if not eagerly to the medical unit to watch. After all she is used to "special treatment" by now because of the security issues with her. I also understand that she didn't ask for medication until after she had watched the find on tv. So anything after she asked for medical attention should be held back as privileged in my opinion as medical treatment. Anybody else remember that she could see part of a tv screen from her cell? I think she told her mother she could see a part of Nancy Grace.

The jail staff say they were instructed to take her to medical by their superiors who were instructed by the Sheriff's office. Her "special treatment" irritates me. I don't recall which interview you are writing about but on a similar line, I do recall her watching Nancy Grace on JAB's laptop while in jail.

I'm no HIPPA expert but I think her asking for meds in front of others waives her medical privilege but that may not be true if the only others were guards to her. But if all she has to do is mention "I want a pill" and everything thereafter is not released, seems like she'd have been doing it on the jail visit videos that were released.

Just trying to figure this all out with you...
 
The jail staff say they were instructed to take her to medical by their superiors who were instructed by the Sheriff's office. Her "special treatment" irritates me. I don't recall which interview you are writing about but on a similar line, I do recall her watching Nancy Grace on JAB's laptop while in jail.

I'm no HIPPA expert but I think her asking for meds in front of others waives her medical privilege but that may not be true if the only others were guards to her. But if all she has to do is mention "I want a pill" and everything thereafter is not released, seems like she'd have been doing it on the jail visit videos that were released.

Just trying to figure this all out with you...

OK just to clarify a few things about HiPPA. It is not like Attorney Client privelege. It does not get waived because of the presense of others. The health care provider cannot talk about medical care given or patient diagnosis unless or until the patient specifically requests that they do so, or so instructed by a lawful court order. Nothing that would be in the medical chart can be reevealed. And that is the key determinant of where HiPPA kicks in. IS IT IN THE PATIENTS MEDICAL CHART? IF SO IT IS PROTECTED. If it is not in the chart or documentation, no privelege or protection arrises. (Beyond some doctor/patient confidentiality rules that like lawyers only cover one on one conversations, but are easily broken by a court order).

Also HiPPA really does not have alot of teeth or alot of hold on non licensed non health care providers. Anyone who did witness any public exchanges involving the patient is not bound by any HiPPA constraints. It is not a privelege so it cannot be kept from court for such reasons. So unless the patient is being actively treated in a public waiting room, then chances are HiPPA does not apply.

Further HiPPA can be easily waived to a limited or great degree by the patient. Every one of us does it every single time we have a doctors appointment. We allow limited waivers in order to allow comunication of our medical information to an outside party our insurance carriers. It's part of all that paperwork and forms we fill out when we sign in at the doctors office. So what exactly is the level of waiver that exists in a jail or prison? What was signed, or what simply is waived as a matter of public policy once incarcerated?

Is this making any sense? HiPPA is primarily there to keep your medical records and diagnosis private. It's main governing drive is to protect medical records. It is not the protection of a lawyer or a confessional. What you say or do in front of a doctor or in a health office may be used against you. Your MRI however cannot.
 
OK just to clarify a few things about HiPPA. It is not like Attorney Client privelege. It does not get waived because of the presense of others. The health care provider cannot talk about medical care given or patient diagnosis unless or until the patient specifically requests that they do so, or so instructed by a lawful court order. Nothing that would be in the medical chart can be reevealed. And that is the key determinant of where HiPPA kicks in. IS IT IN THE PATIENTS MEDICAL CHART? IF SO IT IS PROTECTED. If it is not in the chart or documentation, no privelege or protection arrises. (Beyond some doctor/patient confidentiality rules that like lawyers only cover one on one conversations, but are easily broken by a court order).

Also HiPPA really does not have alot of teeth or alot of hold on non licensed non health care providers. Anyone who did witness any public exchanges involving the patient is not bound by any HiPPA constraints. It is not a privelege so it cannot be kept from court for such reasons. So unless the patient is being actively treated in a public waiting room, then chances are HiPPA does not apply.

Further HiPPA can be easily waived to a limited or great degree by the patient. Every one of us does it every single time we have a doctors appointment. We allow limited waivers in order to allow comunication of our medical information to an outside party our insurance carriers. It's part of all that paperwork and forms we fill out when we sign in at the doctors office. So what exactly is the level of waiver that exists in a jail or prison? What was signed, or what simply is waived as a matter of public policy once incarcerated?

Is this making any sense? HiPPA is primarily there to keep your medical records and diagnosis private. It's main governing drive is to protect medical records. It is not the protection of a lawyer or a confessional. What you say or do in front of a doctor or in a health office may be used against you. Your MRI however cannot.

Excellent explanation. Thanks a lot.
 
OK just to clarify a few things about HiPPA. It is not like Attorney Client privelege. It does not get waived because of the presense of others. The health care provider cannot talk about medical care given or patient diagnosis unless or until the patient specifically requests that they do so, or so instructed by a lawful court order. Nothing that would be in the medical chart can be reevealed. And that is the key determinant of where HiPPA kicks in. IS IT IN THE PATIENTS MEDICAL CHART? IF SO IT IS PROTECTED. If it is not in the chart or documentation, no privelege or protection arrises. (Beyond some doctor/patient confidentiality rules that like lawyers only cover one on one conversations, but are easily broken by a court order).

Also HiPPA really does not have alot of teeth or alot of hold on non licensed non health care providers. Anyone who did witness any public exchanges involving the patient is not bound by any HiPPA constraints. It is not a privelege so it cannot be kept from court for such reasons. So unless the patient is being actively treated in a public waiting room, then chances are HiPPA does not apply.

Further HiPPA can be easily waived to a limited or great degree by the patient. Every one of us does it every single time we have a doctors appointment. We allow limited waivers in order to allow comunication of our medical information to an outside party our insurance carriers. It's part of all that paperwork and forms we fill out when we sign in at the doctors office. So what exactly is the level of waiver that exists in a jail or prison? What was signed, or what simply is waived as a matter of public policy once incarcerated?

Is this making any sense? HiPPA is primarily there to keep your medical records and diagnosis private. It's main governing drive is to protect medical records. It is not the protection of a lawyer or a confessional. What you say or do in front of a doctor or in a health office may be used against you. Your MRI however cannot.

Excellent! Thanks for such a clear overview!
 

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