Watching Motions Hearing Live on Friday 10-10-08

[karenc333]

Karen, respectfully here, put yourself in the State's position. We'll just deal with the child neglect charge here, ok?

so, the state says to KC, produce your daughter. KC either can't or won't. While I'm assuming that the State has no right to our children, in cases where the child can't speak for themselves, the State has a duty to speak for the child. The parent has a duty to present the child.

In this case, KC has flaunted the law, given the finger to the State. Just exactly how sorry or sympathetic do you think we should feel?

The very fact that KC won't tell LE or CFS where Caylee is speaks volumes. Whether she murdered her or not, KC is more worried about KC than her daughter.

Are you a parent? If someone took your child and you didn't see that child for going on 3 months now, wouldn't you be on TV telling the abductors that you are going to do ANYTHING YOU POSSIBLY CAN to have your child returned to you? I'm not saying KC needs to be on tv explaining herself to us. I am saying she needs to produce Caylee. She needs to be doing everything possible to get her daughter back. That does not include ID theft, forging checks, stealing from friends and family, and dancing the night away with whomever.

So, just in case I haven't been clear enough on this, yep, KC deserves a defense. But, dude, Caylee deserves to be found! Let's all stop this damn defending of KC! Let's get to the heart of the matter, the crux of the biscuit.

KC needs to tell what happened to Caylee. She has to be concerned about her daughter. KC will get her fair trial. Isn't she lucky to live in a country that requires that? Too bad Caylee doesn't have a mom who will give her the same right.

so. really long story short: I will continue to bash JB for his juvenile legal antics. I will continue to trash KC at every opportunity. Pond scum.

I'm not defending Casey. I'm just saying that if there is anything that could be done to find Caylee alive, then it should be done. JMO

And, in answer to your question, yes I am a parent. I have 4 children ages 3-21. If someone took my child, I would do whatever I could to get them safely home to me. If I felt that by going to the media or police would endanger my child's life, I would be hesitant to do those things.

 

[Chezhire]

I could be wrong but I thought the state HAD TO preserve part of a sample for defense testing in case the matter does go to trial....I remember during the OJ case that the blood samples had been split so many times there was nothing viable left to test...

Yes, if there's enough for additional testing. But as Themis stated earlier, if there's not enough but for "one shot," different jurisdictions treat it differently and we don't yet have a US Supreme COurt case laying it out all pretty in a neat little box for us.

 

[shelbar53]

Bolded by me.

Exactly, that is the hardest part of this case, deciphering the lies. Casey has lied numerous times. We can only go by what is said and try and decipher what is true, what is not true but none of us know for sure. With that said, I still think that there is a possibility that Caylee is alive. And if that is the case, I believe that there is a reason that Casey is lying about her whereabouts or about what transpired. Just trying to keep an open mind.

what is not true but none of us know for sure
not true.
lie... no accident with nanny that led to a hospitalization
lie... she did not graduate from high school
lie...she did not attend college
lie...she did not work at universal this past year {at least}
lie... father never coming to fix car {when it was at amscot}
that is just a few of her lies so to say "what is NOT true none us us will ever know"...is not true.

 

[Chezhire]

Themis, I have a question on your very thoughtful post, if it hasn't already been asked. Can the Judge revise (limit) the amount of time at JB's office without the State requesting? Can he do this on his own initiative? I know the State questioned it repeatedly but did not ask him directly to revise or give reasons why a revision should be made.

It's obvious to all logical thinkers that the visitation schedule is excessive and flaunts the home confinement standard for most if not all -- but will the Judge actually do anything about it without prompting? Thanks.

Most judges have WIDE latitude and can do things sue sponte/on their own motion.

 

[Pondering Mind]

I believe he filed the motions prior to the state wanting to present their evidence to the grand jury. And we all really don't know what her interest is in finding her child, we can only assume. Again, I believe that if there is anything that can be done to find Caylee alive, it should be done. JMO

Karen, respectfully I ask if you could point to one thing that Casey did to find Caylee in that 31 days? Given what we know that she said, she told no one except 2 people (according to Casey) 1 that does not exist and 1 that says she was lying. I would LOVE for someone to tell me 1 thing that she has done. As to the last part of your post, I believe everything should be done to bring Caylee home, alive or deceased. If she has info, why would she be afraid to let LE investigate and not be afraid to let JB et al do it? Do you think that she believes Caylee would be safe if it was she, JB and the bailbond guy searching (or running them around in circles)?

 

[karenc333]

Believe it or not there are actually rules of professional and ethical conduct that govern lawyers.

If Casey lead Baez to physical evidence that pointed to a crime then he is obligated to turn it over to LE immediately.

If Casey told Baez who really has Caylee and she is still alive ... he has to tell LE or he is complicit to the furtherance of a crime (kidnapping).

Now if Casey confesses to Baez that she killed Caylee ... Baez is obligated to his client, to tell no one ~ because the crime is complete and in the past.

If I were Baez the minute Casey started bearing her soul to me ... I'd tell her to shut up and not say another word and unless he wants to be disbarred that is exactly what he did. Period.

Any defense attorney will tell you this ... ignorance is bliss and if client wants to confess ... find them a priest.

So does that mean that Baez doesn't know anything more than LE?

 

[OcalaMom]

Caught up reading!
No surprises here in these rulings and in the deferred motions.

Granting the release of discovery; including the early releases helps protect the record against claims of ineffective defense or assistance of counsel. Judge Strickland is clearly protecting the record and helping to keep the case on track for speedy trial or moving it forward so there won't be so many defense delays. He indicated defense counsel had to do his own work in that regard as well. Understand why prosecution had not yet disclosed, but the results of granting discovery motions was not unexpected.

Sealing the records: Judge Strickland will deny the motion, but he will want to cite some of the avalanche of cases that have come down in recent years regarding the public's right to keep the courts and the records open. There is no duty of the courts to prevent against defense anticipated future unlawful and violent acts of alleged perpetrators who might think to harm Casey. If she really has a personal safety issue after hiring body guards and putting in the home security system; then she could always give up bail and go to the default position -- back to jail.
Second reason the Judge won't seal the home monitoring records is home confinement is part of the Probation Office and that is a County office. The County was not representated in that hearing. This may or may not make it into the opinion.

I predict Judge Strickland will not seal the home monitoring records.

Modifying Home Confinement: I predict that Judge Strickland will modify the home confinement, but not in a way that is requested by defense motions. Judge Strickland was concerned about the extraordinary six hour daily visits to the attorney and the fact that the officer didn't have a way of knowing where she was while at those visits. Home confinement is the Court's order and the Court can tighten up the definition of home confinement there. It is probably standard practice to allow attorney visits, but he may bring this back towards the standard practice and away from the extraordinary. As to searching for Caylee and going to the usual places she went to the month prior to being arrested; I predict Judge Strickland will not allow it. He was concerned with tampering with evidence and there is still evidence out there. He commented that there may be a potential homicide case in the future. He is aware that Casey can provide that information to her attorney for his investigators to follow-up or to LE for their investigators to follow-up. The usual factors showing the defendant is not likely to flee: home ownership, business, steady job history, highly developed career credentials, close ties to the community, are not present. The bail bondsman's stumbling on the risk factors -- without home confinement -- was very telling. Allowing Casey to search is essentially a partial home confinement and not consistent with the Judge's own orders or the practice of the courts.

Testing the Evidence: Neither side gave Judge Strickland enough information on the diminishing quantity to test argument. Theory is one thing, but in this case is there enough of the sample to re-test. The maker of the motion has the burden of proof to carry the motion. Baez is in a catch 22 because he doesn't have enough information about those tests yet to see the quantities left. Judge Strickland may deny the motion without prejudice, he may bring it again, or Judge Strickland may defer judgement and allow Mr. Baez to amend. Either way, he won't allow defense to interfere with the ongoing investigation. However, prosecution takes a risk here. If there isn't enough to re-test, they could lose having that evidence at trial.

Just my thoughts. Any comments?

I've been waiting for your take on this, and thank you for your insight and analysis. I bolded the phrase that kept going through my mind as JB was arguing this motion request.

To those who believe that KC is afraid of the 'bad guys' who took Caylee and that is why she isn't talking, listen to JB again--it's all about the media nd the protestors. Since she isn't willing to help LE and she's scared of what may happen to her or her cool sunglasses, I think jail is the safest place for her.

I pray she'll feel nice and safe in her cell very soon.

 

[jennyb]

Most judges have WIDE latitude and can do things sue sponte/on their own motion.

Good to know.

 

[Gma Kat]

Yes, if there's enough for additional testing. But as Themis stated earlier, if there's not enough but for "one shot," different jurisdictions treat it differently and we don't yet have a US Supreme COurt case laying it out all pretty in a neat little box for us.

Thanks Chezire and Themis for your astute legal info...really appreciate it...its amazing how different venues handle things...this case is one for the books.

 

[sandcastles4me]

I'm not defending Casey. I'm just saying that if there is anything that could be done to find Caylee alive, then it should be done. JMO

And, in answer to your question, yes I am a parent. I have 4 children ages 3-21. If someone took my child, I would do whatever I could to get them safely home to me. If I felt that by going to the media or police would endanger my child's life, I would be hesitant to do those things.

Time is very important when a child goes missing. To wait even a day could be crucial to that child being found safely. It has been almost 4 months!

 

[Gin]

I'm not defending Casey. I'm just saying that if there is anything that could be done to find Caylee alive, then it should be done. JMO

And, in answer to your question, yes I am a parent. I have 4 children ages 3-21. If someone took my child, I would do whatever I could to get them safely home to me. If I felt that by going to the media or police would endanger my child's life, I would be hesitant to do those things.

I realize this is your honest answer.
I believe, though, that by hesitating to immediately call LE to get help for a child, the parent only exponentially increases the very real threat that the child is in grave danger or worse.

I could never in a million years take such a risk.

 

[karenc333]

Everyone has to do their own research and come up with their own conclusion on that. Nothing I say or present will change your mind or heart one way or another, you have to do that yourself. It is heart wrenching either way, a little girl is missing.

I agree...it is very heart wrenching either way. The only thing that would convince me 100% is if they found her body. And the only way I could draw my own conclusion outside of that is to have all of the evidence presented to me and hear both the defense and prosecution.

 

[Gma Kat]

So does that mean that Baez doesn't know anything more than LE?

Back in the dark ages (before Windows,,,) when I worked for a criminal def atty I learned that no matter how moral he might be....he DID NOT ASK if his clients were guilty. He did not want to know. He was a great man and did wonderful things for the community adn lots of pro bono work, but he got a kick out of getting scum off ANY WAY POSSIBLE....so I'm skeptical for life... of what an atty may or may not know.

 

[distracted]

Think about it...

Everything the Judge is granting, they have 10 days to turn over with extension if needed.

I think she'll be back in jail before anything is turned over so he will then be entitled to it all.

He's on the losing end of the stick and it's beating him all about the face and neck.

Absolutely. If she's charged within 10 days, and I fully expect her to be, then they would have to turn it over anyway. Of course the Judge knows this. If it takes a little longer for the GJ to indict her, it won't be that much longer. A few days at most. I am not bothered by any of the Judge's rulings.

 

[jnTexas]

I hope that KC gets a new defense lawyer. No i'm not on her side. If this guy gets to try this case we will see her win an appeal. I do want to see this end soon.

 

[LCoastMom]

Karen
"Allowing his client to wear items purchased with stolen checks and hiring that PR firm who has no grasp of the english language makes me question his judgement.

I agree that it is not a good thing for Casey to be wearing things that she purchased with stolen checks...if they were indeed stolen. For all we know Amy gave her permission to use them. I don't know. Maybe she is making a statement about that. Regardless if she actually stole them or not, in the publics eye, it is not a good idea that she wear things purchased with those checks."

We have seen a sworn statement from AH that KC indeed stole her checks, we have canceled checks from Target that show KC's signature on AH's acct. We have photos of KC at Target with the goods on the check out stand.

She has not been found guilty in court but I think those check charges are a slam dunk. IMHO

 

[Pondering Mind]

I realize this is your honest answer.
I believe, though, that by hesitating to immediately call LE to get help for a child, the parent only exponentially increases the very real threat that the child is in grave danger or worse.

I could never in a million years take such a risk.

Me neither! I am not aware of any child that was kidnapped and found safely by the parents after not contacting LE. NOT saying that it hasn't happened, I have just never heard of a case. Maybe someone else here has?

 

[sandcastles4me]

Back in the dark ages (before Windows,,,) when I worked for a criminal def atty I learned that no matter how moral he might be....he DID NOT ASK if his clients were guilty. He did not want to know. He was a great man and did wonderful things for the community adn lots of pro bono work, but he got a kick out of getting scum off ANY WAY POSSIBLE....so I'm skeptical for life... of what an atty may or may not know.

Didn't someone say on NG the other night that if a defendent tells her lawyer say where the body is or that they committed the crime he should excuse himself from the case?

 

[karenc333]

Yes. Most of the detailed information he is asking for is already available to him and he needs to do his part formally to request it...He has not done that. He seems to expect the State to hand it all to him in a tidy binder. It doesn't work that way. The state is obliged to let him know what is available and its up to him to request the detail that is available.

Then I don't understand why the prosecution was arguing against his motions? I'm thinking that what they are really arguing about is which case the evidence really belongs with...the child neglect case or in the upcoming murder charges? Am I understanding that correctly?

 

[karenc333]

Then, whose was the body she was driving around for days? And, how did the death band get into the Anthony female hair?

Why did she agree to cooperate with the FBI, and then refuse, when they came?

When I'm grieving or scared, I don't go clubbing every night, or troll for guys on the Net.

She's afraid of going back to jail. That's all.

Until the really come out with all of their findings, I can't make that judgement call.