weekend discussion: discuss the trial here #154

[FrayedKnot]

This is a common misconception. It's incorrect. Sociopaths can and do feel. They do not feel the full range of human emotion, but they feel.

Most markedly, they do not experience empathy or remorse. However, they can and do experience other emotions---as they relate to themselves. For example, my (diagnosed) antisocial husband showed a pretty flat affect during most of the demise of our marriage--a period of many months when it became clear, to me, that I was married to a complete stranger (even though I'd known him for over 30 years). I completely fell apart when assimilating the notion that my entire adult life was founded on fraud.

What he did was manipulate our lives so that I experienced the feelings for both of us; then, he responded with disgust and anger. And really demented pride that he was so strong while I was so weak. (After all, I was emoting all over the place.)

But most of the time, he was utterly impassive. I could quite literally be a puddle of snot and tears on the floor (25 years' worth of pain came out when I realized my life was ... a complete and utter fraud), and he'd simply step over me and carry on as though nothing was awry. When I begged him to talk, and he actually indulged me, he was either sneering and derisive (angry) or had a totally flat affect, with no emotion at all. His emotions ranged from blank, emotionless affect to scorn and seething anger. There was nothing else. No empathy, no remorse, no sadness, no anything. Except for anger. That was never very far below the flat surface.

He can seem empathetic, in certain circumstances. If someone else is experiencing something with which he has personal experience, he is able to appear as though he is putting himself in their shoes. This is useful, because it does convince others he has a range of emotion that is broader than he actually does.

What he does--and quite well (though he usually does not bother, with me at least, any more)---is act as though he has the usual range of human emotion. Really, the range is very small.

Unfortunately, what he does feel is incredibly destructive.

Jodi Arias feels. Her emotional range is stunted. Her feelings are blunted. Except the anger---that is amplified, as is her sense of entitlement. All we need to do is look at what she's done to see what her anger spawns.

The acts of a sociopath or psychopath are not those of an unfeeling human. They are the acts of a person feeling disproportionate anger, and not much else.

JMO and experience, of course.

BetsyB-

(((Hugs)))

Thanks for sharing your painful experience and perspective.

 

[G&AMom]

I'm not a big fan of Dr. Drew but I did see him give a really good explanation of why Michael Jackson's doctor (Murray? Can't remember his name) got himself into so much trouble. Dr. Drew said that doctors should never tie themselves to a single patient, and a patient should never have a single doctor. He said protocols are there for a reason, and they would possibly prevented what happened to MJ. He said that had Murray brought in other experts (for drug issues, etc.) it's more unlikely he would have died.

That's what I liked about Dr. DeMarte. She followed protocols. Everything she did with JA would have been done no matter who the State had hired. That's why I'm more inclined to listen to her than the other experts who didn't follow protocol.

 

[YESorNO]

Why on earth would anyone think calling someone on rudeness is racist?



I don't think it is an intrusion at all. I also don't think it's voyeurism.

I can't speak for anyone else here but for me, everyone is sympathetic and hovering in the beginning when there is a tragedy. But then their own lives call and they move to the next thing while we remain "stuck."

People think you should stop "dwelling" on it because "these things happen and there's no reason" and they don't want to talk about it anymore and they really don't want YOU to talk about it anymore. They've moved on and they think you should, too.
In a place like this, no one expects you to pack up your grief, swallow your sorrow and get on with things. No matter how long it's been. You don't even have to talk about it. You just know that if you did bring it up, no one is going to hush you or rush to change the subject.

Quiet solidarity, I call it and if you're here it means you get it and you won't thin your lips in disapproval or wonder why we're attached to cases like this.

My .25 cos I think it's worth more than .02.

BBM You are so right about this. My son use to listen to me about the trial, but now he doesn't want to hear it and "let me know when the verdict is in. I'm sick of hearing about it". The nerve. illowfight:

I like those words: "quiet solidarity". :rocker:

 

[DebinGA]

thanks.

And flirting with, and exchanging numbers with a guy on the plane ride home from a memorial service. Yup.

And iirc called him the next day.

 

[ladonna]

I did not see it for JA case though until 4/23

Right Judge Stevens told the jury to report Tues, IIRC.

 

[TexMex]

I can't remember if the reason for that text calling JA a psycho and telling her how evil she is was ever put out there. Something to do with her not telling him who someone was??? I'm very confused. Does anyone know what TA was talking about in that text??

She had given Travis a story that someone had come by her job at a restaurant and told her he was dating someone new (just like she said happened with MM). He was rightly skeptical and demanding she come clean.

 

[kscornfed]

I hope the jury reviews early testimony. I've been listening to det. Flores. The second phone conversation he had with her is the first time she mentions 2 intruders.

I'd completely forgotten that!

 

[AstroKitty]

I'm swearing to you all that she is simply a coveter of lovers. The camera, the pictures she doodles.. they all have a running theme. I asked a professor I study under and he felt my assumptions were correct or near it. She takes photos to CAPTURE forever, which is why it was in her murder. She draws pictures of people to CAPTURE them.

Wanna hear a scary story?

A few years ago I owned an art gallery in Chicago. I often held parties monthly to pay the rent and get new clients. At this one opening I happened to have the Sun Times there and spoke at length about a book I wrote which was published (no worries, I have an editor). I noticed a man standing around with wrapped gifts. I approached him and the gifts were for me. I never met him, but with who I am.. I do have fans, so it wasn't entirely unusual. But - then he just stood there as I unwrapped these odd trinkets. Eventually someone noticed that I was uncomfortable and did the "save her" thing: IE "Hey we need you right now" and I excused myself.

Fast forward to that Monday and a phone call from the Lobby of the building. He was there and with another gift. I allowed him up to our gallery and accepted the present. He stayed 30 minutes and left. He had drawn a gorgeous life like image of me, from a famous portrait online of me, but then a friend said "He did that to capture you you know". And the more I thought about it the more I realized he had. He began to stalk me and sending hateful messages both by email and also by mail. I hired a PI to track him down so I could get a restraining order, it worked. Fast forward to last year and a surge of hate mail and me getting the boot out of a hotel I was staying in, in Italy. I came back to Chicago with all this new information and he was arrested. When the cops arrested him they found out he had a shrine with photos of me all over the place and lists (tons of them) detailing where I went, what I did and even things out of my trash! I left Chicago in the middle of a night and I've been hiding since. He gets out of jail this year. A lot of Jodi's behavior mimics his - the photos, the sketches and the inappropriate "stop over". This man went as far as to buddy up to my friends who also receive fan gifts. He posed as other people online to gain their trust too.

My point is.. she's doing something I've seen before and just like with him - I'm convinced she too has done this before and possibly killed. There's a lot in her interrogations that make me think this. I often wonder if she knew of TA before she joined PPL.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Right Judge Stevens told the jury to report Tues, IIRC.

However, This was not there yesterday,,

http://www.superiorcourt.maricopa.g...rtCases/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CR2008-031021

No hearing listed. No hearing requested..

Who knows but it is a possibility. There is no trial listed on days they are out.

 

[Midnight Meddler]

The one issue that troubles me about this case is JA was understood by her lover Travis and her friends as being different. She did things that were not normal. Yet she was used as a three hole wonder.
Who is responsible here? Did Travis ever meet JA's parents? Was anyone ever contacted when JA's behavior became symptomatic? JA was a perfect storm ready to erupt having a relationship go terribly wrong.
To sit back after the fact and call her a monster and all the names I have heard doesn't solve this problem.

:seeya: You're right, it is not normal to manipulate and lure men in with your 3 holes, terrorize, steal, sneak, stalk and eventually brutally murder him. The poor Monster. Someone should have gotten the sneaky little thing some help.

I am one of those people who believe that when you become an adult, you take responsibility for your own actions. You don't BLAME the victim.

 

[YESorNO]

Mine doesn't want to go out until she hears Juan's voice rising to a cross exam crescendo, and then it has to be RIGHT NOW, THIS MINUTE!

Mine runs when I yell at the TV; APPROACH

 

[PrincessSezMe]

Sorry to ask this again, but could someone guide me where in the testimony I might find the ring and or Christmas tree "sleepover",Thanks in advance.

The source of the Christmas tree story was Clancy Talbot, a friend of Travis'. Obviously the story was true.

http://www.hlntv.com/video/2013/03/20/friend-travis-alexander-clancy-talbot-prosecution-witness-list

ETA: read the article underneath the video. The video does not show her telling the Christmas tree story.

 

[Mellinyce]

Yeah, sorry...My fog was telling me the 23rd was on Monday. :facepalm::blushing:

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

 

[bznbear]

The evidence is showing that their final conversations were exchanges of threats-- not about Cancun.

You don't need to kill someone over a trip! What Travis was threatening to do was to ruin Arias' chances to move to the next man to the right, which is what she's always done.

The evidence shows she did not need to grieve Travis' death, but was able to clean blood off her hands and begin grinding immediately on someone else. This does not look like "he's the only one--I had to have him" jealous mentality to me. It looks more like, "up the ladder I go and I f*ckin' got rid of his *advertiser censored*--ruin me, will he...well look who ruined who!"

It was her future she was concerned about and willing to kill to preserve--a future of $$$ and prestige as a trophy wife, nothing to do with religion or love at all.

All about Jodi and her ability to continue to use her (perceived) assets to insure a way out of the ghetto.


Anagrammy

Oh, AG, your comments hit so close to how I feel. I don't think she ever loved Travis, or anyone else for that matter. She felt rage against him.

She left him butchered, bloody and naked, completely exposed. I think she did that deliberately, to humiliate him, even in death. Had she any feeling or remorse, she would have left him in a more dignified position, imo.

It was her last "Eff you" to him for crossing her, betraying her.

 

[katiecoolady]

he looks retarded, picture of him on dating site =gross, i'm not surprised tho he won't get out, that's just worst case scenario you won ! i bet he on the bubbacot dating game behind bars instead of deathrow where he has alot of sympathizers attention . now he got a diff kind o attention, good.

I actually fell in that rabbit hole today going off a post of how sociopaths change so much physically in prison (I'm also in the camp who thought the Jodi Travis fell for was striking). I went looking for comparison (search Michael Apelt on google images and you will see some from long ago and Unrecognizable mugshots)

Prison is no sociopaths friend in the looks department but they still get people wanting to marry them....go figure

 

[cricket49]

This is what I think too and I think back about how when I was young and dating some guy I was starting to like said something dis-respectful to me and I left the restaurant we were in and called a friend for a ride home. Never took his calls again. We teach people how to treat us. But was Jodi so damaged that she did not realize that tolerating dis-respect will only get you more of the same?

BBM

I had many friends who had many one night stands or drove to some guys house in the middle of the night after they called. YOU have a choice.

One thing I always believed (and told my friends) "Everybody deserves to be treated good." That is why I did not date everyone who asked me out and I was alone many nights when I was single. It paid off in the end with a wonderful husband. :rocker:

 

[spcagrl]

I understand the anger and frustration I really do .. I just also thing there are ways of 'dampening down' a situation, and it seems to me that it wasn't done in a combined way. People didn't see that she was actually disturbed and treat her with kid gloves. And yes, you're right .. she had no connection with them and it wasn't their job.

But.....now I am really confused.....I thought Jodi appeared at Skye's house to confront Skye on why they did not like her?????? I did not hear about yelling.
Sorry.....I may have missed that.

 

[Spellbound]

I did not see it for JA case though until 4/23

That is what I read, too. 23rd is Tuesday.

 

[DebinGA]

She had given Travis a story that someone had come by her job at a restaurant and told her he was dating someone new (just like she said happened with MM). He was rightly skeptical and demanding she come clean.

That's right, but I don't think that was all. We don't have any phone conversations other than the May 10 phone sex, and there must have been many. I can't imagine choosing to relay strong emotions or outrage by typing instead of speaking. When Travis referred to "your dire conversation", he was talking about something he'd heard, perhaps a voicemail, but spoken words imo.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

I'm swearing to you all that she is simply a coveter of lovers. The camera, the pictures she doodles.. they all have a running theme. I asked a professor I study under and he felt my assumptions were correct or near it. She takes photos to CAPTURE forever, which is why it was in her murder. She draws pictures of people to CAPTURE them.

Wanna hear a scary story?

A few years ago I owned an art gallery in Chicago. I often held parties monthly to pay the rent and get new clients. At this one opening I happened to have the Sun Times there and spoke at length about a book I wrote which was published (no worries, I have an editor). I noticed a man standing around with wrapped gifts. I approached him and the gifts were for me. I never met him, but with who I am.. I do have fans, so it wasn't entirely unusual. But - then he just stood there as I unwrapped these odd trinkets. Eventually someone noticed that I was uncomfortable and did the "save her" thing: IE "Hey we need you right now" and I excused myself.

Fast forward to that Monday and a phone call from the Lobby of the building. He was there and with another gift. I allowed him up to our gallery and accepted the present. He stayed 30 minutes and left. He had drawn a gorgeous life like image of me, from a famous portrait online of me, but then a friend said "He did that to capture you you know". And the more I thought about it the more I realized he had. He began to stalk me and sending hateful messages both by email and also by mail. I hired a PI to track him down so I could get a restraining order, it worked. Fast forward to last year and a surge of hate mail and me getting the boot out of a hotel I was staying in, in Italy. I came back to Chicago with all this new information and he was arrested. When the cops arrested him they found out he had a shrine with photos of me all over the place and lists (tons of them) detailing where I went, what I did and even things out of my trash! I left Chicago in the middle of a night and I've been hiding since. He gets out of jail this year. A lot of Jodi's behavior mimics his - the photos, the sketches and the inappropriate "stop over". This man went as far as to buddy up to my friends who also receive fan gifts. He posed as other people online to gain their trust too.

My point is.. she's doing something I've seen before and just like with him - I'm convinced she too has done this before and possibly killed. There's a lot in her interrogations that make me think this. I often wonder if she knew of TA before she joined PPL.

WOW!!! Stay safe! Interesting point about the 'capturing' I think you're right!

BBM: I have wondered the same thing.

ETA: How did she come across PPL, and what was it that drew her to the first meeting, was Travis one of the speakers that night? Something grabbed her about him before they formally met IMO.