Weekend Discussion thread 04/21-24/2012

[Alethea Dice]

Antisocial personality disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1. Callous unconcern for feelings of others: let parents stew about where their daughter was, lied to many of these women
2. irresponsibility, disregard social norms, rules and obligations: didn't work, took and sold drugs (I believe LE), drove on narcotics, sponged off mother
3. incapacity to maintain long term relationships but not problem starting them: omg let me count the ways and women. IMO
4. low tolerance to frustration and aggression- jury is still out so to speak
5. incapacity to experience guilt - he buried a child, covered crime scene and his life didn't seem to skip a beat and he let the parents stew over where their child was
6. markedly prone to blame others or offer rationalizations for his behavior which has brought him into conflict with society - see trial
7. deception, repeated lying and use of aliases or conning others for personal profit or pleasure - again see trial
8. impulsiveness-failure to plan ahead- not sure of this I am thinking he plans sometimes and is impulsive other times IMO

IMO TLM could also meet these criteria. MOO

Same thing...

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/antisocial-personality-disorder/DS00829

Antisocial personality disorder is a type of chronic mental illness in which a person's ways of thinking, perceiving situations and relating to others are abnormal — and destructive.

People with antisocial personality disorder typically have no regard for right and wrong. They may often violate the law and the rights of others, landing in frequent trouble or conflict. They may lie, behave violently, and have drug and alcohol problems. And people with antisocial personality disorder may not be able to fulfill responsibilities to family, work or school.

Antisocial personality disorder is sometimes known as sociopathic personality disorder. A sociopath is a particularly severe form of antisocial personality disorder.

But, I agree. TLM does meet these criteria, in the most severe form.

JMO

 

[flipflop]

MR certainly doesn't fit the profile of an oxycontin addict.

The first noticeable thing about addicts is their appearance.

As an addict, their life is consumed with the search for drugs or the money to buy drugs.

Their appearance no longer is a priority for them.

Their personal hygiene becomes noticeably lacking.

Their teeth rot out and they scratch all the time.

Even Christie Blatchford commented on MR's conventional good looks and appearance.

I think MR is either an addict of some other substance.........or he isn't an addict at all and his drug use has been blown out of proportions.

If he kidnapped and sexually assaulted VS........it wasn't drugs that made him do it.

TLM.............is a whole different story............JMO......

I thought it was percocets that he was using/buying?!?

Common Percocet addiction symptoms are:

* High tolerance: Needing to take more and more in order to get the same or desired effect.
* Dependence: Feeling physical withdrawal symptoms if a dose is missed.
* Mood and behavior changes: Becoming hostile, volatile, agitated or anxious, especially between “fixes.”
* Compulsive use: Craving the drug and doing whatever it takes to get it, even despite adverse social, psychological or physical consequences.
* Financial problems associated with having to purchase more and more pills.
* Secretive or deceitful behavior in order to obtain the drug. Having multiple prescriptions from more than one doctor or buying it off the street is a good indication that an addiction has started.

http://www.casapalmera.com/articles/percocet-overview-addiction-signs-withdrawal-and-treatment/

signs of oxycodone addiction, such as:

•Secluded behavior, often needing to spend large amounts of time alone
•Stealing, lying, or other dishonest behavior
•An unexplainable lack of money
•Changes in social circles, such as abandoning good friends and replacing them with new ones
•Unexplained changes in mood or behaviors.

http://back-pain.emedtv.com/oxycodone/oxycodone-addiction.html

 

[girlfriday]

I'm curious if any there was any mention of toxicology tests on TS ... was it possible to have done any?

 

[otto]

I respect your opinion, but I do not agree with it. I believe the reason behind her depositing money into his account....she was another victim of being manipulated/cheated/lied (whatever word you want to call it) by MR. Just as he had manipulated TLM into what she thought was a real relationship, he had her wrapped around his baby finger and could get her to do whatever he asked.....and that was to kidnap a child for his sick fantasy. JMO

Any single mom with five children that is handing money over to a useless guy she met on the internet is extremely vulnerable and perhaps even desperate enough to make stupid decisions where she gives money to the man instead of using it to raise her children. There is no plausible explanation for why a woman like that would give money to a man she didn't know ... except that she wasn't thinking straight - easily manipilated and desperate to meet a guy that didn't "play headgames" and wanted to "better himself".

He had TLM and the escort jumping when he said jump ... like a con man - a man with an agenda.

 

[Kamille]

Armstrong considered Rafferty, 31, a "confidante" and sold him pills a few times a month for more than a year.

Armstrong testified she sold Rafferty more painkillers a few days later and met with him on a dozen more occasions until his arrest on May 19, 2009.

"He was looking haggard. He had a cold sore. He gets cold sores when he's super stressed," she said of their first meeting following Stafford's abduction. "He said that he hadn't been eating. He hadn't been sleeping. He was so stressed out, so many things going on in his life."

http://www.canada.com/Stafford+Tria...dealer+planned+search+Tori/6367050/story.html

It looks like he was fairly new to his addiction, he did have a proscription bottle in his bedroom. However after it looks like he changed his consumption level increased dramatically.

Rafferty asked the officers posing as inmates if they were carrying any drugs. They said no, but when he was asked what he was looking for, Rafferty said he wanted "Oxy," or OxyContin. He said he would take five 80 mg OxyContin pills a day, or 11 or 12 if they were 40 mg size. Rafferty said he would take 20 to 30 Percocets a day.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/04/05/rafferty-stafford-trial-thursday.html

If he was taking that number of percs then he wasn't dealing. Those baggies he was getting from BA were for his own personal consumption.

TLM also testified that he showed up at her house that day after she had returned from the grocery store looking for Oxy so they "went to get some".

Other's stated in newspaper articles and here on this board that he was bugging them for Oxy's years prior. The old girlfriend from 2007 talked of his popping percs. So they are both an old habit. He likely preferred the Oxy when he could get it, but settled for the percs because he knew where to get that steady supply.

MOO

 

[otto]

Imagine the threats that MR was using to keep her quiet while TLM was in the Home Depot. Victoria was afraid of him remember? That's why he had to walk to Mt Forest and back while TLM had her little chat with her.

I wonder why he didn't take his phone?

MOO

They were in it together and they are probably still holding back, just like Homolka and Bernardo.

 

[Alison]

you are also correct..the jury would never be expected to believe that TLM was babysitting material and I don't think that is what Dirk is trying to put out there to them...what he MAY put to them is TLM told MR that she was babysitting TS... <modsnip> we know they did their own search and called her friends but I have always felt the alarm should have been sounded earlier.. I believe it was the grandmother who reported her missing to the police.. JMO

In the case of any missing person's other avenues are exhausted first. I do not blame the parents.

 

[Alison]

TLM listed babysitting of a 8 year old and a 5 year old on her resume, so I don't think the jury will consider that to be impossible. Besides all the people in TLM life were addicts so I doubt they would think twice about TLM babysiting.

That is a pretty broad assumption to make. Where is your proof?

 

[Tahorn]

It doesn't really matter what sort of standards 18 year old TLM had for babysitting. 28 year old MR knew perfectly well what was normal and what wasn't when it came to 9 year old abducted children under a coat in the back seat area of his vehicle. There's no excuse for him supposedly looking to TLM to make decisions about how and where a child was transported and cared for in his vehicle.

That is if you believe TLM, after all there was no evidence of VS on the peacoat.

Now I agree he is somehow involved, but I have such a hard time believing TLM version. Besides it has changed a few times and I am sure if we question her again it will change again.

 

[Alison]

totally agree with you there about "what parent would permit TLM to babysit their child" and we now know that TM didn't but MR would not have known that about TLM...she had done some babysitting (or so she had listed on her resume QUOTE]


So he had access to her resume?

 

[Ardy]

MR was so consumed with finding drugs that he solicited women in online pick-up joints to pimp themselves out and give him the money. He used that money for drugs and a lazy lifestyle.

Why would MR stop at his drug dealer's house and spend $400 on drugs if it wasn't because he wanted to get high while sexually assaulting and murdering a young child. He had the child, all he needed were the drugs ... and maybe for a few days to come. I don't think that drugs made MR decide to sexualy assault a child ... more likely he is a sexual deviant that wanted to be high while committing the crime - intensify the experience.

MR and TLM made a horrible decision and the moment the pulled into the parking lot near the school to abduct a child, he was part of it.

Oxycontin would be poor choice of drugs to enhance sex.

Cocaine would be more relevant for sex.

MR shows the lifestyle of a drug dealer, more than a drug addict.

Street level at best........but it gave him cash.

He could pay $400 for percs and sell them for $800.

JMO......

 

[Kamille]

That is if you believe TLM, after all there was no evidence of VS on the peacoat.

Now I agree he is somehow involved, but I have such a hard time believing TLM version. Besides it has changed a few times and I am sure if we question her again it will change again.

There was no evidence of Victoria in the car either, well other than that one blood spot mixed with sperm cells. Not a hair anywhere else. And we know she was in there for a couple of hours. That's one major clean up. Not surprising that the coat was cleaned too.

TLM's story has changed once. In his favour.

MOO

 

[otto]

Armstrong considered Rafferty, 31, a "confidante" and sold him pills a few times a month for more than a year.

Armstrong testified she sold Rafferty more painkillers a few days later and met with him on a dozen more occasions until his arrest on May 19, 2009.

"He was looking haggard. He had a cold sore. He gets cold sores when he's super stressed," she said of their first meeting following Stafford's abduction. "He said that he hadn't been eating. He hadn't been sleeping. He was so stressed out, so many things going on in his life."

http://www.canada.com/Stafford+Tria...dealer+planned+search+Tori/6367050/story.html

It looks like he was fairly new to his addiction, he did have a proscription bottle in his bedroom. However after it looks like he changed his consumption level increased dramatically.

Rafferty asked the officers posing as inmates if they were carrying any drugs. They said no, but when he was asked what he was looking for, Rafferty said he wanted "Oxy," or OxyContin. He said he would take five 80 mg OxyContin pills a day, or 11 or 12 if they were 40 mg size. Rafferty said he would take 20 to 30 Percocets a day.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/04/05/rafferty-stafford-trial-thursday.html

It makes me smile to read that he broke out in a facial sexually transmitted illness/disease shortly after murdering a child. Amanda Knox broke out in cold sores before and after the murder of Meredith Kercher too. Why was he prescribed the prescription in the first place and was a doctor monitoring the situation - or just prescribing the pills and doing no follow up? Is there a provincial prescription database in Ontario?

Anyone that has been on those drugs for pain - without addiction - knows they completely fry your brain. It's like watching the stairs zoom in and out while trying to navigate to the top. I found that stuff seriously loopy. I stopped my prescription before I ran out because because I wanted to see what they felt like if I wasn't in extreme pain ... but threw them away instead.

 

[Kamille]

I'm curious if any there was any mention of toxicology tests on VS ... was it possible to have done any?

It was definitely possible. I'm surprised that didn't come up. I guess it was negative?

MOO

 

[Alison]

But they did testify to sexual intimacy, and none of them said MR showed or expressed any deviant sexual interest.

They testified to why the relationships ended and none of the women said it was because of deviant sexual interests.

The opportunity was there.

JMO...........

They were not asked probably because the crown could not ask....?

 

[Tahorn]

That is a pretty broad assumption to make. Where is your proof?

http://www.thestar.com/news/article...ddled-mcclintic-offered-to-take-fall-for-beau

 

[girlfriday]

To me, this seems so odd ... how close her name is to TM and that MR called her while TS was in the car ... such a weird coincidence. Too bad she couldn't recount the call.

QUOTE: Tara McLellan, 30, also testified Friday that she went on a date with Rafferty around that time after chatting with him on Plenty of Fish. They went on a coffee date to Tim Hortons on April 1 but didn't go out again after that, she testified. He did, however, call her at 4:28 p.m. on April 8, phone records show, though McLellan doesn't remember receiving the call. END QUOTE

From this article:
http://www.fm96.com/Channels/newsinfo/localnews/Story.aspx?ID=1690558

 

[otto]

That is if you believe TLM, after all there was no evidence of VS on the peacoat.

Now I agree he is somehow involved, but I have such a hard time believing TLM version. Besides it has changed a few times and I am sure if we question her again it will change again.

It actually has nothing to do with TLM. If a 28 year old man, photographed at a wedding with two preschooler girls, didn't know how to care for children that photo would not exist. It's common sense to know that a 28 year old man either does or doesn't know that it's not okay to take a 9 year old girl to a remote area with a coffe, hammer and garbage bags.

It doesn't really matter what TLM has to say other than whether he has been placed at the scene of the crime ... and he has. She can say what she wants after that, but there is nothing he can say to explain himself.

 

[Alison]

I must skip over some posts to remain an active member of this site....

 

[Alison]

http://www.thestar.com/news/article...ddled-mcclintic-offered-to-take-fall-for-beau

You said all the adults in her life where drug addicts which is quite incorrect. I know some adults who worked with her who are definaltly not drug addicts. You may want to make your statement more concise.