Weekend Discussion Thread 04/27-30/2012

[Ardy]

Here's an article that describes some of MR's background. It sounds like he was a troubled child, or perhaps too much for his mom to handle, so he was partially raised by extended family.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/ca...out-remarks-he-made-after-tori-147282055.html

I believe by his own admissions on Facebook etc..........that he had a troubled childhood. He sounded despondent on decisions he had made iin the past.

Not sure if it involved anything even remotely close to TLM's past though.

JMO.............

 

[otto]

The question still remains unanswered though.

If she gave all her money to MR..........what did she live on?

Was the money really from an "escort" business, or due to something else?

How does it all relate to the defense theory of a "drug debt" crime?

You may be right, that Derstine didn't challenge the witness directly, as she would have simply denied it, but if he can provide other evidence that shows the money was for some other reason............then what?

Remember that if people are involved in drug trafficking, they aren't going to want to be saying much about it, and testifying in court isn't going to change that, because they will still be on the streets long after this trial is over.

JMO..............

The income of witnesses is not relevant to the trial.

What is relevant is that MR contacted the escort woman twice on the day of the abduction and requested money. We know that the first requested money was used to buy drugs and the second requested money was withdrawn moments before MR drove TLM to the Home Depot to purchase the murder weapon.

We also know that MR habitually requested money from this particular woman and that over a period of 6 months she gave him cash and regularly transferred money into his account.

How does money from the escort translate into Victoria being abducted to settle a drug debt? I can't see how the dots would be connected.

 

[Flossie JMO]

So ... going with this theory ... the escort knowingly provided money to MR to buy drugs or she bought drugs from MR ... then MR abducted Victoria because of a drug debt ... I suppose this would mean that Victoria's mother owed money to someone ... I can't see how this adds up.

Could you elaborate a little more on this theory? How does the escort connect to Victoria's mother?

Not the OP, but what exactly did TM testify about re JG drug debt/ripping someone off for drugs? Don't recall exact testimony

 

[Flossie JMO]

The income of witnesses is not relevant to the trial.

What is relevant is that MR contacted the escort woman twice on the day of the abduction and requested money. We know that the first requested money was used to buy drugs and the second requested money was withdrawn moments before MR drove TLM to the Home Depot to purchase the murder weapon.

We also know that MR habitually requested money from this particular woman and that over a period of 6 months she gave him cash and regularly transferred money into his account.

How does money from the escort translate into Victoria being abducted to settle a drug debt? I can't see how the dots would be connected.

I disagree with your opinion, sorry, JMO

 

[swedie]

Informative article, thanks Otto! MR was very familiar with that area. Sounds like MR had the black sheep syndrome IMHO. And to clarify, MR only worked for JC in the summer of 2003 and then one year Sept. 2005 to Sept. 2006. From past articles I read, they made it sound like MR had steady employment from 2003 through to 2006, not the case at all. Has there been any other jobs MR has held besides this and Better Beef? Wow doesn't sound like it. 28 years old, high school drop out with one credit, druggie, possible drug dealer, pimping, couldn't get along with family including mom's live in boyfriend and maybe his mom as well. A real fine character...or not. Sounds like trouble in the making and he made it. Maybe MR dreamt of being famous. Looks like he got it. Now he getting his 15 minutes sitting in the prisoner's box. moo

That remote area southeast of Mount Forest, Ont., would have been familiar to Rafferty, who lived and worked nearby at various times in his life, court heard.
A previous witness testified she went to middle school with Rafferty in Drayton — about 35 kilometres south of Mount Forest — where he lived with an aunt and uncle, but he moved to the Toronto area for high school.
Later, he lived in Guelph, Ont. — where court has heard he and McClintic stopped with Tori in the car to buy garbage bags and a hammer — and worked for a landscaping company that had contracts at several landfills north of the city.

John Cruickshank, who owns the landscaping company, testified Friday that Rafferty worked for him in the summer of 2003 and from September 2005 to September 2006. The landfills Rafferty and his other employees worked at were between Guelph and Mount Forest, court heard, including one that was just a couple of side roads away from where Tori was killed.

Rachel Diwell, 23, who dated Rafferty when he lived in Guelph, said they were "inseparable" during their relationship of several months in 2006 or 2007. Many of their dates consisted of driving around back roads north of Guelph, she said.
"He always seemed to know where he was going or he had a map that he would look up," she said. "He always travelled on a lot of back roads to get places."

"He told me about his past, growing up, (it) wasn't the best," she testified. "He didn't really get along with his family at all, kind of had a bad childhood, got into a lot of trouble."
Rafferty told Cooney he didn't get along with his brother, she said. Court heard from another woman Thursday who said Rafferty told her he had a few brothers but wasn't close to them.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/ca...out-remarks-he-made-after-tori-147282055.html

 

[gardenia]

I think one has to admit that it was an exaggeration for the escort to say that she gave MR "all" of her money ... it isn't possible. I don't know why the defence didn't question her saying "all", because it simply cannot be true.

This reminds me of how some children talk - with exaggerated language.

JMO

 

[antiquegirl]

It is my firm belief that had the Crown discovered evidence of MTR having a history of physical abuse, threats, or coercion with regards to anyone in his past, he would have called these people to the stand and questioned them. Also, had any of the women he dated had any suspicions of untoward attention to their children, this, too, would have been brought up during the questioning. This type of evidence is far more relevant to the charges (sexual abuse and murder) than a lot of evidence we did hear. As Judge Heeney stated, how many women MTR dated is irrelevant to the charges. Violence and pedophilia would definitely be relevant. The fact that these questions were not asked indicates to me with certainty that there was no such history.

<modsnip> Had he threatened her into making this decision, or coerced her against her will, this would have been part of her testimony. Instead, she said they "discussed" it, like it was a mutual decision. I do not believe that he is the one who suggested this "profession". I do believe that it was a mutually beneficial relationship and that she thought it was an exclusive one that might lead to marriage. I doubt that was ever his intention.

The Crown was very successful in pointing out that MTR is a despicable human being with no morals and probably not much of a conscience. However, he did not convince me beyond a reasonable doubt that he is either violent or a pedophile.

MOO MOO MOO

 

[otto]

I disagree with your opinion, sorry, JMO

In what way is the income of the women that MR dated relevant to the murder trial? It seems to me that what is relevant is evidence can be presented to supports the theory that MR abducted, assaulted and murdered the child. The cash withdrawal, moments before the hammer purchase, is very relevant. How much the escort earned has nothing to do with this trial. If the objective is to discredit the witness testimony, then proof must be given that MR did not receive money from the escort.

How does the escort's income relate to a hypothetical drug debt that would result in the kidnapping of Victoria?

 

[Flossie JMO]

In what way is the income of the women that MR dated relevant to the murder trial? It seems to me that what is relevant is evidence can be presented to supports the theory that MR abducted, assaulted and murdered the child. The cash withdrawal, moments before the hammer purchase, is very relevant. How much the escort earned has nothing to do with this trial. If the objective is to discredit the witness testimony, then proof must be given that MR did not receive money from the escort.

How does the escort's income relate to a hypothetical drug debt that would result in the kidnapping of Victoria?

"The income of witnesses is not relevant to the trial."

I disagree with your opinion on that. JMO

We don't know the facts in this case, and we do not know that MR assaulted TS. JMO

 

[antiquegirl]

I'm of the opinion that the premeditation happened in the days before the abduction. When I hear that he discussed abducting children with women, I think he was testing the water. I think that he tested the water with TLM and discovered that she was prepared to go along with the idea. I would like to see his computer records ... I'm curious about what he liked to read and if it related to other child abduction cases.

"Once, Ms. Hodge said, they had a little chat about “abducting kids,” surely a fascinating subject for a child worker and a man who would soon be charged with precisely that crime.

It was he who raised the topic, she said. “He said how people take kids, abduct them, and they [the kids] grow up thinking they’re [the kidnappers] like their real parents,” she said."

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com...m-witnessing-horrifying-tori-stafford-murder/

(RSBM)

A laptop computer was found in his car on the evening MTR was arrested and seized by LE. (As was his mother's desktop from the house.) Had there been anything incriminating on that computer, the Crown surely would have raised it. The content found on the computer was glaringly absent from any evidence raised by the Crown. Whether he deleted anything prior to his arrest is irrelevant to his trial. It cannot be proved or it would have been raised. Only what is found is relevant, as the Crown has to prove his guilt.

It was also been discussed that MTR wiped his BlackBerry clean and therefore no earlier texts or private chats could be found for evidence. However, the people he contacted would not necessarily have wiped their phones and computers - and there were many, many contacts. It would seem reasonable that once LE had his contact numbers, those people would have had their phones and computers examined for evidence. That none was presented suggests there was nothing incriminating found there either.

As I've posted before, what was not brought into evidence by the Crown is almost as significant as what was.

JMO

 

[tmhco]

I think that several people called in a tip that the woman in the white coat looked like TLM. I think the gig was up and she knew it. Even Russell Williams knew when to throw in the towel during a police interrogation ... and he was far more intelligent and accomplished than TLM.

I should have been more clear. I meant when she confessed to be the one to commit the act of murder.

 

[tmhco]

I believe I made my point in my previous post. The jury only saw the edited tape. It leaves the impression that the entire visits were nothing but hugs and happiness. It's not unusual for people to hug when they arrive and hug when they leave. The larger portion of the visits could have been entirely different. It's misleading if it's meant to show what their visits were like.

Pretty certain Derenstine would have thought of that and objected. JMO

 

[otto]

It is my firm belief that had the Crown discovered evidence of MTR having a history of physical abuse, threats, or coercion with regards to anyone in his past, he would have called these people to the stand and questioned them. Also, had any of the women he dated had any suspicions of untoward attention to their children, this, too, would have been brought up during the questioning. This type of evidence is far more relevant to the charges (sexual abuse and murder) than a lot of evidence we did hear. As Judge Heeney stated, how many women MTR dated is irrelevant to the charges. Violence and pedophilia would definitely be relevant. The fact that these questions were not asked indicates to me with certainty that there was no such history.

As well, I remember rumours from three years ago that CS (the escort) was in that business long before she ever met MTR. Had he threatened her into making this decision, or coerced her against her will, this would have been part of her testimony. Instead, she said they "discussed" it, like it was a mutual decision. I do not believe that he is the one who suggested this "profession". I do believe that it was a mutually beneficial relationship and that she thought it was an exclusive one that might lead to marriage. I doubt that was ever his intention.

The Crown was very successful in pointing out that MTR is a despicable human being with no morals and probably not much of a conscience. However, he did not convince me beyond a reasonable doubt that he is either violent or a pedophile.

MOO MOO MOO

How could any of the girlfriends testify that MR had a deviant sexual interest in young girls if there was never a complaint or charges? All we know is that MR was never charged with inappropriate interactions with young girls prior to his arrest. Having suspicions about deviant sexual interests cannot be presented as evidence in a trial.

Since we know that MR and Victoria were together shortly before she was murdered and that Victoria was not wearing clothes below the waist ... what do you think he was doing if he isn't a pedophile?

 

[tmhco]

How could any of the girlfriends testify that MR had a deviant sexual interest in young girls if there was never a complaint or charges? All we know is that MR was never charged with inappropriate interactions with young girls prior to his arrest. Having suspicions about deviant sexual interests cannot be presented as evidence in a trial.

Since we know that MR and Victoria were together shortly before she was murdered and that Victoria was not wearing clothes below the waist ... what do you think he was doing if he isn't a pedophile?

I believe MR wanted a little girl. He had the desire and TLM had the nerve. Match made in hell. He finally found the girl to make all his dreams come true. JMO

 

[antiquegirl]

And with audio!!! MOO

There was no audio. The Genest employee testified to that. She couldn't even hear what they were saying while in the same room. Which makes me wonder, if TLM was on LE's radar early on, why they didn't have a recording device planted there during her visits. We were led to believe that TM's home was bugged, as was the entire "limo sting" operation. By the time of MTR's two visits to TLM (May 8 and May 12), LE should have been able to get warrants to monitor both TLM's phone calls and personal visits. Why didn't they?

JMO

London Free Press&#8207;@RaffertyLFP
The Genest inmates were allowed privacy for their calls but staff close by

AM980.ca&#8207;@AM980_Court
People at Genest have the right to private calls. Staff don't listen in.

 

[JayFriend]

Since MR and TLM both had all day to do whatever they wanted on April 8, 2009, did the premeditation for the murder occur somewhere between Woodstock and Guelph.

Why were the garbage bags and the hammer purchased at HD in Guelph, why not before leaving Woodstock. Did MR think that far ahead, wanting to capture TLM on camera purchasing these items and not himself?

Were they that naive, as to think the camera(s) would not have been rolling in Guelph in a HD, the way they obviously thought they would have been in Woodstock, so if MR wanted TLM on the video surveillance, what was the difference between store location.

Just MOO

I'm guessing the first order of business was to get out of the Woodstock area, where people would soon be looking for Tori. I believe it was only after TLM started talking to the police that they found out where they'd gone and went after the video surveillance recordings.

 

[Flossie JMO]

How could any of the girlfriends testify that MR had a deviant sexual interest in young girls if there was never a complaint or charges? All we know is that MR was never charged with inappropriate interactions with young girls prior to his arrest. Having suspicions about deviant sexual interests cannot be presented as evidence in a trial.Since we know that MR and Victoria were together shortly before she was murdered and that Victoria was not wearing clothes below the waist ... what do you think he was doing if he isn't a pedophile?

bbm, indeed, no evidence of a rape and no evidence MTR did it

 

[JayFriend]

IF MR had wanted to abduct & molest a child, why on earth would TLM choose a child that was known to her, who could identify her?

i can't get past this question.

jmo.

Maybe because they premeditated the killing?

 

[Flossie JMO]

How could any of the girlfriends testify that MR had a deviant sexual interest in young girls if there was never a complaint or charges? All we know is that MR was never charged with inappropriate interactions with young girls prior to his arrest. Having suspicions about deviant sexual interests cannot be presented as evidence in a trial.

Since we know that MR and Victoria were together shortly before she was murdered and that Victoria was not wearing clothes below the waist ... what do you think he was doing if he isn't a pedophile?

JMO, I don't see any proof MR did anything sexual to VS. Do you have proof?

 

[Flossie JMO]

Maybe because they premeditated the killing?

Could be, JMO, you may be right, I don't believe it was random jmo, and don't think MR was behind it. JMO